Boys In Make-Up...opinions.

[Eoraptor]

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And as far as the whole makeup thing, i dont think anything is going on in his head other than, "I dont like makeup."

I don't know. I'd expect a different reaction in that case. For example, I don't like the 'gangsta' culture or look that my ex-gf is somewhat into. If she were to place a gangsta-y fur coat on me, or one of their ridiculous glasses / necklaces / hats, I wouldn't rush to remove it. I'd just let it be known I hated the look, thought I looked stupid, and would not be seen in it publically. Then I'd take it off after she had her laughs. If you worry about what only your partner will see, there's some fear or embarrassment or something going on besides dislike. Or maybe most guys just aren't as objective/calm/rational as I am?

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Why do you have to wear dramatic MU to feel feminine? Since i've seen plenty of women who dont wear MU at all, or very plain MU, yet are very feminine.

Just 'feeling feminine' really isn't my goal, or else I'd wear lingerie and shave my legs and such (which are almost always hidden by jeans). I know for a lot (most?) crossdressers it is an issue, but since no one would see those parts of me, I don't worry if they reflect my personality. Instead, I feel feminine normally, and want my appearance to reflect that. But because very little about my physical form is feminine, I have to show my femininity through additions such as makeup, clothing and accessories. And ironically, the increasing popularity and acceptance of gays and metrosexuals makes my job harder, since that's NOT the look I'm trying to present. So I have to choose things so girly that even they wouldn't wear them. Many women can look feminine in a suit and tie, or no makeup, or a men's hairstyle. But they have the face shape, figure, etc. to accomplish that. I wish I did, but I don't. I'm 6'4", and while thin, I have no breasts or butt. And you've seen my face in my FOTD's. But if you have suggestions for how someone like me can look feminine without stereotypically female fashion and beauty styles, I'd be interested to hear them.

Oh, and I hope all this debating hasn't resulted in any hard feelings towards me, Raerae. I've said a few things that sounded unduly harsh when I reread them, and certainly didn't mean to put you down. I'm just very interested in your reasoning and thoughts on guys' reasoning in several subjects. *hugs*

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Eoraptor Oh, and I hope all this debating hasn't resulted in any hard feelings towards me, Raerae. I've said a few things that sounded unduly harsh when I reread them, and certainly didn't mean to put you down. I'm just very interested in your reasoning and thoughts on guys' reasoning in several subjects. *hugs*

nope just chit chat.

 

[Shimmer]

It isn't insulting, or offensive, it's simply an interesting dichotomy that you strive very hard to present a feminine appearance to reflect your perception of yourself, yet when question of your masculinity is raised (or insinuated) you take offense...which leads to the question, how can you expect to have both worlds?
If you choose to present yourself in an exxageratedly feminine manner it would be reasonable that you should expect that your masculinity would be questioned, would it not?

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Eoraptor But if you have suggestions for how someone like me can look feminine without stereotypically female fashion and beauty styles, I'd be interested to hear them.

I tend to think personality, body language, etc go farther than physical appearance on many levels.

I'll be frank here... No disrespect intended, i promise.

Not picking in yah or anything (and some might disagree), but when i see guys like yourself out in public, or posting FoTD's on MU forums, I have a hard time getting past my first impression... Which just comes across to me as, overdone?

Since as you said yourself, "So I have to choose things so girly that even they wouldn't wear them."

I can sum up my reaction in 3 words, "OH MY GOD" in a surprised tone of voice (i love those 3 words lol, so many meanings!). Since it's the exact same reaction I had when i looked at your first FoTD. And I'd probably poke my friends so they could look too. I know they would do the same. I dont think I'm doing it to be mean, but it's just so out there and uncommon that I woulndn't be able to not look.

