2008 Presidential Candidates Comparison ( Side By side)... DOn't know what to think.
- Thread starter SkylarV217
- Start date
- Status
*Stargazer*
Well-known member
Quote:
I'm English. Up until my son was born last year, I spent a good part of each year back at home. I know the NHS. But I'm sure your experience with it 20 years ago gives you some kind of perspective on how the NHS works now.
Originally Posted by missworld
I thought you were referring to full socialized/government run medicals systems such as the British NHS and before you do attack it, I lived in Britain for a while back in the eighties and seeing a doctor there is like seeing one here but without the payment at the end of it! As for Medicaid, I had Medicaid and I saw the same doctor at the same high quality practice that I see now with my private insurance. So for me at least it worked well. missworld |
I'm English. Up until my son was born last year, I spent a good part of each year back at home. I know the NHS. But I'm sure your experience with it 20 years ago gives you some kind of perspective on how the NHS works now.
red
Well-known member
Dear Ms World
You've often displayed links to back up your assertions on Obama's position, I thank you for that.
Fact:
1) His spending proposals can’t be paid for by just raising taxes on those making over 250K. There just aren’t enough people to tax at that level.
2) He is not cutting taxes for anyone. A tax cut is a cut in rates. He is not cutting rates at all. He is offering a tax credit which is a check cut to you by the government paid for by someone else.
3) 40% of Americans don’t pay Federal Income tax.
4) The costs of raising those taxes on the job producers will result in less jobs and higher prices. That will be an added tax on everyone else.
5) He wants to raise capital gains taxes killing what we need most of right now – investment. Banks need to raise capital – they cannot if people will be dissuaded from investing.
6) He claims to want to eliminate capital gains on small businesses – small businesses don’t pay capital gains taxes. They are taxed at the individual rate.
You've often displayed links to back up your assertions on Obama's position, I thank you for that.
Fact:
1) His spending proposals can’t be paid for by just raising taxes on those making over 250K. There just aren’t enough people to tax at that level.
2) He is not cutting taxes for anyone. A tax cut is a cut in rates. He is not cutting rates at all. He is offering a tax credit which is a check cut to you by the government paid for by someone else.
3) 40% of Americans don’t pay Federal Income tax.
4) The costs of raising those taxes on the job producers will result in less jobs and higher prices. That will be an added tax on everyone else.
5) He wants to raise capital gains taxes killing what we need most of right now – investment. Banks need to raise capital – they cannot if people will be dissuaded from investing.
6) He claims to want to eliminate capital gains on small businesses – small businesses don’t pay capital gains taxes. They are taxed at the individual rate.
Dizzy
Well-known member
Quote:
With our rapidly growing unemployment, this will change. And, for the record, Americans would do these jobs. Who do you think did them before we had a massive influx of immigrants? And we DO still have Americans doing some of these jobs. But fact remains that you wouldn't want to pay an American $7.25/hr when you can pay an illegal $2/hr for the same job. We cannot compete.
Quote:
Eh, a bit of an exaggeration, it's really only a century and a half. The Monroe Doctrine (1823) was our first real foray into international affairs, and really it was laughed at by the Europeans so it was more symbolic than anything, then manifest destiny didn't help our relations much. But really, we weren't even on the global scope of affairs until after WWII, so while we did intervene in places like DR and Cuba, what's now considered the "third world" (it's technically now called the Developing World since the fall of communism) was destined to experience problems from its original colonization. And who colonized majority of that land? The Portugese and the Spanish. Their problems are rooted in events that took place far beyond the US's Revolutionary War. We haven't made anything better, but we sure didn't create all their problems. So this isn't quite accurate.
Quote:
And this hasn't happened to the US? Drive through middle America sometime. You don't see the family owned farms anymore. My family owned a farm in PA for generations before it simply wasn't profitable anymore. There are many people who had no choice but to sell out to the huge companies- it was either that or keep losing money. It wasn't just the devloping world that was hurt by that legislation, but then again this is just another example of why not to trust a government.
Quote:
But the problem is that we can't support all of them that are coming. Our infrastructure is severely overtaxed and outdated. Our budget can't handle the shortfalls caused by the fact that their wages aren't enough to cover the cost of life in America so they disproportionately use public services. Our citizens can't afford their own lives (for whatever reason) so how can we ask them to cover someone else? When they can't afford themselves how can they be asked to help others?
Quote:
Erm- we've alwayslived in a global society, the exchange of ideas and people has just become faster due to the technological advances. The Roman high classes spoke Greek because their educators were Greek; the Silk Road went from the Chinese through the Parthian empire and ended soemwhere in the Roman civilization; European colonization of the Americas is another example of globalization.
We've always had a global society, and yet there have always been boarders. Try to live in Mexico illegally and see how that works out. It hasn't gone too well for the Guatemalan migrants.
