Black MAC Barbie?

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Indigowaters Why should I be interested in a product that does not concern me, since so many non-black people on this board have kindly pointed out that Barbie will forever be white and blonde as if to say we don't have a place in what we want and shouldn't want it any other way? And also, if she is "just a doll", why are people so bent on what I will and will not get in this collection. Like I said, it's my decision to spend my money or not spend it.

I don't think anyone has told you how to spend your money, or what you should or shouldn't buy from the collection.

 

[Indigowaters]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer I don't think anyone has told you how to spend your money, or what you should or shouldn't buy from the collection.

They haven't. It's just being implied. But I also wonder why I can't voice my opinions and wants without feeling anxiety of being attacked and put down? I think I'll just keep my opinions to myself from now on and post FOTDs. After all, if I leave myself out of the equation, there will be no one for anyone to argue with.

 

[Shimmer]

I'm sorry you feel attacked/villified. That's certainly not the intention behind the chatter/deep thoughts forums.

I don't see how it's being implied, either.

I do see though, confusion and consternation at the whole "I won't buy because it's BARBIE and BARBIE makes MAC look BAD" attitude that has been expressed.
I can understand and relate to skipping the collection based on the colors, the textures, or financial reasons. I skipped Untamed and Nocturnelle completely because the colors/textures weren't for me. I could have said "I think DVT is just disgusting [i don't] and I refuse to have part in anything that glorifies her, as she's nothing better than a stripper", but that would have been, IMO, silly.

I've yet to see swatches of this collection anywhere, though I admittedly haven't looked very hard, so it's entirely possible that I may see it and pass.

I simply don't see the reason to pass on what could be a quite lovely collection based on...I don't even know...race?
I didn't make it about race, MAC didn't make it about race, Mattel didn't make it about race, no one made it about race. It's not exclusive of non whites, as quite honestly, the black model's makeup is substantially, in my opinion, more attractive than the white model's. The fact that they're showing a black and a white model shows that they're not excluding you, or anyone else, from the collection. Barbie as a doll was a white doll. Was she always blond? Probably not.
Regardless, no one is forcing you to put your wallet on the counter and buy anything. They're simply asking for a more detailed explanation of why you don't seem to want any part of it.

And, when you throw your opinion into the ring, it's human nature for others to agree or disagree with.

That doesn't make you wrong.
It doesn't make you right.
It makes you another person who has intelligent thought regarding a subject being discussed by people of varying circumstances basically across the world.

 

[Indigowaters]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Regardless, no one is forcing you to put your wallet on the counter and buy anything. They're simply asking for a more detailed explanation of why you don't seem to want any part of it.

I think any further explanation will cause people to look more into it than they will try to understand, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[OnaFyre]

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Originally Posted by Indigowaters Ok, so I haven't been on the board in a while and I just had a thought. If Barbie had originally been a black doll, would you all on the board who are not black have had a problem with it, bought it, or would it have just been a doll gone unnoticed all these years? Oh, and btw, Barbie didn't start off blonde for all of those who want to argue that Barbie will always be white and blonde. There have been Barbies of different colors, not just the friends.

If Barbie had been black, we would not be having this conversation because she would never have gotten the financial and public support that has sustained Barbie to this point in her long existance. Just think, we'd be living in a world of Jem and Maxi dolls....weird...

 

[MacArtist]

OnaFrye,

I was just looking at that site you posted for the Barbie dolls. To go back a bit, when I was told we were going to have a doll for sale I asked if we were going to have both dolls, since we will be having both visual displayers of the black and white Barbie (models). I was confused when told we would only be having one, it makes no sense. Anyways, I had no idea that all the dolls were named Barbie! I learned something today. I wasn't big into Barbie dolls, which is weird because I grew up with two sisters. We had some Barbie dolls but we used to shave their heads and make them fight each other lol. Ah, warm sweet memories .

 

[Janice]

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Originally Posted by Indigowaters But I also wonder why I can't voice my opinions and wants without feeling anxiety of being attacked and put down?

My goal for Deep Thoughts is to have a place for unmolested serious and intelligent discussion. This doesn't mean you won't have people who disagree or counter your opinion, but it does mean that even though you may feel that twinge of anxiety pushing the "submit" button you won't be attacked or flamed. The anxiety (IMHO) comes from the unknown, since you're putting yourself out there with your personal opinion. From my experience as a member on many forums, that's a normal feeling to have when you become deeply involved in a discussion. I can't cure normal, but I can facilitate an open and honest discussion. I appreciate your contributions, if you feel that's all you would like to participate in on the site then I respect that.

You have to understand though, we are dealing with opinions and personal views. It's OK if these conflict, it's in the manner we handle the conflict that is important. Hopefully, even though you feel no progress has been made in your argument, someone has read something in this thread that has been helpful, or has made them think outside of their box.

