California - Prop 8 - PASSED

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by CellyCell I'm so sad it passed. I want to let folks know it wasn't all of Californians who voted yes (I don't like when folks use generalized terms) and I come from an immigrant Hispanic background and we all voted No. Even my very religious, Catholic grandma was for it but then thought "everyone should be happy" and voted no. I dunno if has been responded to yet (I skimmed a lot of the pages) but the 17,000+ folks who married here are and will be considered legal marriages. If we now have our first Black president, I'm sure gay marriage will follow in the future... change takes time

Im glad you said that. because I was thinking that

The acceptance of people actually being gay is pretty new in this country---... unfortunatley there are a lot of people that are very unaccepting and close minded toward homosexuals...

change WILL happen.. eventually. As sad as it is that it isn't now... it will happen... who knows.. in a few terms we might be seeing the first openly gay president.. or open lesbian president-- woot, woot!

 

[Monakhd]

HI Everybody,

I live in CA, I am straight and I am muslim. I voted against Prop 8.

From what I've learned. the original California Constution phrasing did not specify gender- just "parties involved". Then, in the 70's they actually amended the California Constitution to clarify that it was between a man and a woman. Then the governor vetoed the legal recognition of same sex marriages (the act itself) twice (in 2005 and 2007), saying that it is unconstitional for this to be decided by legislative action. Which brings us to why it ended up on my stupid ballot.

The issue at hand here is that hate spreads like wildfires, even in this decade. I saw a woman at 2am in the middle of the pouring rain (and I mean POURING) get out of her car to post a "YES on PROP 8" sign near the road. That kind of dedication to hate still astounds me. The Mormon Church alone had a HUGE arsenal and rallied/donated like something you wouldn't BELIEVE to Yes on Prop 8.

It's interesting to note (and please, dont take offense!) that the same church that upholds same sex marriage as immoral sees nothing immoral or unrighteous about polygamy (30+ wives), statutory rape (9 year old wives) and incest (cousins/sons/brothers forcing sex upon their next of kin, now turned "wives").

Frankly, I'd say they are the LAST group of people to preach and campaign against "immorality" within marriage, wouldn't you agree?

 

[OfficerJenny]

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Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Just want to disclaimer right now that although I am against gay marriage--I am only against gay marriage in the catholic church. I believe that people who are gay should be able to get married but NOT inthe church of which some claim to be a part of if that church does not support gay marriage. I dont believe in gay marriage but that's my opinion. And that only lies in the relms of how the Catholic Church is concerned... I hope that makes sense

And the Gay Catholic people who wish to get married in their church do what now?

EDIT: Wait, what? How can you not believe in gay marriage? there isn't anything make believe about it.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by OfficerJenny And the Gay Catholic people who wish to get married in their church do what now?

They dont. They get married outside of the church. Most people dont understand that the Catholic Church is against homosexual marriage (but not always against homosexuality).... it believes that a marriage is between a man and a woman because a marriage is in place in order to produce children. Since homosexual couples can not natural produce children then the church deems the union "unnatural."

the Church is simultaneously against discrimination and denounces depriving gay and lesbians of most civil rights or exposing them to persecution. Thus, Catholicism affords dignity to homosexuals, but opposes laws about homosexuality. The two stances are compatible, but complicated.

The "beliefs" about homosexuality in general with the Catholic church have actually been extreamly lax withing the last few decades. The Catholic Church is actually EXTREAMLY accepting of homosexuals

I read a great article a few weeks ago actually on this exact subject and it really opened my eyes to how much things have changed in the church!

At some point, the hierarchy will have to decide if gay civil marriage is worth all the energy and resources it takes to fight it. After all, a generation ago U.S. Catholicism decided to accept civil divorce for Catholics. Catholics still may not divorce and remarry in the Church, but they may avail themselves of the legal protections afforded by public divorce laws. In a similar way, it is possible that the Church may realize that other issues are clearer to Catholic America than opposition to same-sex civil marriage.

Like i said- things will change.. but it will take time

Personally I agree with my church's teachings... but pray at the same time that things will hopefully become more accepting of the way things are becoming,... which I think in a lot of ways, with the church, it has

 

[TISH1124]

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Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 They dont. They get married outside of the church. Most people dont understand that the Catholic Church is against homosexual marriage

Just FYI this is not an exclusive to Catholic Churches

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by OfficerJenny And the Gay Catholic people who wish to get married in their church do what now? EDIT: Wait, what? How can you not believe in gay marriage? there isn't anything make believe about it.

Chad I think you're mixing my words around. I think you understand very well that I mean that I dont believe in the idea of gay marriage taking place in the Catholic Church. I believe that a Catholic marriage is between a man and a woman... But I am accepting of homosexuals marrying outside of the church. I refuse to judge anyone because I am not God... but that doesnt mean i have to AGREE with the decisions.