Quote:
And take a look at WHY there is no middle class there. We've put so many companies into the Developing World (not just the US, but all Developed nations) but then we put the local guy out of business. IE: the local guy who ran a shoe making business out of his home can't compete with a corporation anymore- the corporation can always produce a higher volume for a lower cost; they have the resources to absorb the shrink. The guy down the street can't. Truthfully, if we wanted to truly help, we might as well leave the developing world to do it by itself and merely become trade partners. But politically it would mean a power loss- not going to happen by any major players.
Quote:
Both parties have been bastardized from their original platforms. Most people who HAD to pick a party to vote in primaries (like NY) might register as Republican because it's been historically been the party that promised to leave us the hell alone.
But, for the record, JFK was the one to completely change the immigration policies without regard to all of the potential outcomes. JFK was a reckless president. LBJ created the Great Society programs, which encouraged growth. Without restrictions, what else was Reagan suppose to do? CQ has an amazing array of peer-reviewed articles about the historical context and political reasons and ramifications of that amnesty. Check it out if you have access to it. It's very interesting.
Quote:
Hah, they've been doing this since the Jacksonian era. This is just politics as usual.
| Originally Posted by SuSana
I'm sorry but I highly doubt that. That is work that nobody wants to do. You're right, nobody forces them to come here, but if they had a choice I know for a fact they would never choose those jobs, and no American citizen would willingly do those jobs. |
With our rapidly growing unemployment, this will change. And, for the record, Americans would do these jobs. Who do you think did them before we had a massive influx of immigrants? And we DO still have Americans doing some of these jobs. But fact remains that you wouldn't want to pay an American $7.25/hr when you can pay an illegal $2/hr for the same job. We cannot compete.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by ShugAvery2001 Our foreign policies have forced them to come here. We've raped third world countries for centuries! Our countries leadership have orchestrated this. |
Eh, a bit of an exaggeration, it's really only a century and a half. The Monroe Doctrine (1823) was our first real foray into international affairs, and really it was laughed at by the Europeans so it was more symbolic than anything, then manifest destiny didn't help our relations much. But really, we weren't even on the global scope of affairs until after WWII, so while we did intervene in places like DR and Cuba, what's now considered the "third world" (it's technically now called the Developing World since the fall of communism) was destined to experience problems from its original colonization. And who colonized majority of that land? The Portugese and the Spanish. Their problems are rooted in events that took place far beyond the US's Revolutionary War. We haven't made anything better, but we sure didn't create all their problems. So this isn't quite accurate.
Quote:
| Do you realize that in Mexico and other third world countries, that the farmers there can't even make a living farming anymore! Why, it's partly due to unregulated free market capitalism. Our government initiated trade deals with these countries that benifited american corporate farmers. So instead of these poor people being able to make a living off the land farming feeding themselves etc., now most of their food is IMPORTED from other places. |
And this hasn't happened to the US? Drive through middle America sometime. You don't see the family owned farms anymore. My family owned a farm in PA for generations before it simply wasn't profitable anymore. There are many people who had no choice but to sell out to the huge companies- it was either that or keep losing money. It wasn't just the devloping world that was hurt by that legislation, but then again this is just another example of why not to trust a government.
Quote:
| Many of them have no way to earn money! These people respond the same way people from oklahoma responded during the Dust Bowl, when drought caused farmers to go into forclosure. These people did the same thing the Mexicans are doing, THEY MIGRATED. How would you feel? Would you watch your children starve and stay put? |
But the problem is that we can't support all of them that are coming. Our infrastructure is severely overtaxed and outdated. Our budget can't handle the shortfalls caused by the fact that their wages aren't enough to cover the cost of life in America so they disproportionately use public services. Our citizens can't afford their own lives (for whatever reason) so how can we ask them to cover someone else? When they can't afford themselves how can they be asked to help others?
Quote:
| I think that, one thing alot of you need to understand is, WE LIVE IN A GLOBAL SOCIETY! There are no boarders anymore. And it's not just in the U.S. either. it's going on in Europe and China, it's going on everywhere. |
Erm- we've alwayslived in a global society, the exchange of ideas and people has just become faster due to the technological advances. The Roman high classes spoke Greek because their educators were Greek; the Silk Road went from the Chinese through the Parthian empire and ended soemwhere in the Roman civilization; European colonization of the Americas is another example of globalization.
We've always had a global society, and yet there have always been boarders. Try to live in Mexico illegally and see how that works out. It hasn't gone too well for the Guatemalan migrants.
Quote:
| I don't think some of you all appreciate just how much it sucks to live in a developing country as opposed to living in "the west". Many more people here have the opportunity not to be poor. In many of these countries THERE IS NO MIDDLE CLASS. |
And take a look at WHY there is no middle class there. We've put so many companies into the Developing World (not just the US, but all Developed nations) but then we put the local guy out of business. IE: the local guy who ran a shoe making business out of his home can't compete with a corporation anymore- the corporation can always produce a higher volume for a lower cost; they have the resources to absorb the shrink. The guy down the street can't. Truthfully, if we wanted to truly help, we might as well leave the developing world to do it by itself and merely become trade partners. But politically it would mean a power loss- not going to happen by any major players.