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigowaters Ok, so I haven't been on the board in a while and I just had a thought. If Barbie had originally been a black doll, would you all on the board who are not black have had a problem with it, bought it, or would it have just been a doll gone unnoticed all these years?......

I wouldn't have a problem with it. As a child, I didn't have just white dolls. I understand that there are dolls are that are black, that are white and that are asian. That's the way it is. A doll is a doll.

If MAC had just released a black Barbie, I would have no problem with that and I would have purchased that doll. I like the concept. The skin colour is a just a detail.

 

[Indigowaters]

You know the funny thing is that people are quoting everything I said but this:

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Originally Posted by Indigowaters I think she's asking if there will actually be an african-american doll just like the caucasian doll that we saw in the pictures for the collection coming out. I saw the pictures of the two models (one black, one white) wearing the makeup in the Barbie color story. I'd have to see some looks and more pictures to know if I'll actually like it though.

I was also talking about the colors in the collection, because in the previous thread that was split we were talking about whether or not the colors would compliment darker skin tones as well. But with all people who want to start something or boost their "thanks" count, someone came along and quoted something I said and took it out of context. If the same people would go back and read, they could see that I was saying it out of sarcasm and even said don't quote me on it. But being human and wanting to start something, they quoted me. That's why I say read the whole thread before putting your 2 cents in.

 

[Indigowaters]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore I wouldn't have a problem with it. As a child, I didn't have just white dolls. I understand that there are dolls are that are black, that are white and that are asian. That's the way it is. A doll is a doll. If MAC had just released a black Barbie, I would have no problem with that and I would have purchased that doll. I like the concept. The skin colour is a just a detail.

I still don't think you get what I'm saying

. I'm saying if Barbie had been black back in the day, we wouldn't even have been talking about her today, because she wouldn't have gained as much popularity throughout these years with EVERYONE (white, black, hispanic or asian) to still be around today.

 

[lemurian]

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Originally Posted by Indigowaters I still don't think you get what I'm saying . I'm saying if Barbie had been black back in the day, we wouldn't even have been talking about her today, because she wouldn't have gained as much popularity throughout these years with EVERYONE (white, black, hispanic or asian) to still be around today.

I'm only half-heartedly following this discussion, but I just wanted to interject my two cents here -- I totally understand what you're saying, Indigowaters, but I think it's coming across a bit harsh, like you're implying that us white, Asian and Hispanic girls would have shunned a black doll because of course all white, Asian and Hispanic people hate black people. That's insulting! However, in the broader scheme of things, I think we can all attest to the fact that racism exists and than vast majority of Americans at the time Barbie first came to be were white and society was often segregated. Personally I think the fact that you yourself are opposed to Barbie because she's white is a little ironic, but I can certainly see where you're coming from. But mostly I think this thread has become incredibly repeticious because people don't want to say exactly what they mean, which is too bad. What happened to that anti-PC thread, anyway?

 

[sharyn]

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Originally Posted by lemurian But mostly I think this thread has become incredibly repeticious because people don't want to say exactly what they mean, which is too bad. What happened to that anti-PC thread, anyway?

Thank you. I agree 100% with your whole post.

I spend an hours over this thread, wrote a rather long post, choose my words very carefuly and then deleted it rather than hitting the submit button. I decided to keep my mouth shut and not add another point of view to the discussion cause maybe someone somewhere could find it not PC in some weird way and I might be acussed for saying something I definitely didnt want to say. And I think I am not the only one who feels this way.

this could have been a very interesting thread.

 

[Shimmer]

Have to agree, y'all.

If the opinion is presented respectfully, please feel free to express the thought.

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by Indigowaters I still don't think you get what I'm saying . I'm saying if Barbie had been black back in the day, we wouldn't even have been talking about her today, because she wouldn't have gained as much popularity throughout these years with EVERYONE (white, black, hispanic or asian) to still be around today.

I get what you're saying. You asked if I would have had a problem with it and I said no. I didn't have only white dolls as a child. I'm just saying from a different perspective, that for some people it didn't make a difference what colour a doll was "back in the day" or decades ago. Barbie brand or not. Mainly me.

You'd asked if Barbie would have been as popular or around all these years if she was black. Who's to say? No one could tell you for sure. We could guess and that's about it. There have been plenty of white, black, etc dolls that have come and gone throughout time. That is more of a business issue. Why do some lines stay in business and some don't? Maybe the brand wouldn't still be here. We could all throw the issue back and forth, but what does that do for us today? Why don't we just worry about how we are living today?

 

[Indigowaters]

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Originally Posted by lemurian I'm only half-heartedly following this discussion, but I just wanted to interject my two cents here -- I totally understand what you're saying, Indigowaters, but I think it's coming across a bit harsh, like you're implying that us white, Asian and Hispanic girls would have shunned a black doll because of course all white, Asian and Hispanic people hate black people. That's insulting!

