Boys In Make-Up...opinions.

[Raerae]

Oh also... One thing that I think needs to defined in this thread, is the difference between men in, "masculine" makeup, and men in "feminine" makeup.

Masculine being maybe using a light foundation, or a conceleor, or some dark eyeliner, or some other application, that doesn't leave you doubting that the person using it is a man.

Feminine makeup being obviously makeup designed to make you look, "pretty". Full face makeup, etc.

Obviously there will be some crossover, but I think it's safe to say that manly makeup would tend to be more towards the neutral side (not in all cases, but in most). While girly makeup can and is often neutral, is also generally more dramatic, frosty eyes, sparkly lips, pretty blush, etc.

I just think thats important. Since when someone in the thread say that, "guys in makeup are hot" do they mean JohnnyDepp in pirates makeup (heavy black eyeliner), or drag queen I wanna look like a girl makeup. Since I think the styles are very different, and while you might think Depp in eyeliner is hot (who doesn't?), Patrick Swayze in, Too Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar is a little chickish for my taiste.

 

[Eoraptor]

Quote:

I like knowing he's afraid of crying at a movie, and will hold me in a scary movie because he's not afraid. I like the fact that I hate sports (obviously this doesn't apply to every girl), and he tells me he can't talks right now cuz the game is on. I also like knowing that if I touched him with eyeshadow, he would be in the bathroom 1/2 a second later washing his face to get it off LOL!

That just sounds so crazy to me. Liking that a guy hides their feelings, is embarrassed to wear something privately in front of you purely due to society, or values sports over you...
Those all seem like negative traits for a person, especially a romantic partner. I mean, I'm all for freedom to do/like whatever you want, but that seems almost masochistic to me.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eoraptor That just sounds so crazy to me. Liking that a guy hides their feelings, is embarrassed to wear something privately in front of you purely due to society, or values sports over you... Those all seem like negative traits for a person, especially a romantic partner. I mean, I'm all for freedom to do/like whatever you want, but that seems almost masochistic to me.

Your missing the point though, it's very simple. For me, opposites attract. I dont want a guy who is a sobbing wreck, i want him to comfort me because I'm a sobbing wreck. I want him to hold me, I dont want to have to hold him. And I like the fact that the guys I date hate makeup. Thats my obsession. Private or not, i like knowing he hates it. There are some things I dont want to share with him, even an itsy bitsy teeny tiny but. Just like he's allowed to have his passions and obsessions. I dont think it's him valueing sports over me, any more than I dont want to be bothered when I'm in the bathroom getting ready. Thats a big pet peeve of mine, when i'm getting ready, dont rush me, or bother me, i'll just take longer and get annoyed (i've said F it i'm not going when I've been rused before, i'll do it again LOL)! Granted if it was super important I would deal with it, just like I'd expect him to hit pause on the DVR during the game if something super important came up. But i'm not gonna get pissed at him for not wanting to talk about his day at work while his fav team is playing.

Edit: None of this has anything to do with society. Even if tommorow I woke up and anyone could dress like anyone, and it was considered completely normal, I still wouldn't want to date or be in a relationship with a feminine man.

 

[Shimmer]

Eoraptor, what you're missing is that what draws us (raerae and me) and many other women, though certainly not all, to a man is exactly that, his manhood. (Not his c*ck, though that's certainly a nice part of the package too, but his masculinity.)
Having a man who cries because his feelings got hurt, when I don't even cry if my feelings get hurt, or because he saw a touching AT&T commercial at Christmas, or because he didn't get the raise he wanted or whatever bullshit reason it is is just IRRITATING. I've been married to a man like that. *I* am not a sobbing wreck and I can't deal with other people who are. ESPECIALLY men.
Part of what attracts me to a man is his masculine sexuality. (We're speaking as if I am totally single here...) I like testosterone. I like men who are big and strong and stronger willed than I am, and I like men who when they hold me make me feel like I'm safe and protected in their arms.
I DON'T like girly men. I DON'T like boiz. I like MEN.