Quote:
| One thing I think is funny is that so many republicans hate this but, the largest influxes of immigrants from the south occured during the Regan and Bush administrations. I mean Regan granted Amnesty to 4 MILLION illigal immigrants and why .. so the 'free market' could take advantage of cheap labor. |
Both parties have been bastardized from their original platforms. Most people who HAD to pick a party to vote in primaries (like NY) might register as Republican because it's been historically been the party that promised to leave us the hell alone.
But, for the record, JFK was the one to completely change the immigration policies without regard to all of the potential outcomes. JFK was a reckless president. LBJ created the Great Society programs, which encouraged growth. Without restrictions, what else was Reagan suppose to do? CQ has an amazing array of peer-reviewed articles about the historical context and political reasons and ramifications of that amnesty. Check it out if you have access to it. It's very interesting.
Quote:
| It's unfortunate, so much of the voting public is UNAWARE of what is really taking place here. I know why funding for education will always be insufficient. The government benifits from having an uninformed electorate. With FOX and humans tendency to encourage their viewers to make decisions based on their own irrational fears (ala mushroom cloud and bush war good), it's guaranteed that the voting public will be EASILY manipulated! |
Hah, they've been doing this since the Jacksonian era. This is just politics as usual.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
If there's work to be done and an ablebodied person willfully chooses not to do it, why is it my responsibility, and the responsibility of people who ARE willing to work, to provide that person with health benefits? Or anything else, really?
| Originally Posted by SuSana
I'm sorry but I highly doubt that. That is work that nobody wants to do. You're right, nobody forces them to come here, but if they had a choice I know for a fact they would never choose those jobs, and no American citizen would willingly do those jobs. |
If there's work to be done and an ablebodied person willfully chooses not to do it, why is it my responsibility, and the responsibility of people who ARE willing to work, to provide that person with health benefits? Or anything else, really?
SkylarV217
Well-known member
Princessa you are right, I don't have experience with immigrant farmers. My experience in the south working in both the general medical field and occupational health ( preforming pre employment drug screens) I saw the amount of "immigrants" that came into our country Illegally taking jobs in factories and using other peoples names so 15 (was the count by the time I left) people could use the same insurance card as "Pt. X".
Where I live the already stretched educational system is having to hire several teachers to focus on English as a Second Language classes and Inclusion teachers.
From my experience all i have seen is a drain. My thing is I have NO problem with Legal Immigration, but I feel Illegal Immigration Hurts the economy more that it helps it. Business owners that don not do the illegal thing and hire citizens are suffering and going out of business because the bussiness owners that hire cheaper work.
Some of the actual costs to the taxpayers can be found here:
FAIR: The Estimated Cost of Illegal Immigration
Where I live the already stretched educational system is having to hire several teachers to focus on English as a Second Language classes and Inclusion teachers.
From my experience all i have seen is a drain. My thing is I have NO problem with Legal Immigration, but I feel Illegal Immigration Hurts the economy more that it helps it. Business owners that don not do the illegal thing and hire citizens are suffering and going out of business because the bussiness owners that hire cheaper work.
Some of the actual costs to the taxpayers can be found here:
FAIR: The Estimated Cost of Illegal Immigration
elegant-one
Well-known member
Quote:
All I can say to the above is God Bless Ya! What an incredible, honest, real point - very emotionally moving to me.
| Originally Posted by red
I have very little sympathy ... tell you why. I AM AN IMMIGRANT!!!! we waited on a quota system for 10 years to come to the US. We had a medical exam, had to prove we were financially sound to live in the US ... we went through the legal channels, waited patiently until we were called. When I went to school, I didn't have bi-lingual education, I was thrown into the deep end of the pool not understanding a word of English  We asked for no handouts, my father worked, paid taxes, I learned English, we assimilated into this society, we gave back. I'm proud of my heritage, but I'm red, white & blue, stars & stripes for ever, and this is why this democrat, is voting for John McCain. |
All I can say to the above is God Bless Ya! What an incredible, honest, real point - very emotionally moving to me.
Chikky
Well-known member
Quote:
Not really. Obama started most answers with an 'uuuhh', which is a huge no-no is speechmaking. And I found it highly annoying. Is it his voice? Like, the tone you're reffering to? Because people I know are voting for him based on how 'sexy' his voice is and I find that appalling. They don't even agree with him. *shrugs* I really don't care though, it was really a kinda silly interjection into this other conversation, hehe.
Quote:
Hehe. Of course they're politicians. Of course they all dodged. But none moreso than Obama. Even people I know that love him agreed to that. They agree that he'll more likely lie to you, too, but they still like him.
So I shouldn't have said '90%'; like I said, I don't care. I should have said 'most'. We were too busy laughing at how he dodged 'most' questions to count. It was sort of a game, to help pass the frustrating time. (Yes, we listened to what they said, of course.)