I also know that the last thing that is going across my mind is that you feel like this:
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Just 'feeling feminine' really isn't my goal, or else I'd wear lingerie and shave my legs and such (which are almost always hidden by jeans). I know for a lot (most?) crossdressers it is an issue, but since no one would see those parts of me, I don't worry if they reflect my personality. Instead, I feel feminine normally, and want my appearance to reflect that. But because very little about my physical form is feminine, I have to show my femininity through additions such as makeup, clothing and accessories.

Obviously I know different now, since i've read posts, and had discussions (like this one) with you. But for the majority of people out there this probably isn't an option. So all you have is that first impression.

I dunno, maybe take a page out the beauty book with regards to, "less being more." That way you can let who you are on the inside shine through, instead of letting the outside do all the talking. Since at least from my impressions, it's sending a lot of mixed messages.

<shrug> I dunno what else to say, this is new territory for me.

 

[Eoraptor]

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It isn't insulting, or offensive, it's simply an interesting dichotomy that you strive very hard to present a feminine appearance to reflect your perception of yourself, yet when question of your masculinity is raised (or insinuated) you take offense...which leads to the question, how can you expect to have both worlds? If you choose to present yourself in an exxageratedly feminine manner it would be reasonable that you should expect that your masculinity would be questioned, would it not?

I was interested by my reaction too. It's due to the specific words used- claiming I'm not a man. If Raerae would have said I'm not manly, or not masculine, I'd have had absolutely no problem. In fact, I'd probably smile a bit inside, like I do when I'm called feminine, girly, effeminate, etc.. Because I strive very hard to not be masculine, as you say. And yet, I am a man. I view myself as a man, and I must take some pride in some part of that (though I don't think I'd mind not being a man). I haven't asked you Specktra ladies to refer to me as she or her, or to use some femme version of my name like Miki, for instance. Do you think that's unreasonable that I expect to "have both worlds"? Should I just ask everyone to think of and refer to me as a girl instead of a guy? I've never thought of it that way, I've always thought being addressed as a guy was more honest.

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I tend to think personality, body language, etc go farther than physical appearance on many levels. I'll be frank here... No disrespect intended, i promise. Not picking in yah or anything (and some might disagree), but when i see guys like yourself out in public, or posting FoTD's on MU forums, I have a hard time getting past my first impression... Which just comes across to me as, overdone?

Well, you've seen I have a feminine personality (at least part of it). Body language and movement is HARD to learn, and I really need to try harder with that.

Question- do you have the first impression of "overdone" when you see most of the girls' looks here on Specktra, which are often as colorful and bold as mine? I mean yes, I'm not a girl, but if I were a girl, I'd be the kind who comes here to Specktra and posts colorful looks. So the fact I'm stuck being a guy shouldn't make me deserve a different reaction if you're trying to think of me in a feminine manner.

Also of note is that I generally wear simpler makeup than in my FOTD's. Yes, I wear my FOTD makeup out, but I usually don't have time to do much more than one shade of eyeshadow on the lid, etc.. Plus my outfits are pretty conservative in style even if some are feminine colors. No skirts, dresses, tops with low necklines, etc.. Maybe I'll try a subdued FOTD here soon and see how it goes over...

 

[Shimmer]

Can you not see though, how dressing in such an overtly feminine way would affect a stranger's view of you as a man? Quite honestly, I would not know what to reference you as, were I speaking of you to a third party, not because I am deliberately being rude but because there is confusion there. He? She? A stranger (me) would be reluctant to say "He" because everything (from my vantage point) is so exaggeratedly feminine. I would not want to say "she" because while you're dressed as a female, you're obviously a male.

 

[Beauty Mark]

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Can you not see though, how dressing in such an overtly feminine way would affect a stranger's view of you as a man?

I go with a gender=sex until told otherwise. Butch lesbians will be more offended if you call them by masculine names than trannies in my experience.

It gets really confusing sometimes, and I'll be honest that I don't always understand it. I knew some female-to-male transgendered people who claimed to be male and dressed more femininely than I.

