2008 Presidential Candidates Comparison ( Side By side)... DOn't know what to think.

[rbella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by valabdalnabi No , I mean the judgement for: 1. not voting to go to war with Iraq-for supposed weapons of mass destruction that they never found....

That would be a difficult task since he wasn't in the Senate at the time of the vote.

 

[valabdalnabi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella That would be a difficult task since he wasn't in the Senate at the time of the vote.

McCain was in the senate at the time of the vote.

resource:
U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

Obama wasnt a US senator at that time, I know he was running to be a US senator and was currently at that time a state senator for Illinois. But he opposed the war before the vote in the senate passed it. Here is a written copy of his speech:

Barack Obama and Joe Biden: The Change We Need |

Opposition from the start: YouTube - Barack Obama on Iraq, Opposition from the Start

 

[rbella]

^^^My bad, it seemed you were speaking about Obama's judgement regarding not voting for the war.

 

[valabdalnabi]

What about MCain's current/future age, health and mental clarity.
He has had 4 bouts of melanoma the deadliest form of skin cancer. The average life expectancy here in the USA is 77 yrs. old. for a male and he is currently 72. But for him with his demographics and all being a POW actually gives him a shorter life expectancy . His father died at age 70 and his grandfather at age 61-heart problems. His mother is still alive-but woman do live longer than men. He smoked 2 pack of cigarettes a day for over thirty yrs. of his life. Not to mention how presidents age rather quickly from the stress and pressure of being president.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by valabdalnabi What about MCain's current/future age, health and mental clarity. He has had 4 bouts of melanoma the deadliest form of skin cancer. The average life exspectancy here in the USA is 77 yrs. old. and he is currently 72. But for him with his demographics and all being a POW actually gives him a shorter life expectancy . His father died at age 70 and his grandfather at age 61-heart problems. His mother is still alive-but woman do live longer than men. He smoked 2 pack of cigarettes a day for over thirty yrs. of his life. Not to mention how presidents age rather quickly from the stress and pressure of being president.

What about grasping for whatever weak argument we possibly can because on simple general principle and nothing else we're not voting for a candidate but don't have a real reason not to?

Ok, GO!

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by valabdalnabi No , I mean the judgement for: 1. not voting to go to war with Iraq-for supposed weapons of mass destruction that they never found......

We could get into the arguement about the weakening of the Intelligence infrastructures and operations during the Clinton years that lead to a lot of the information coming out of Iraq (which the war was based on), but back to the matter at hand...



******

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 107th Congress - 2nd Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate


Vote Summary

Question: On the Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 )
Vote Number: 237 Vote Date: October 11, 2002, 12:50 AM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Joint Resolution Passed
Measure Number: H.J.Res. 114
Measure Title: A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Vote Counts: YEAs 77
NAYs 23
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State


Alphabetical by Senator Name Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea


*****



Uh oh....is that the bad judgement you are talking about? What if Obama dies in office? I'm just bringing it up since McCain dying in office seems to be a favourite topic for so many.

That's nice that Obama had the luxury of not having to make a decision on Senate record for this resolution.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Here's an interesting little article for those who are convinced John McCain is going to die next February.

Quote:

McCain, Obama healthy for eight years as President, says actuarial firm New York, Sept.26 (ANI): An actuarial firm in the United States has said that both John McCain and Barack Obama would be cleared for insurance coverage if they approached in their capacity as President of the United States. Obama has a history of smoking, and McCain is 72 years old with a history of skin cancer. But neither candidate is a bad bet to live through two terms as president of the United States, according to a statistical analysis performed by an actuarial firm. According to John M. Bragg and Associates Inc., an Atlanta-based actuarial firm, McCain has 8.4 healthy years ahead of him, making him eligible, albeit barely, to serve two terms as the country's commander-in-chief. Obama can look forward to more than two decades - 21.9 years to be exact - of healthy living. Healthy years differ from life expectancy in that they refer to the number of years a person will live without requiring assisted living or suffer a debilitating illness such as Alzheimer's disease, not to the average number of years a person has left to live. Bragg and Associates decided to compute the candidates' healthy years as a "public service" to voters. Either candidate has not contracted the company, nor is it endorsing one. "Health expectancy is one of our specialties," owner John Bragg told FOXNews.com. "We've been doing this for more than 20 years, and we were interested in knowing whether the two candidates would be healthy for two terms. We had access through their Web sites to review their health situations. So we took a look," he added. Actuaries specialize in risk. Using lifestyle and health information, they calculate a person's risk of injury, sickness, disability and death. Among the pros and cons used to calculate McCain's longevity were his four bouts with melanoma - the deadliest type of skin cancer - as well as his degenerative arthritis, still-active 97-year-old mother and his treadmill EKG, which is in line with someone 10 years younger. To gauge Obama's health, Brooks took into account that he is also in extremely good health, with low cholesterol, triglyceride and blood pressure levels, as well as a very low body fat percentage. On the downside, however, Obama is considered a smoker, even though he has recently quit. Obama's medical records also noted some mild respiratory problems and a family history of cancer on his mother's side. But Brooks said neither is expected to substantially impact his longevity. Although the numbers show that Obama has more than double the number of healthy years ahead of him than McCain does, Brooks said that has more to do with age than with health. Brooks also noted that the healthy-year calculations are misleading in that they put Obama at about age 69 when his health starts to fail and McCain at better than 80 years old. "It has less to do with health and more with survival of the fittest," Brooks said. "You get more credit the longer you live. McCain already has 25 years on Obama, so Obama still has to survive the next 25 years before he can get credit for them." (ANI)

McCain, Obama healthy for eight years as President, says actuarial firm - Yahoo! India News

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by valabdalnabi No , I mean the judgement for: 1. not voting to go to war with Iraq-for supposed weapons of mass destruction that they never found.... 2. not telling the american people that the fundamentals of the economy ARE STRONG and the next day the economy falls....etc.etc..... McCain's EXPERIENCE is stumped by his POOR JUDGMENT. Not just on the war in IRAQ but also on his failure to learn economics during his many years of service while sitting in a body politic that is supposed to care DEEPLY about economics.

Ohhhhhh.
My bad.
I didn't catch that part.

I mean...Yeesh. Here I was thinking that we should take it all into consideration, not just the parts we like.


Carry on.

 

[elegant-one]

^^^ Exactly. I was just thinking about posting this whilst doing my errands this morning.

(referring to Mac_Whores post)

 

[red]

In my opinion, and I am not saying this as a McCain supporter, but as an observer of politics, McCain won the debate. Obama fumferred and stuttered and at times looked/sounded/acted like a petulant child. I think he memorized lots of stuff as if he was a student studying for a big test and just ran through the litany of things he crammed. McCain was much more in sync with the complexities of the foreign policy issues.

Here’s a funny exchange from a radio show:

Host: “Why are you voting for Obama – is it because he went to Harvard?”

Liberal caller: “That’s one of the main reasons”

Host: “So, because he went to Harvard, that makes him qualified?”

Liberal caller: “It makes him smart and capable.”

Host: “George W. Bush is the only president to have graduated from Harvard Business School. Is he smart”?

Liberal caller: “…uh….he graduated from Yale”.

Host: “He graduated from Yale and got his MBA from Harvard. So is he smart and does that make him qualified?”

Liberal caller: “No. He is not smart and is not qualified”

Host: “So, why is Obama smart and qualified because he graduated from Harvard but George W. Bush is not?

Liberal caller: “………..”

;-)

 

[elegant-one]

Quote:

Originally Posted by red In my opinion, and I am not saying this as a McCain supporter, but as an observer of politics, McCain won the debate. Obama fumferred and stuttered and at times looked/sounded/acted like a petulant child. I think he memorized lots of stuff as if he was a student studying for a big test and just ran through the litany of things he crammed. McCain was much more in sync with the complexities of the foreign policy issues.

That's pretty much how I personally viewed it too.

 

[M.A.C. head.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purrtykitty Just because someone is required to retire upon a certain age does not mean all knowledge he/she possesses is immediately purged from the brain. Personal knowledge of the inner workings of a specific system (such as the military) is much more helpful to one's decision-making process than relying just on the opinions of advisors. Yes, and both have achieved a status that respect should be displayed. McCain acknowledged Obama's status as Senator, Obama should've been courteous enough to acknowledge the same. Great...listening while writing is multitasking.

And from MY point of view, if they are both adults in the same standing, why is it so wrong for Obama as John, the man and not John, the senator?