Anyhow, I say who cares. Everyone has their own opinion and I don't care what anyone else's is enough to fight about it. I just take to heart that everyone has them, and they aren't always the same as mine.
| Originally Posted by missworld
And he's still way more eloquent then McCain! |
Not really. Obama started most answers with an 'uuuhh', which is a huge no-no is speechmaking. And I found it highly annoying. Is it his voice? Like, the tone you're reffering to? Because people I know are voting for him based on how 'sexy' his voice is and I find that appalling. They don't even agree with him. *shrugs* I really don't care though, it was really a kinda silly interjection into this other conversation, hehe.
Quote:
| Both of them dodged questions, there politicians, and they will be judged on their performance. I watched that debate and I contest you 90% figure. I think that shows bias on your part needless to say I support Obama and a definitely biased. missworld |
Hehe. Of course they're politicians. Of course they all dodged. But none moreso than Obama. Even people I know that love him agreed to that. They agree that he'll more likely lie to you, too, but they still like him.
So I shouldn't have said '90%'; like I said, I don't care. I should have said 'most'. We were too busy laughing at how he dodged 'most' questions to count. It was sort of a game, to help pass the frustrating time. (Yes, we listened to what they said, of course.)
Anyhow, I say who cares. Everyone has their own opinion and I don't care what anyone else's is enough to fight about it. I just take to heart that everyone has them, and they aren't always the same as mine.
CantAffordMAC
Well-known member
lizardprincesa
Well-known member
Quote:
The aroma of onions was always so pungent at Harvest time.
Uuummm....Pulaski Highway in September...
I never imagined how I'd actually grow to ~love~
that beautiful exotic perfume, (although I wouldn't want to wear it.) The the Black Dirt region has, or had, the 2nd largest onion crop in the US.
My memories are tied in with the sharing of knowledge and culture with beautiful Mestizo people in the kitchens of various labor camps.
:Waves "Hi" to red from nearby county:
Quote:
Quote:
Jumping "over the fence" is probably one of the *easy* ways for the people to arrive here. Sometimes, well....can I say sewage drains under the ground, walking for miles in the desert with no food or drink for Days...
Desperation. I know...not our fault. That's true! Still...Humanity???
Government corruption (in neighboring countries, too) is a weighty ingredient in the formula; you realize the unspoken agreement several growers and businesses have about various forms of id...I know of places which were raided (an area factory comes to mind); the people were taken to NYCity, held for a few hours, until the factory owner arrived to pay a fine.
Then it was back to work, as usual.
Robbery and rape, separation of families, all occur along that treacherous border...(on *both* sides of that "fence".) I know a mother who was separated from her 3-yr-old daughter for an entire week, when crossing time was arranged. I believe it was an absolute Miracle they were reunited.
I knew a family whose males had been coming
all the way from the rural central Mexico, for 9 months at a time, since before the Amnesty Act. At the beginning, their house was a tiny 4-walled wooden structure with no roof, to speak of. But when I met the family, in Mexico, years later, they were finally on the brink of bringing running water directly into the most remote areas of the beautiful Sierran landscape; the children of the family were finally able to build small concrete houses for their separate families, and I heard talk of one of the older daughters having transportation so she could continue going to school after she became 12.
And we here all had a lovely salad to eat.
Most of the single males I met in that job had only been to school for a few years (under 6 years.) However, from speaking with them and learning about their values, I wondered (and will always wonder) why Life is so unfair; I could imagine many of them succeeding in medical or law school...Most of the men were never at home when their children were born, or when a relative passed away...
I shouldn't have started....I could go on for pages and pages....
Have you ever spoken with these people? Several of them do not speak Spanish as a first language; did you know that? I didn't, until I got to know them...for some reason, some of the people felt embarrassed about their native languages. The people who gave me the honor of their trust were humble, caring, homesick, and yes, extremely hard working people.
Quote:
Yes, I've read it, and will comment later on your reason. I am curious, however...I wonder if you've ever visited the labor camps where the families live. Have you met the children of these inter-state migrant workers whose parents follow the crops? Most of those people are ~Americans.~ I think you probably know that, but I've met so many people who assume they are "illegal aliens." These people have a 50% dropout rate, as their school year is interrupted, usually at least twice a year. But their educational interruption is, by far, not their most immediate issue. Their most pressing issues are being able to eat and to build homes for their families.
And then about those we are saying are *not* here legally...have you seen some of their housing? Ever seen the camp run by "los gemelos" (the twins)?
Hopefully, it's been improved, as they had been in violation of various Health Dept. regulations.But again, that was a few years ago. I have since lived abroad and returned with a family of my own.
Quote:
You have done so well! My most sincere and Heartfelt congratulations to you and your family, red. I didn't know you were an immigrant, as your English is flawless.
My grandfather and all my great-grandparents did as you did. Most came via Ellis Island, where their names were changed (I'm sure my miaden name is the result of an Immigration Authority at Ellis Island not understanding my great-grandfather's name.)
We are a "Country of Immigrants"...Ironically, as the Human Race has acted throughout history, since Ancient Times, we were not the first inhabitants of the Land which we call The United States of America. You know this.