 

[Shimmer]

See, and I've got a stud (lesbian) friend who really specifically gets annoyed when referred to as a female.
She (I just can't call her him, I don't know why, I think it's because I met this person as a female...) lives her life as a man. Pees standing up, dresses as a man, comports herself as a man, etc. S/He gets quite offended at being portrayed as the femme role, as that's his/her partner's role in the relationship.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer It isn't insulting, or offensive, it's simply an interesting dichotomy that you strive very hard to present a feminine appearance to reflect your perception of yourself, yet when question of your masculinity is raised (or insinuated) you take offense...which leads to the question, how can you expect to have both worlds? If you choose to present yourself in an exxageratedly feminine manner it would be reasonable that you should expect that your masculinity would be questioned, would it not?

Wow Shim... This is totally the same thing I was thinking, just you put it in a lot better words.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Eoraptor Question- do you have the first impression of "overdone" when you see most of the girls' looks here on Specktra, which are often as colorful and bold as mine? I mean yes, I'm not a girl, but if I were a girl, I'd be the kind who comes here to Specktra and posts colorful looks.

The following is a ReaRea opinion:

Depends on the girl, as well as the reasons behind the MU.

I've had the same OMG response to FoTD's that other girls post as well. Like I said earlier, I dont think many people can carry off extremely bold looks for day to day wear. And in my opinion (and I stress opinion) wearing bold colors on a daily basis involves a measure of restraint in aplication. It's one thing to use Electric Eel as an accent color for some pop, a liner, or a part of a lid color for an "I'm going to the grochery store FoTD." It's a whole nother thing to have Electric Eel from lid to brow when going to the store.

Quoting Kevin Aucoin author of Face Forward, "The secret to using vivod colors is to start ou with a small amount, then blend and soften. Check the overall effect first before adding more product, which may quickly become too intense."

And personally believe thats a very good rule of thumb for day to day wear. Obviously there are exceptions depending on the occasion.

The other thing to remember is that the bolder the colors used, the better and more controled the application has to be. Bolder colors are harder to blend than more subtle colors/neutrals. So to pull off bolder colors in situations where they are not normally worn requires imho a more refined and practised hand. Else it end up looking sloppy and, "drag queenish." Something I think you have to be especially careful of, more so than any of the girls posting their FoTD's of the MU they wore out for the day.

As i said b4, first impressions are worth a thousand words... And considernig how confused we are (and we probably know you better then someone looking at you from across the room), imagine a total stranger.

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So the fact I'm stuck being a guy shouldn't make me deserve a different reaction if you're trying to think of me in a feminine manner.

See... your confusing me again lol... Now your saying your stuck being a guy? So you want to be a girl? But A moment ago your saying how you like your masculinity and how you identify with being a guy?

 

[Beauty Mark]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer See, and I've got a stud (lesbian) friend who really specifically gets annoyed when referred to as a female. She (I just can't call her him, I don't know why, I think it's because I met this person as a female...) lives her life as a man. Pees standing up, dresses as a man, comports herself as a man, etc. S/He gets quite offended at being portrayed as the femme role, as that's his/her partner's role in the relationship.

No offense to your friend, but it seems silly that he would be annoyed that someone would initially refer to him as a she. Awareness of non-traditional identities is fairly new.

 

[caffn8me]

I know we have topic-drift here but I have a butch lesbian friend who insists on being referred to by gender neutral pronouns - zie instead of he/she and and zir instead of him/her. I have to admit I have a hard time getting my head around this! You can see more examples of gender neutral pronouns here. I think the biggest difficulty is that there are no accepted standards (in other words people keep making up new gender neutral pronouns) so no common usage has been established.

 

[Shimmer]

I think the annoyance comes from the fact that the presentation is such that if you don't KNOW...you'd think you were interacting with a male.