I'll agree with RaeRae also that there's a d ifference between masculine makeup and effeminate makeup. Johnny Depp doesn't look effeminate. Neither does the Green Day guy (Billy Joe?). Dave Navarro is about as close to that line as I can consider possibly maybe sometime POSSIBLY dating.

Again, it's not closed mindedness, IMO, it's just not attractive to me.

 

[Eoraptor]

Shimmer, your views make more sense to me than Raerae's. For one, being attracted to physical masculinity seems natural for women. And liking the positive affects of that physical masculinity, like feeling safe due to his greater strength, makes perfect sense to me. So I don't view either of these things are close-mindedness, they're just who you are attracted to.

Finally, the fact that you don't cry easily makes it perfectly understandable that you'd want a partner who's the same. You seem to think crying easily would be a negative trait for you, so of course it's a negative trait for anyone. Since Raerae's specified that she doesn't like being interrupted when SHE's doing certain things, her "he tells me he can't talks right now cuz the game is on" falls into this category, so I understand it.

But Raerae has this 'opposites attract' philosophy, which I get physically, but not behaviorally. "I dont want a guy who is a sobbing wreck, i want him to comfort me because I'm a sobbing wreck" just seems selfish to me. I think partners should be eager and willing to return any help they get from each other in full. What you're saying is as bad to me as if a man said "I don't want a woman who will make me do work around the house, I want her to do all the cooking and cleaning because I'm lazy." Or more personally, "I don't want a woman who makes a fuss if I don't get her off in bed, I just want her to get me off." These are all stereotypical attitudes involving what guys are/aren't expected to do, which one side can take advantage of.

On the other hand, the fact you like that a partner hates one of your passions is just mind-boggling to me. Even if it is equalized by the fact you like hating some of his passions. How that can possibly be a positive thing for a relationship, I don't know. It's like if I chose a Biblical literalist girl who would scoff and roll her eyes whenever I brought up my interest in dinosaurs and evolution. I've never thought of sharing a part of your life with someone you love as being a bad thing. And really, needing to rush to remove makeup that would only be seen by your partner is just silly insecurity, not a mere difference in what he likes.

 

[Raerae]

Your still missing the point...


Quote:

Originally Posted by Eoraptor But Raerae has this 'opposites attract' philosophy, which I get physically, but not behaviorally. "I dont want a guy who is a sobbing wreck, i want him to comfort me because I'm a sobbing wreck" just seems selfish to me.

Sorry, i dont want to be sharing a box of tissues with my boyfriend when I drag him to a chickflick he doesn't wanna see, but is willing to go to because he wants to make me happy.

Or in a more emotional situation (emotions are more than just loss)dealing with our life, I dont want a boyfriend who is crying with me. I want to be able to have him put his arms around me, and tell me everything is going to be ok. Or be the decision maker if some sort of action is needed. In these situations his strength is my strength. How am I supposed to feel safe if the person who is supposed to always be there for me and keep me safe is just as emotional as I am? I dont want am emotional man. Yes it's ok for him to display emotion, and in some cases it is appropriate. I'd expect him to cry if someone close to him died, or something of that nature.

Quote:

I think partners should be eager and willing to return any help they get from each other in full. What you're saying is as bad to me as if a man said "I don't want a woman who will make me do work around the house, I want her to do all the cooking and cleaning because I'm lazy."

<shrug> typically it's the girls around the house that do that anyways, at least in my expierence. Who do you think clears the table and washes the dishes after dinner? My mom and I (when I'm over for dinner). Same with washing the floors, dusting, bathrooms, whatever. My mom does all of that in her house. Laundry, shopping for food, you name it. She also doesn't mind doing that sort of thing, because he does different things around the house that contribute in different ways. I also dont mind asking my Mom if she needs help with those things, and driving down to help her on the weekend. She works full time on top of it.

FYI my dad isn't lazy just because he's not cleaning up the house. He takes care of different stuff. Sometimes it involves working 12 hours a day at the office, and then until 12am (or later) on his laptop at home to pay for the huge mortgage on their new property. Or the bazillion things involved with the construction of their new home, ordering supplies, hiring contractors, etc etc. Or fixing things around the house, etc.