In fact, if you closely examine facial features of people from all corners of the world, you will see similarities...Perhaps we are all from the same place, originally. A strong case can be made for the indigenous people of North, Central and South America having been here before those of us who are of European ancestry. "Ironically," these same "illegal aliens" are struggling to enter Land which was originally of their own people, in order to feed their families.
Quote:
That's wonderful, and my family has the very same story.
Many of the "illegal immigrants" do not want to be citizens. In fact, the people are not trying to steal jobs, and have little access to handouts...
They do pay taxes, however. If you have the opportunity to visit with any of the people in your area one Day, say a group of yong men...I think they'll (very shyly, and with varying levels of English) tell you they miss their mothers, their wives, their siblings. They will probably not complain much about their often sub-standard housing (I don't know if it is still true that people in prison here are entitled to more living space than farmworkers...it was still true a few years ago...) The guys will probably not complain about their work hours, unless it is to say they don't have enough work. Those who stay to work in the packing houses out your way usually do not have citizenship on their minds, nor exploitation of the system. They are reaping the benefits of making more money in a Day than they might earn in a week in their Homeland, doing jobs I don't think most of want to do.
Survival and taking care of the people they love. We all want to do the same.
Quote:
Quote:
[/quote]
| Originally Posted by red
I live outside NYC, in Orange County, onion country
|
The aroma of onions was always so pungent at Harvest time.
Uuummm....Pulaski Highway in September...
I never imagined how I'd actually grow to ~love~
that beautiful exotic perfume, (although I wouldn't want to wear it.) The the Black Dirt region has, or had, the 2nd largest onion crop in the US.
My memories are tied in with the sharing of knowledge and culture with beautiful Mestizo people in the kitchens of various labor camps.
:Waves "Hi" to red from nearby county:
Quote:
| I experience the migrant workers almost daily from planting season to harvest. Many live right here, hard working good people. I appreciate their hard work, and never take it for granted. |
Fantastic!
Too many people *do* take it for granted...never even give it a thought. I didn't realize what was happening until I found myself smack in the middle of The Beautiful Black Dirt Region of New York State.
Quote:
| However, I don't support some of the immigration reform, I don't think is fair for someone who jumped over the fence (migrant workers are a different story), arrived here illegally to be blessed and allowed to stay here without any repercussion. |
Jumping "over the fence" is probably one of the *easy* ways for the people to arrive here. Sometimes, well....can I say sewage drains under the ground, walking for miles in the desert with no food or drink for Days...
Desperation. I know...not our fault. That's true! Still...Humanity???
Government corruption (in neighboring countries, too) is a weighty ingredient in the formula; you realize the unspoken agreement several growers and businesses have about various forms of id...I know of places which were raided (an area factory comes to mind); the people were taken to NYCity, held for a few hours, until the factory owner arrived to pay a fine.
Then it was back to work, as usual.
Robbery and rape, separation of families, all occur along that treacherous border...(on *both* sides of that "fence".) I know a mother who was separated from her 3-yr-old daughter for an entire week, when crossing time was arranged. I believe it was an absolute Miracle they were reunited.
I knew a family whose males had been coming
all the way from the rural central Mexico, for 9 months at a time, since before the Amnesty Act. At the beginning, their house was a tiny 4-walled wooden structure with no roof, to speak of. But when I met the family, in Mexico, years later, they were finally on the brink of bringing running water directly into the most remote areas of the beautiful Sierran landscape; the children of the family were finally able to build small concrete houses for their separate families, and I heard talk of one of the older daughters having transportation so she could continue going to school after she became 12.
And we here all had a lovely salad to eat.
Most of the single males I met in that job had only been to school for a few years (under 6 years.) However, from speaking with them and learning about their values, I wondered (and will always wonder) why Life is so unfair; I could imagine many of them succeeding in medical or law school...Most of the men were never at home when their children were born, or when a relative passed away...
I shouldn't have started....I could go on for pages and pages....
Have you ever spoken with these people? Several of them do not speak Spanish as a first language; did you know that? I didn't, until I got to know them...for some reason, some of the people felt embarrassed about their native languages. The people who gave me the honor of their trust were humble, caring, homesick, and yes, extremely hard working people.
Quote:
| I have very little sympathy ... tell you why. |
Yes, I've read it, and will comment later on your reason. I am curious, however...I wonder if you've ever visited the labor camps where the families live. Have you met the children of these inter-state migrant workers whose parents follow the crops? Most of those people are ~Americans.~ I think you probably know that, but I've met so many people who assume they are "illegal aliens." These people have a 50% dropout rate, as their school year is interrupted, usually at least twice a year. But their educational interruption is, by far, not their most immediate issue. Their most pressing issues are being able to eat and to build homes for their families.
And then about those we are saying are *not* here legally...have you seen some of their housing? Ever seen the camp run by "los gemelos" (the twins)?
Hopefully, it's been improved, as they had been in violation of various Health Dept. regulations.But again, that was a few years ago. I have since lived abroad and returned with a family of my own.