 

[Eoraptor]

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Can you not see though, how dressing in such an overtly feminine way would affect a stranger's view of you as a man? Quite honestly, I would not know what to reference you as, were I speaking of you to a third party, not because I am deliberately being rude but because there is confusion there. He? She? A stranger (me) would be reluctant to say "He" because everything (from my vantage point) is so exaggeratedly feminine. I would not want to say "she" because while you're dressed as a female, you're obviously a male.

I think the issue here is masculinity vs. manhood.
Does my appearence lead strangers to question my masculinity? Of course, as it should! And that's a response I like, because I feel feminine and I'm trying to appear that way.
But does my appearence lead strangers to question my manhood? As you say, I'm obviously a male, so I don't see that it should. I'm not going to complain if someone calls me a girl/she/her*. I may giggle, and if they seriously think I am (it's happened), I'll feel flattered. But I don't think of myself that way, and don't expect others to either. Notice I've referred to myself as a girly guy (=man) since the start of my time here on Specktra.
Of course, people like Shimmer's friend show not everyone feels the same way I do about this. Which means it's understandable you wouldn't know how to address me, and if you asked me, I would be happy to tell you I prefer to be thought of as a 'him' because I'm male.

* And yet, I had issue with Raerae saying she liked "men, not girly guys". Hmm... Maybe it was because it was in the context of a romantic/sexual relationship. In that situation, I take some pride in being the man. I open doors for any ladies I'm with, for instance. When Jenny and I were venturing back to the car at night in a dark forest far from any town, I held her close when she was panicing and confidantly led the way. When we were installing her blinds last weekend, and it turned out she was pretty terrible at carpentry, I did most of the work and solved some problems. I was happy she was proud of my success at the 'masculine' task. Then there's the whole issue of the sexual aspects of manhood, in which I'm not lacking. Of course we still cry at movies together, I still come to her with my emotional problems, and I still wear makeup. But maybe I'm more of a man than this conversation has so far indicated. Or maybe I just have different ideas regarding what "being a man" should be about.

 

[Raerae]

um, i think this is getting more and more confusing lol...

 

[Shimmer]

indeed.

 

[Raerae]

Eoraptor, post a pic of you b4 you went girly

 

[Eoraptor]

Before I went girly, eh? Well, I feel there needs to be a bit of background. Before I even decided to look feminine, I never shaved. For two reasons. One, it helped hide the fact I felt girly, as I was very embarrassed about it. Surely if Mickey were girly, he wouldn't have a beard, right? Two, I was insulted for my facial hair at school, and I felt shaving would mean giving in to my peers, so I stubbornly kept it. Also note that because the only part of me that cares about fashion and style is my girly side, I really didn't care what I wore, and chose my hairstyle and clothing more out of apathy than anything else. So, bearing those things in mind, here's what I looked like for my highschool graduation in 2000- *cringe*

Ughh. As you can tell, I'm pretty embarrassed by it. Here's a MUCH better picture of me from after I decided to be girly (note I shaved, had pierced ears, and long hair), but before I started really trying to look feminine.

 

[caffn8me]

Well, I can honestly say that the first picture you've just posted isn't very girly at all! The second is moving in that direction

 

[MxAxC-_ATTACK]

i honestly felt like i was looking at 2 totally differnt people.
the first has that.. rabbi look
The second I honestly dont find Feminine
Then again I live in CA , Where most guys have that length of hair peirced ears. and ride motorcycles.

My boyfriend let me put makeup on him (after MUCH begging ) but it only consisted of powder and some darker shade of lipglass.. lol he refused the eyemakeup. but i think thats due to the fact that he hates anything getting near his eye. (he cringes when He watches me put on mascara)
He promptly washed it off.
also. something slightly related
I have a raised offroad ford explorer.. and I have.. a hot pink brush guard bumper.. HOT FREAKING PINK because i want everyone to know Im the only girl in my offroading club.
He drives it . no problem.. He built it. he painted it.
He drove it to L.A with 4 other dudes in the car.

Other guys Give me shit for it and refuse to ride in my pink dream.
I find it stupid.