Looking someone in the face while speaking is multitasking as well.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.A.C. head. And from MY point of view, if they are both adults in the same standing, why is it so wrong for Obama as John, the man and not John, the senator? Looking someone in the face while speaking is multitasking as well.

For the same reason it's wrong for a child to call a parent by first name, or a teacher by first name. Even as an adult, I don't call my old teachers by name. It's disrespectful and displays a lack of consideration for their position.
Why is simple respect hard to extend?

 

[elegant-one]

Quote:

Originally Posted by valabdalnabi No , I mean the judgement for: 2. not telling the american people that the fundamentals of the economy ARE STRONG and the next day the economy falls....etc.etc..... McCain's ....failure to learn economics during his many years of service while sitting in a body politic that is supposed to care DEEPLY about economics.

First of all, the fundamentals of the economy are we the people, the everyday hard working tax paying people & business owners. That's part of what McCain was referring to.

Second, McCain does understand full well about a very basic & necessary fact that the tax cuts must be made permanent, lower tax rates grow the economy & help families & businesses.

Again, Obama wants to grow an already bloated Government with more & more programs & entitlements (he listed them in his speech).The government does not create wealth or grow the economy - they only spend.

 

[M.A.C. head.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer For the same reason it's wrong for a child to call a parent by first name, or a teacher by first name. Even as an adult, I don't call my old teachers by name. It's disrespectful and displays a lack of consideration for their position. Why is simple respect hard to extend?

It's a difference of opinion then, obviously.

I don't consider a child calling a teacher or parent by their first name to be comparable to the instance we're speaking of.

I don't think I would address my old teachers by first name either, mostly out of habit. But if I were an older adult, I would refer to someone [whom I was familiar with] by their first name. *shrugs* Difference of opinion.

 

[Shadowy Lady]

I watched and enjoyed the debate even as a non-American and someone that doesn't really support either party. I think pretty much all Republicans will say that Obama was rude for calling McCain "John" and Democrats will say that McCain was rude for not looking at Obama in the face.

I doubt the debate contents and how the candidates behaved will change any of the supporters' minds.

Looking forward to the VP debate now

I have an early flight Friday morning but I'll still try and watch it.

 

[valabdalnabi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* Here's an interesting little article for those who are convinced John McCain is going to die next February. McCain, Obama healthy for eight years as President, says actuarial firm - Yahoo! India News

"Either candidate has not contracted the company, nor is it endorsing one."
"Health expectancy is one of our specialties," owner John Bragg told FOXNews.com."

............... from your interesting little article.......


FOX NEWS????-enough said.

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by valabdalnabi Either candidate has not contracted the company, nor is it endorsing one. "Health expectancy is one of our specialties," owner John Bragg told FOXNews.com."----all from you intersting little article....... FOX NEWS????-enough said.

Well if neither candidate contracted or endorsed the actuarial firm, that would suggest impariality. The fact that Fox news reported on the actuarial findings after they were done, doesn't mean anything in regards to the report's data integrity.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by valabdalnabi "Either candidate has not contracted the company, nor is it endorsing one." "Health expectancy is one of our specialties," owner John Bragg told FOXNews.com." ............... from your interesting little article....... FOX NEWS????-enough said.

So when someone grants an interview to Fox News, the entire article is false? Do you see that the article is sourced from someone other than Fox News and that the actuarial firm ran these numbers on their own impetus?



Here you go. An article from a month and a half ago that says the exact same thing and makes no mention of Fox News. From the AJC.

Quote:

Monday, August 4, 2008, 02:24 PM The Atlanta Journal-Constitution An Atlanta actuarial firm says both presidential candidates John McCain and Barack Obama “can reasonably be expected to serve two full terms in good health.” But just barely. The 30-year-old Bragg actuarial company, which specializes in morbidity and mortality calculations, gives 71-year-old McCain a “healthy expectancy” of 8.4 years, taking into account his four bouts with melanoma of the skin. Barack Obama, who turned 47 today, can expect 21.9 years of good health — a forecast shortened by 10 percent or so by his history of cigarette smoking. “Either candidate can be expected to serve two full terms, without age or health being an issue,” said John M. Bragg, the firm chairman. The company drew a distinction “health expectancy” and the more usual term “life expectancy.” “In this analysis, ‘healthy’ means the person does not require the care provided by an assisted living facility and is free of Alzheimer’s disease,” Bragg said. Age may be second only to race as a volatile issue in this presidential campaign. McCain, who has another birthday on Aug. 29, has taken pains to portray himself as a man of both vigor and good genes — sometimes bringing along his 96-year-old mother to campaign events. James C. Brooks, a senior Bragg actuary, said the firm ran the numbers on Obama and McCain out of the same curiosity that most voters have. Brooks said McCain’s health expectancy because of the candidate’s experience with skin cancer. “Less so than the cigarette smoking of Barack, but more so because he’s older,” he said. The years assigned to each candidates are averages based on demographically similar pools of people, Brooks said. “They’re not predictors,” he said. Either candidate could beat his expectancy numbers, or fall short. Accuracy could also depend on whether the health details publicly revealed by the candidates have been accurate, Brooks added. The Bragg actuarial study is to appear next month in a newsletter published by the Society of Actuaries.

Atlanta actuarial firm: McCain has 8.4 "healthy" years left, and Obama has 21.9 | Political Insider | ajc.com


And just in case that's not non-Fox News-y enough, here's ANOTHER article from a different paper where a DIFFERENT statistician reaches a similar conclusion.

Quote:

An MIT statistical brainiac says John McCain would not only survive his term if elected president, but would likely do so in good health, turning the actuarial tables on critics who question the GOP nominee’s age and physical condition. Boston-based actuary Stephen Kraysler gives McCain a 94.5 percent chance of surviving his first term, while his Democratic opponent Sen. Barack Obama has a 99.5 percent chance. “People are concerned about McCain’s age, but these numbers prove he’s not going to keel over anytime soon,” Kraysler said. Actuarial science is used by insurance companies to assess risk based on statistical tables and models. McCain’s health has gone under increased scrutiny since the 72-year-old chose Alaska governor Sarah Palin to be his No. 2 last month. Democratic opponents, including Boston native and Tinseltown action stud Matt Damon, have painted Palin as inexperienced and say she could be “just a heartbeat away” from taking over the Oval Office. But Kraylser argued the Social Security actuarial tables used by Damon have a higher mortality rate because they are making estimations for about 100,000 people in the same age group and are less accurate. Another actuarial company has already said McCain has a 92 percent chance of surviving through two terms, and said he has another 8.4 years left in good health. “I’ve seen remarks that (McCain) has a 1 in 3 probability of dying. That’s greatly overstated,” said James Brooks, a senior actuary at the Atlanta-based Bragg’s, a company that specializes in predicting mortality and morbidity. Obama has a 98.5 percent chance of surviving his first term, and is expected to have another 21.9 years of healthy living, according to Brooks. Brooks said he based his projections on the histories of men with similar ages and medical backgrounds. In McCain’s case, that means a 72-year-old man with a history of melanoma and degenerative arthritis, and for Obama, that’s a 44-year-old with a history of smoking. “Either candidate can be expected to serve two full terms, without age or health being an issue,” said John M. Bragg, chairman of the firm. Stephen Hess, a former staffer in both former Presidents Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon administrations, said considering both the health of the presidential candidate and whether or not a vice presidential candidate is fit to take over is fair game in a campaign. “The only reason we have a vice president, basically, is to succeed the president if it comes to that,” Hess said. “However, John McCain would appear to be doing very well. If family history is any indication, his mother is 96 years old.” Kraysler argued that while the question of health is fair, the fear of McCain’s age is not. “Voters aren’t wrong to ask the questions. They are wrong in assuming it’s a huge risk, because the numbers just don’t show that,” Kraysler said.

Actuary: John McCain a survivor - BostonHerald.com

 

[red]

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.A.C. head. And from MY point of view, if they are both adults in the same standing, why is it so wrong for Obama as John, the man and not John, the senator? Looking someone in the face while speaking is multitasking as well.

Well if they were at a White House barbecue than its cool to call each other in a more informal manner ;-)

But this is a presidential debate on national television, where you defend your position that you’re the best person to do the job. Part of this, as future head of state, is to be able to address people using the correct protocols under every circumstance. Obama lacks this “filter” mechanism, and probably thought by calling McCain “John” would somehow make him seem more as his equal or peer … but had the opposite effect. This “familiarity” was not correct in these circumstances, that’s all.