Quote:
| I AM AN IMMIGRANT!!!! we waited on a quota system for 10 years to come to the US. We had a medical exam, had to prove we were financially sound to live in the US ... we went through the legal channels, waited patiently until we were called. When I went to school, I didn't have bi-lingual education, I was thrown into the deep end of the pool not understanding a word of English |
You have done so well! My most sincere and Heartfelt congratulations to you and your family, red. I didn't know you were an immigrant, as your English is flawless.
My grandfather and all my great-grandparents did as you did. Most came via Ellis Island, where their names were changed (I'm sure my miaden name is the result of an Immigration Authority at Ellis Island not understanding my great-grandfather's name.)
We are a "Country of Immigrants"...Ironically, as the Human Race has acted throughout history, since Ancient Times, we were not the first inhabitants of the Land which we call The United States of America. You know this.
In fact, if you closely examine facial features of people from all corners of the world, you will see similarities...Perhaps we are all from the same place, originally. A strong case can be made for the indigenous people of North, Central and South America having been here before those of us who are of European ancestry. "Ironically," these same "illegal aliens" are struggling to enter Land which was originally of their own people, in order to feed their families.
Quote:
| We asked for no handouts, my father worked, paid taxes, I learned English, we assimilated into this society, we gave back. I'm proud of my heritage, |
That's wonderful, and my family has the very same story.
Many of the "illegal immigrants" do not want to be citizens. In fact, the people are not trying to steal jobs, and have little access to handouts...
They do pay taxes, however. If you have the opportunity to visit with any of the people in your area one Day, say a group of yong men...I think they'll (very shyly, and with varying levels of English) tell you they miss their mothers, their wives, their siblings. They will probably not complain much about their often sub-standard housing (I don't know if it is still true that people in prison here are entitled to more living space than farmworkers...it was still true a few years ago...) The guys will probably not complain about their work hours, unless it is to say they don't have enough work. Those who stay to work in the packing houses out your way usually do not have citizenship on their minds, nor exploitation of the system. They are reaping the benefits of making more money in a Day than they might earn in a week in their Homeland, doing jobs I don't think most of want to do.
Survival and taking care of the people they love. We all want to do the same.
Quote:
| but I'm red, white & blue, stars & stripes for ever, |
I'm also very proud to be American!
Quote:
| and this is why this democrat, is voting for John McCain. |
[/quote]
And that is your perogative. You have your reasons.
Hope your Day is lovely! HeartVibes to you,
and please send some (from me) to any of the people about whom we speak, if you happen to meet them in a store, or to see them bicycling along P. Highway...Thanks.
CherylFaith
I don't have time to keep this topic up. I may have to leave this thread entirely, as I have far more pressing things to do. However, I have not been able to simply stay away from issues which relate to people about whom I care so deeply.
If my opinions are torn to hell, it's ok.
What is that expression about walking a mile in another man's shoes....?
Hope your Day is lovely! HeartVibes to you,
and please send some (from me) to any of the people about whom we speak, if you happen to meet them in a store, or to see them bicycling along P. Highway...Thanks.
CherylFaith
I don't have time to keep this topic up. I may have to leave this thread entirely, as I have far more pressing things to do. However, I have not been able to simply stay away from issues which relate to people about whom I care so deeply.
If my opinions are torn to hell, it's ok.
What is that expression about walking a mile in another man's shoes....?
lizardprincesa
Well-known member
Quote:
Hi SkylarV217, I wish I had time to answer you now, but I don't, since I just wrote another novel. However, I do wish to ask you to use my entire user name,
or, if you choose to call me a princess (which I am not, by any stretch...altho my husband makes me feel like one)
please spell it correctly.
I am using the Spanish word for princess; it is "princesa". Thanks so much.
| Originally Posted by SkylarV217
Princessa... |
Hi SkylarV217, I wish I had time to answer you now, but I don't, since I just wrote another novel. However, I do wish to ask you to use my entire user name,
or, if you choose to call me a princess (which I am not, by any stretch...altho my husband makes me feel like one)
I am using the Spanish word for princess; it is "princesa". Thanks so much.
Enjoy your Day! Blessings to you & your son.
CherylFaith
CherylFaith
purrtykitty
Well-known member
Quote:
Well, if the media would stop INCESSANTLY talking about it, perhaps we wouldn't be pushing ourselves into a recession or depression. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The media talks about it enough, the people start believing it and it happens.
| Originally Posted by creoloeprincess
THE DOW JONES DROPPED ALMOST 700 points!! if you dont want change from that then you must want a great depression haha 
|
Well, if the media would stop INCESSANTLY talking about it, perhaps we wouldn't be pushing ourselves into a recession or depression. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The media talks about it enough, the people start believing it and it happens.
purrtykitty
Well-known member
Quote:
Umm, no...the conditions within their own countries forced them to come here (and our policies in place allowed it to happen easily). Their governments sought to line its own pockets at its citizens expense. I can't say that I blame immigrants who migrate to the US looking for a better life. After all, most of our ancestors did so at some point for the same reason. However, there are better, LEGAL ways of doing so (as red pointed out).