They both work full time, and work on their house, just in diff ways. I dont think any one task is valued more than the other.

Quote:

Or more personally, "I don't want a woman who makes a fuss if I don't get her off in bed, I just want her to get me off." These are all stereotypical attitudes involving what guys are/aren't expected to do, which one side can take advantage of.

LOL, we woulnd't be dating if this was a problem. Believe me the guys who coulnd't "get me off" didn't make it any farther than that.

Edit: Actually, i think, "the guys that didn't try" would prolly be more appropriate. Since there is a lot more to making love than just the orgasm. And sometimes it just doesn't happen, not matter how much we both want it too.

Quote:

On the other hand, the fact you like that a partner hates one of your passions is just mind-boggling to me. Even if it is equalized by the fact you like hating some of his passions. How that can possibly be a positive thing for a relationship, I don't know. It's like if I chose a Biblical literalist girl who would scoff and roll her eyes whenever I brought up my interest in dinosaurs and evolution. I've never thought of sharing a part of your life with someone you love as being a bad thing.

It's not that complicated, i promise. The guys I've dated dont hate my passion in makeup. In fact, they usually love the fact that I take the time to make myself pretty, since if were going out, i'm totally doing it for him. Him not wanting makeup on his face has nothing to do with him hating it on me. And I dont passionateley hate sports, maybe that was a bad choice of words. I'm not interested in them. But if he wants to watch the game, i'll probably ask from the other room if he needs anything to drink or eat. Or if he's lucky, maybe I'll come cuddle and bother him with lots of annoying questions about this and that!

Quote:

And really, needing to rush to remove makeup that would only be seen by your partner is just silly insecurity, not a mere difference in what he likes.

I think it's cute.

 

[Eoraptor]

Quote:

How am I supposed to feel safe if the person who is supposed to always be there for me and keep me safe is just as emotional as I am?

Because most of the time you'll be emotinal about different things, so one can comfort the other. If he's not acting sadly emotional about his negative experiences, what are the alternatives?
- he's acting angrily emotional about them, which I don't think anyone likes.
- he really doesn't feel badly about things, so can't truly relate to or respect your your feelings.
- he's hiding his feelings from you and/or himself, because he thinks he shouldn't have them, doesn't want you to think he's weak, etc..

Quote:

I want to be able to have him put his arms around me, and tell me everything is going to be ok. Or be the decision maker if some sort of action is needed. In these situations his strength is my strength.

Wanting him to be the decision maker just sounds like you don't like responsibility (which I can certainly relate to- I hate responsibility). Personally, I feel 'stronger' if my partner cries when I do. The fact she's acting that way too adds justification to my actions. If I'm crying while she's not, I'm more likely to feel silly or ashamed for my 'weakness'.

Quote:

<shrug> typically it's the girls around the house that do that anyways, at least in my expierence.

The roles you listed are so traditional/stereotypical. Society is busy telling men and women that the gender stereotypes we grew up with aren't important, but you prefer them. It's just such an odd concept to me. Especially coming from a girl, since women are the ones behind this societal change.

Quote:

LOL, we woulnd't be dating if this was a problem. Believe me the guys who [didn't try to] "get me off" didn't make it any farther than that.

And that's how I feel about emotional support. Girls who don't give me a shoulder to cry on when I need it don't get further than that, let alone to a romantic relationship.

Quote:

It's not that complicated, i promise. The guys I've dated dont hate my passion in makeup. In fact, they usually love the fact that I take the time to make myself pretty, since if were going out, i'm totally doing it for him. Him not wanting makeup on his face has nothing to do with him hating it on me. And I dont passionateley hate sports, maybe that was a bad choice of words. I'm not interested in them. But if he wants to watch the game, i'll probably ask from the other room if he needs anything to drink or eat. Or if he's lucky, maybe I'll come cuddle and bother him with lots of annoying questions about this and that!

Well, that's fine. There are bound to be things like that in any relationship. To me it's more of a regrettable necessity of people being so complicated- we're bound to dislike some things our partners like. I just don't see why you prefer it that way.