I believe I said EVERYONE - which included black, white, hispanic and asian. But for some reason you took black out and tried to make more of my statement. That's what you took from my statement but that isn't what I meant. I wrote what I meant and I won't back down from it. What I don't appreciate is someone telling me what I meant and how I meant it. And I also did not say I was opposed to Barbie because she's white. Where did you get that from? Before quoting me, read with understanding and get the facts straight.

 

[Shimmer]

Why does race enter into it?
Does anyone really think MAC executives sat around talking and decided to create collections specifically made to exclude people of darker pigmentation? I mean really, does anyone??
It's not about race anymore unless someone makes it about race.

Frustrating thing really...I have a girlfriend who I absolutely adore. She's funny, articulate, active, driven, intelligent, well read, sophisticated, energetic and just plain fun. One of the most supportive and loving people I know, and I say that truly from the bottom of my heart. I love this girl.

She's black.

Big fucking deal.

I never think about that, unless it's pointed out...and she isn't the one who points it out, generally it's someone else who says "It's so nice to see a black girl who...blabblahblahblah".

What yaks me off to no end is to see people use race as entitlement. Being _____ doesn't entitle you to anything. Not a special holiday. Not a special awards show. Not a special TV channel. Not anything. You're [general statement, not directed specifically at anyone on this site, or anywhere else] not owed anything in this life but what you earn, and if you EARN it, it's generally gladly given.

 

[GalleyGirl]

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Originally Posted by lemurian Personally I think the fact that you yourself are opposed to Barbie because she's white is a little ironic, but I can certainly see where you're coming from.

I don't think she ever said she was opposed to Barbie because she is white! That seems like an off-base extrapolation.
If I remember correctly, this thread's topic was originally about whether or not there would be a black barbie included in the collection. It was never about "Get rid of the barbie doll because she is white," and I don't think any of the ensuing comments implied that.
I really don't understand why people are coming down on those who just want to see a version of their beauty represented alongside that which is already represented in abundance.

 

[Shimmer]

And, I'm going to a specific post in this thread:

Quote:

I was also talking about the colors in the collection, because in the previous thread that was split we were talking about whether or not the colors would compliment darker skin tones as well. But with all people who want to start something or boost their "thanks" count, someone came along and quoted something I said and took it out of context. If the same people would go back and read, they could see that I was saying it out of sarcasm and even said don't quote me on it. But being human and wanting to start something, they quoted me. That's why I say read the whole thread before putting your 2 cents in.

I think we generally can see when people are attempting to start a melee and when people are offering their opinions.

The "thanks" option seems to be a point of contention lately but I want to state:
There is NO ONE forcing ANYONE to validate ANY post. Furthermore, ANYONE who accidentally "thanks" a person for a post now has the option to remove the "thanks".
So, in all fairness, I believe it would be logical to say that if someone posts something, regardless of the content (providing it's within the TOS and site rules), and others find it helpful, or agree with it, it's perfectly okay to "thank" the poster. The poster isn't the one doing the "thanking"...the people who agree with or endorse the post for other reasons are.

 

[lemurian]

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Originally Posted by Indigowaters I believe I said EVERYONE - which included black, white, hispanic and asian. But for some reason you took black out and tried to make more of my statement. That's what you took from my statement but that isn't what I meant. I wrote what I meant and I won't back down from it. What I don't appreciate is someone telling me what I meant and how I meant it. And I also did not say I was opposed to Barbie because she's white. Where did you get that from? Before quoting me, read with understanding and get the facts straight.

I didn't quote you. If you'd actually read what I wrote you'd understand that I said that it SEEMED LIKE you IMPLIED certain things. In fact my whole point was that that was the reason you felt like you were being misunderstood. Maybe you just have a hard time expressing yourself, I don't know. Frankly, I don't care. But saying that you didn't say something that others easily gathered from inferrence isn't a defense, it's just nitpicky. If you really weren't backing down you'd admit that what you did say certainly implied that you had no interest in Barbie because she's not black, and is, in fact, WHITE. And I'd respect your opinion, if that actually is your opinion. If people wouldn't pussyfoot around we might actually be able to have a discussion rather than a pointless argument.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalleyGirl I don't think she ever said she was opposed to Barbie because she is white! That seems like an off-base extrapolation. If I remember correctly, this thread's topic was originally about whether or not there would be a black barbie included in the collection. It was never about "Get rid of the barbie doll because she is white," and I don't think any of the ensuing comments implied that. I really don't understand why people are coming down on those who just want to see a version of their beauty represented alongside that which is already represented in abundance.

So, because it's "abundant"...it shouldn't be represented?

Had MAC come out with a collection specifically for black women/men...would it not be correct, fair, and honestly legitimate for people who aren't within that demographic to state that MAC was being discriminatory?