And the US should not continue to turn a blind eye at those employers who hire undocumented workers. Employers who hire undocument workers should have to pay hefty fines for not only hiring these folks, but not paying the proper taxes, and likely not even paying minimum wage.
I agree with instituting a guest worker program. I don't see rounding up all illegal aliens as being feasible, but there are ways to work with this situation that the current policies have created.
| Originally Posted by ShugAvery2001
Our foreign policies have forced them to come here. We've raped third world countries for centuries! Our countries leadership have orchestrated this. Do you realize that in Mexico and other third world countries, that the farmers there can't even make a living farming anymore! Why, it's partly due to unregulated free market capitalism. Our government initiated trade deals with these countries that benifited american corporate farmers. So instead of these poor people being able to make a living off the land farming feeding themselves etc., now most of their food is IMPORTED from other places. Many of them have no way to earn money! These people respond the same way people from oklahoma responded during the Dust Bowl, when drought caused farmers to go into forclosure. These people did the same thing the Mexicans are doing, THEY MIGRATED. How would you feel? Would you watch your children starve and stay put? |
Umm, no...the conditions within their own countries forced them to come here (and our policies in place allowed it to happen easily). Their governments sought to line its own pockets at its citizens expense. I can't say that I blame immigrants who migrate to the US looking for a better life. After all, most of our ancestors did so at some point for the same reason. However, there are better, LEGAL ways of doing so (as red pointed out).
And the US should not continue to turn a blind eye at those employers who hire undocumented workers. Employers who hire undocument workers should have to pay hefty fines for not only hiring these folks, but not paying the proper taxes, and likely not even paying minimum wage.
I agree with instituting a guest worker program. I don't see rounding up all illegal aliens as being feasible, but there are ways to work with this situation that the current policies have created.
lizardprincesa
Well-known member
That is work that nobody wants to do. You're right, nobody forces them to come here, but if they had a choice I know for a fact they would never choose those jobs, and no American citizen would willingly do those jobs.[/quote]
xxx Great points!! You are so right, SuSana, Most Americans would not willingly do those jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShugAvery2001
Many of them have no way to earn money! These people respond the same way people from oklahoma responded during the Dust Bowl, when drought caused farmers to go into forclosure. These people did the same thing the Mexicans are doing, THEY MIGRATED.
How would you feel? Would you watch your children starve and stay put?
ShugAvery2001, you have summed up all I wanted to say in a much more succinct manner.
*Many* people feel as both of you feel, but few will type it here.
You are wonderful.
Hugs to both of you brave, intelligent people!
Sending you HeartVibes,
xxxxCherylFaithxxxx
missworld
Well-known member
Quote:
Do please enlighten me then.
You can no longer visit a doctor's 'surgery' without receiving a bill at the end of the consultation?
The major NHS hospitals have all disappeared?
Yes, I was and am aware the NHS faces both funding and staffing problems.
I was not advocating a national health system in this country but stating the principle is free health care for all at the point of delivery should be our goal.
Something like the Canadian system might work.
"The collective principle asserts that... no society can legitimately call itself civilized if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means." — Aneurin Bevan, In Place of Fear, p100
But I see some people here are never going to get that point no matter who makes it, so I'm done trying...
missworld
| Originally Posted by *Stargazer*
I'm English. Up until my son was born last year, I spent a good part of each year back at home. I know the NHS. But I'm sure your experience with it 20 years ago gives you some kind of perspective on how the NHS works now. |
Do please enlighten me then.
You can no longer visit a doctor's 'surgery' without receiving a bill at the end of the consultation?
The major NHS hospitals have all disappeared?
Yes, I was and am aware the NHS faces both funding and staffing problems.
I was not advocating a national health system in this country but stating the principle is free health care for all at the point of delivery should be our goal.
Something like the Canadian system might work.
"The collective principle asserts that... no society can legitimately call itself civilized if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means." — Aneurin Bevan, In Place of Fear, p100
But I see some people here are never going to get that point no matter who makes it, so I'm done trying...
missworld
Chikky
Well-known member
Quote:
That may be true, but I'm not sure. My guy called this over a year ago (and he's nowhere near in a financial job). It was bound to at least happen, anyhow. Other than that, as per how worse it gets? Could be media, but maybe not. Who knows?
| Originally Posted by purrtykitty
Well, if the media would stop INCESSANTLY talking about it, perhaps we wouldn't be pushing ourselves into a recession or depression. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The media talks about it enough, the people start believing it and it happens. |
That may be true, but I'm not sure. My guy called this over a year ago (and he's nowhere near in a financial job). It was bound to at least happen, anyhow. Other than that, as per how worse it gets? Could be media, but maybe not. Who knows?
purrtykitty
Well-known member
Quote:
Well, true...the bad mortgages were bound to catch up to lenders sooner or later, and the housing market just couldn't sustain that artificial growth any longer, either (much like the tech. sector). But I think people forget that the economy goes through cycles of ups and downs. Sustained economic growth, even if only in the single digits is just extremely difficult, if not impossible to achieve. I feel this downturn we're in is just much more pronounced because every waking minute of it, we're being reminded of how bad things are.