Quote:

I think it's cute.

Hmm. What do you think are the underlying reasons he acts that way though? I can't think of any which would be respectable.

One thing seems certain- you and I would make TERRIBLE romantic partners for each other.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Quote:

The roles you listed are so traditional/stereotypical. Society is busy telling men and women that the gender stereotypes we grew up with aren't important, but you prefer them. It's just such an odd concept to me. Especially coming from a girl, since women are the ones behind this societal change.

While that's definitely not how I plan on things being done in my house, as long as both parties respect and appreciate the work of the other and don't feel like they're doing more than the other, falling into the typical gender roles isn't always bad. Feminism is about choice, being happy with the choice you make, and not pushing your choices onto other people. Some women are more than happy being housewives and- kudos to them for finding what makes them happy and being able to do that. It doesn't make them any less feminist in my eyes, as long as they're not telling me that I have to do the same.

They aren't hurting anyone, in my opinion, because there are plenty of women in the workforce still and plenty of men who understand that not all women grew up knowing how to be homemakers. It's an issue of respect and acceptance of choice. Not all women out there are suited to mow the lawn, fix the car, or be the breadwinner. Same thing for men.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark Some women are more than happy being housewives and- kudos to them for finding what makes them happy and being able to do that. It doesn't make them any less feminist in my eyes, as long as they're not telling me that I have to do the same.

My mom runs her house and works 40 hours a week and earns about 80 grand a year. She's going 24-7 lol.. And she was a single mom for many years.

How feminist is that LOL!

I think a lot of our perceptions on these things come from our parents. I've seen my Mom do it all, and thus thats the rolemodel I had when growing up. And imho, it was a darn good one!

 

[Beauty Mark]

I'd say as long as she's happy and not forced into that lifestyle, good for her for finding what works. I think it's feministic in that she's doing what she wants and isn't conforming to someone else's ideas. Some people just prefer to be that busy and thrive in it, while others do not.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eoraptor Because most of the time you'll be emotinal about different things, so one can comfort the other. If he's not acting sadly emotional about his negative experiences, what are the alternatives? - he's acting angrily emotional about them, which I don't think anyone likes. - he really doesn't feel badly about things, so can't truly relate to or respect your your feelings. - he's hiding his feelings from you and/or himself, because he thinks he shouldn't have them, doesn't want you to think he's weak, etc..

Your not reading. Instead of taking me out of context, perhaps you should include the fact that I said showing emotion in some contexts was fine.

i'll quote myself here...

"Yes it's ok for him to display emotion, and in some cases it is appropriate. I'd expect him to cry if someone close to him died, or something of that nature."

But I would wonder why he's not being a man if for example we got in some sort of an accident or trouble, and instead of taking action, he started freaking out. I'm not Shimmer, I woulnd't last a second in the military, and i dont typically do well in intense situations. So it's a guarentee that i'll already be panicing. I would really freak out if instead of telling me that it will be ok, he was panicing with me.

Quote:

Wanting him to be the decision maker just sounds like you don't like responsibility (which I can certainly relate to- I hate responsibility). Personally, I feel 'stronger' if my partner cries when I do. The fact she's acting that way too adds justification to my actions. If I'm crying while she's not, I'm more likely to feel silly or ashamed for my 'weakness'.

Well thats obvious, your not attracted to masculinity. You value feminine traits in your partner, and also are not attracted to men.



Quote:

The roles you listed are so traditional/stereotypical. Society is busy telling men and women that the gender stereotypes we grew up with aren't important, but you prefer them. It's just such an odd concept to me. Especially coming from a girl, since women are the ones behind this societal change.

I listed those roles as an example, because thats how things work best in the family I was raised in. My Mom works 8 hours a day, my dad works 12 many days, and even brings work home. He's in the office on weekends for hours sometimes. He's also often gone for weekends, 1 week, 2 weeks. Sometimes he's only home a day or 2 before packing and flying again. He's got an important position in his company, and manages the entire West Coast opperations for his company (West of Mississippi), including new development in S. Korea. If my Mom didn't do the house work, who would?

FYI when the huge trees in the backyard needed trimming who was out there with the saw cutting down limbs, bagging leaves, raking, etc? It sure wasn't my Mom or myself. Sure she could do that, and he could wash the kitchen floor, but I think it's a better use of the limited resources families have if he does the harder physical labor since he's a lot stronger.

Quote:

And that's how I feel about emotional support. Girls who don't give me a shoulder to cry on when I need it don't get further than that, let alone to a romantic relationship.

But again thats because your very feminine. I have always been able to cry on a shoulder of a guy I've dated. He might not always know what to say, but his arm around while he rubs my back is usually enough.


Quote:

Well, that's fine. There are bound to be things like that in any relationship. To me it's more of a regrettable necessity of people being so complicated- we're bound to dislike some things our partners like. I just don't see why you prefer it that way.

Again your not reading. I dont dislike the fact that guys I've dated are into sports. I'm just personally not into sports. I dont have to be into everything he's into. And I doubt any man hates the fact that his signifigant other takes pride in her appearance. If anything I've heard more guys complain that once their girlfriends got "comfortable" in their relationship, they stopped trying as much as they did when the relationship was new (I'll sort Ryan Seacrest on 102.7 KIISFM as my reference! lol) But I dont find it odd in any way that he doesn't like makeup on his face. And I'm not gonna be upset with him if he refuses to let me make him up, even if I would be the only one to ever see him. He just doesn't want anything to do with it, nothing wrong with that.

[quote[Hmm. What do you think are the underlying reasons he acts that way though? I can't think of any which would be respectable.[/quote]

I think your opinion on that is biased is all. The underlying reason that when i took my 182 brush and snuck up on the guy I recently started seeing and brushed it across the back of his neck and on his cheek/chin when he turned around, the first thing out of his mouth was, "Is there anything on that brush?" is very simple. He's a GUY. And most guys dont want makeup on their face. It's not because of some underhanded disrespectful reason.

Quote:

One thing seems certain- you and I would make TERRIBLE romantic partners for each other.

Thats obvious, I like men, not girly guys.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark I'd say as long as she's happy and not forced into that lifestyle, good for her for finding what works. I think it's feministic in that she's doing what she wants and isn't conforming to someone else's ideas. Some people just prefer to be that busy and thrive in it, while others do not.

I dont consider her a housewife. She just kept doing what she was doing when she was a single Mom is all. I explain it better in my previous post. It's just what works best in her relationship.

She could be a, "housewife," my dad defeneteley makes enough money now to be the sole breadwinner. But it wasn't always that way. When they met, she made more than he did. She owned the house he moved into and paid the mortgage every month. She was the breadwinner.

She keeps working for the sake of not wanting to have to depend on him for anything. You see posts on here, "My hubby is so nice, he let me buy X,Y,Z." My Mom can buy whatever she wants without asking permission from anyone because she is self sufficient. Same reason I'll be working 40 hours a week when I get married, husbands salary be damned. Because I refuse to have to ask anyone for permisson, especially my husband.

And i'll probably still do the housework. No offense to the guys here... But most men dont really know how to do it right... A few do, I've known OCD men who floors you could eat off of. But if you can't even put your pants away, how well are you gonna clean our house. I'll do the inside, you do the outside, keep our cars clean, etc. Men and Women can both contribute equally to the upkeep of a house, even if they are doing, "gender steriotypical" jobs.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

The roles you listed are so traditional/stereotypical. Society is busy telling men and women that the gender stereotypes we grew up with aren't important, but you prefer them. It's just such an odd concept to me. Especially coming from a girl, since women are the ones behind this societal change.

Interesting note about this societal change...

Since the start of this change, it has seemed that society has gotten worse...in that since the mommy has left the home and the daddy isn't necessarily in the picture on the whole, society has suffered.
I'll elaborate more tomorrow if needed but right now I'm riding the wave of cold medicine. :/

 

[Beauty Mark]

Quote:

I dont consider her a housewife. She just kept doing what she was doing when she was a single Mom is all. I explain it better in my previous post. It's just what works best in her relationship.