I understand people are losing jobs, but even at the unemployment rate we're at now, we are not that far of from what is considered "full employment". Instead of focusing so much on what is going on with the economy, election, etc...I'd really like to hear about other things going on in the world. Surely something else is happening that is newsworthy.
| Originally Posted by Chikky
That may be true, but I'm not sure. My guy called this over a year ago (and he's nowhere near in a financial job). It was bound to at least happen, anyhow. Other than that, as per how worse it gets? Could be media, but maybe not. Who knows? |
Well, true...the bad mortgages were bound to catch up to lenders sooner or later, and the housing market just couldn't sustain that artificial growth any longer, either (much like the tech. sector). But I think people forget that the economy goes through cycles of ups and downs. Sustained economic growth, even if only in the single digits is just extremely difficult, if not impossible to achieve. I feel this downturn we're in is just much more pronounced because every waking minute of it, we're being reminded of how bad things are.
I understand people are losing jobs, but even at the unemployment rate we're at now, we are not that far of from what is considered "full employment". Instead of focusing so much on what is going on with the economy, election, etc...I'd really like to hear about other things going on in the world. Surely something else is happening that is newsworthy.
gigglegirl
Well-known member
Quote:
I just don't understand why people should be shepherded into putting up with illegal aliens who may or may not backhandedly contribute to the economy. The premise with which they began in your country is not legal. Thus comments such as the one above shouldn't need to weigh on citizens minds, as they are displacing many honest American citizens jobs. In this turbulent economy in which people are losing their jobs, I would totally be pissed off and want illegal aliens out of a job that I could occupy to make money to put food in my family's mouths.
| Originally Posted by lizardprincesa
I think people need to take another look at the "food chain" ...What will it do to our economy if the people who come in to work here without legal documents are simply not here? In certain sectors, where machinery has not fully replaced people's manual labour, what devastating effects will the absence of these people do to our economy? ? |
I just don't understand why people should be shepherded into putting up with illegal aliens who may or may not backhandedly contribute to the economy. The premise with which they began in your country is not legal. Thus comments such as the one above shouldn't need to weigh on citizens minds, as they are displacing many honest American citizens jobs. In this turbulent economy in which people are losing their jobs, I would totally be pissed off and want illegal aliens out of a job that I could occupy to make money to put food in my family's mouths.
lizardprincesa
Well-known member
Quote:
Quote:
| Originally Posted by missworld
... I was not advocating a national health system in this country but stating the principle is free health care for all at the point of delivery should be our goal. |
A system such as you have underscored, missworld, sounds truly *~*humane*~*.
While I cannot see how a completely Nationalized Health Care system could work in a country so large, (nor would I prefer it for my family), you've made various points throughout the thread which have suggested other ideas, all leading me to think I may just write in your name when I go to vote.
No....I think you are female, and I don't think our country (sadly) would elect a woman as President *yet*....although the time will come.
Meanwhile, I will go with the man in whom I Believe!
Quote:While I cannot see how a completely Nationalized Health Care system could work in a country so large, (nor would I prefer it for my family), you've made various points throughout the thread which have suggested other ideas, all leading me to think I may just write in your name when I go to vote.
No....I think you are female, and I don't think our country (sadly) would elect a woman as President *yet*....although the time will come.
Meanwhile, I will go with the man in whom I Believe!
| "The collective principle asserts that... no society can legitimately call itself civilized if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means." — Aneurin Bevan, In Place of Fear, p100 |
I think most people would probably agree with you, even if they are not posting on a Specktra thread. In fact, I'd be willing to bet, most people on Specktra would agree with these words.
What a great quote!
Quote:
| But I see some people here are never going to get that point no matter who makes it, so I'm done trying... missworld |
Please don't give up Hope, missworld! Hope still grows here, in our America.
I don't believe Hope has died, or will die...
and...
I Hope to see Barack Obama hugging his radiant wife, Michelle, when they are elected to be our next President and First Lady!
I don't believe Hope has died, or will die...
and...
I Hope to see Barack Obama hugging his radiant wife, Michelle, when they are elected to be our next President and First Lady!
xxxxCherylFaithxxxx
red
Well-known member
"The collective principle asserts that... no society can legitimately call itself civilized if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means"
we do live in a civilized society, we can't deny medical help, its the law. A similar statement can be seen as you enter every hospital in the US. Medical care will never be denied, nor should anyone worry if they are illegal aliens. The hospital won't turn you in, their role is to heal.
But what happens to the hospital bill? You and I will have to pay it, higher medical costs, etc.... its a domino effect.
"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..."
this is no longer applicable, we can't afford it any longer.
we do live in a civilized society, we can't deny medical help, its the law. A similar statement can be seen as you enter every hospital in the US. Medical care will never be denied, nor should anyone worry if they are illegal aliens. The hospital won't turn you in, their role is to heal.
But what happens to the hospital bill? You and I will have to pay it, higher medical costs, etc.... its a domino effect.
"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..."
this is no longer applicable, we can't afford it any longer.
- Status