Neither do I. Sorry if that wasn't clear. My point is that some people would think that they couldn't be a real feminist and do the housework or they would think ill of your father because your mother does the traditional woman's role.

 

[Raerae]

gotcha

 

[aeni]

Depends on what they're going for. I'm a PMA for an actor who is regularly rugged, has dry skin, and terrible undereye circles (though it's really just his eye sockets and there's nothing to be done there really). So whenever I have to do makeup on him, it's normally some concealor and foundation, Evian mist, light eyeshadow, and sometimes some blush.

Whenever I do my bf's show makeup I always do under eyeliner. It brings out his eyes and I always think eyeliner looks good on guys (to an extent).

 

[Eoraptor]

Well, I guess I was getting sorta off-topic. I do want to say that I wasn't trying to bash Raerae for preferring traditional gender roles. Everyone should be free to act like they want, whether it's a 1950's housewife or butch biker chick. I'm still interested to know what Raerae thinks goes through a guy's head when he acts 'macho' by not showing fear, or being paranoid about makeup on him. The fact he's a guy doesn't explain it- y chromosomes don't dictate behavior like that.

To concentrate on the makeup example, since it's on-topic, I would think a guy who reacts like in your 182 brush example is afraid to appear feminine in front of you, so much so that he fakes extra concern. Is that a good thing? Maybe I don't understand the whole 'male fear of makeup' thing. I know before I decided to try to look femme, I'd act 'afraid' of makeup too. But that was because I secretly liked it and wanted no one to know, which I doubt you think is your guys' rationale.

Quote:

Thats obvious, I like men, not girly guys.

Er... the ol' male pride appears and suggests I feel offended. Funny I should care about having my manhood denied when I strive so hard to be girly. But as Shimmer said, I'm still a man, regardless of my fashion choices, emotional sensitivity, etc..

 

[Shimmer]

Wanna know something funny?
My husband shaves his entire body....head to toe. The only thing that's not shaved is eyebrows, eyelashes, and goatee.
I suppose that could be considered feminine by many, but it detracts none at all from his masculinity.

 

[Hawkeye]

i think masculinity is a mindset.

It's funny because I think anyone could wear any makeup and there really is that defining line between masculine makeup and feminine makeup.

I mean black liner? Masculine. TM, Bronzer can be either.

Eh, personally I dont really care. I do care though if the person is sensitive and is subjecting himself to ridicule and doesnt understand why - then it just is like ouch you know but if hes fine with wearing makeup-whatever floats his boat.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eoraptor I'm still interested to know what Raerae thinks goes through a guy's head when he acts 'macho' by not showing fear, or being paranoid about makeup on him.

And as far as the whole makeup thing, i dont think anything is going on in his head other than, "I dont like makeup."

I dont think most guys are as complicated as you with all your secret desires and feelings of guilt etc that you had which according to you prevented you from wearing MU sooner. Even if tomorow men could wear makeup like yours, and no one would think twice about it, i doubt you'd find most guys doing it. Sure you would find some that felt more comfortable doing it (since right now they would probably get stared at and made fun of). But to say that every guys reasons for disliking MU is something complicated based on their fears of breaking gender steriotypes is just silly. Especially since there are plenty of forms of Male Makeup availible for men to wear that are perfectly acceptable w/in the current male steriotype. Yet not all guys are running to the MAC counter.

Which is a totally diff subjet from your own choices, which involve just as many gender steriotypes. You say you wear "girly" makeup and womens clothes, carry a purse, because you like feeling feminine. Yet your just conforming to what most would consider the typical female steriotype, if anything an extreme version of it. Since I doubt the majority of women prefer MU in the style which you wear it. Obviously you'll find plenty of girls who like that style of MU on Specktra, but on the whole were a fairly niche group. My current best friend carries a wallet in her back pocket instead of a purse, and doesn't own any makeup, but I would never doubt her femininity.

Why do you have to wear dramatic MU to feel feminine? Since i've seen plenty of women who dont wear MU at all, or very plain MU, yet are very feminine.