Like I've stated before- if people are in love and they want to have a legal marriage then go right ahead. I do not however, believe that they should denounce the beliefs of the church by demanding a Catholic marriage.

But once again, this all goes back to a seperation of church and state, like mac_pixie said!

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by TISH1127 Just FYI this is not an exclusive to Catholic Churches

Oh I know that, I just do not feel comfortable speaking for other religions because Im not as well informed on their church's beliefs. I dont believe I should be assuming things about religions that im not as familiar with. However, I did go to catholic school for 12 years, and my mom's a catholic school teacher... so.. while i most DEF dont know everything- I hope that I am a little bit more well versed in my catholisism

 

[OfficerJenny]

It was kind of a rhetorical question. Just because most Catholic Churches are against gay marriage doesn't mean all of them are. No one should be forced to marry in a different place, physically, because of who they wish to marry.

etc etc i don't really wanna argue i just think if i wanna get married in a church i have every right to do that.

 

[TISH1124]

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Originally Posted by OfficerJenny It was kind of a rhetorical question. Just because most Catholic Churches are against gay marriage doesn't mean all of them are. No one should be forced to marry in a different place, physically, because of who they wish to marry. etc etc i don't really wanna argue i just think if i wanna get married in a church i have every right to do that.

You do have that right to marry where you want...However, It's up to the Minister of that church to make the final decision on whether or not he/she will allow it to performed in their church.

Ex: My dh's Minister would not allow us to get married in his church because we were of different religions...We just got married in my church .... Not the one we wanted...But it really didn't matter at the end of the day to us..we just wanted to be married.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by OfficerJenny It was kind of a rhetorical question. Just because most Catholic Churches are against gay marriage doesn't mean all of them are. No one should be forced to marry in a different place, physically, because of who they wish to marry. etc etc i don't really wanna argue i just think if i wanna get married in a church i have every right to do that.

I'm sorry, and it's nothing personal.. but I dont think that's right at all. I get the feeling that you dont really know a lot about the Catholic Church. You say just because most Catholic Churches are against gay marriages doesnt mean all of them are. This is a false statment. Some specific diocese of the Church may be more accepting of the act of homosexuality... meaning their preists of bishop might have more liberal views... but the Church as a whole is against homosexual marriage. The Catholic Church is viewed as a whole.. not individual sects.

I believe a lot in what my Church teaches, and I find it kind of disrespectful that you would disrespect their teachings and their beliefs just because you would *maybe* want to get married in the Catholic Church. Ive been through a lot to learn about my religion and respect my religion... I dont disrespect your choice as a homosexual to have a legal marriage ... please dont disrespect my, or my church's choice to not accept homosexual marriage. Remember, seperation of Church and State.

I believe you should have a right to get married.... I also believe my Church has a right as a church- as a seperate entity from the state- to say that you can not get married within its walls by a priest. Please respect this thousands of year old religion and its views- just as i respect yours.

 

[OfficerJenny]

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Originally Posted by TISH1127 You do have that right to marry where you want...However, It's up to the Minister of that church to make the final decision on whether or not he/she will allow it to performed in their church. Ex: My dh's Minister would not allow us to get married in his church because we were of different religions...We just got married in my church .... Not the one we wanted...But it really didn't matter at the end of the day to us..we just wanted to be married.

I think it's fine (well, kind of rude, but to each their own) that a specific person will not marry you, but I don't think it should be ruled out entirely

likeee

Oh this catholic/christian/mormon/whateverreligion church won't marry me, but the one down the street will

I would be pretty disapointed though, if I was huge on my religion, if I could not marry in my church as part of my faith

That being said, I'm not religious at all and don';t plan on getting married in a church, it's just something that irks me :c

To Adlersmommy(I don't know your real life name omg ;-; ): I don't mean to be disrespectful, I am just expressing my views. I am in no way religious, so I don't know anything at all about the catholic church, or anything else, for that matter. Just stating what I feel.

 

[nelyanaphonexia]

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Originally Posted by AngelBunny I just had to jump in here and add my sentiments, because I was born and raised in Lubbock. It is sad that people are so controlling over the lives of others ... and Lubbock is one of the worst cities in the country for that. According to some polls Lubbock is the second most conservative city in the country, after only Provo, Utah! Not that I am saying that conservative views in and of themselves are only to blame ... but some places are completely NON progressive, and West Texas is definitely one of them! I miss my home, but I can honestly say that I was glad to get out when I did. The teen pregnancy rates, drug use rates, etc are scary in that part of the country right now. As for issues like Prop Eight I find it offensive to my rights as an American to even have something so assinine on a ballot. Why should I have to vote on if two people want to spend their lives together? It is none of my damn business! Other propositions that pass at times are sickening to me as well ... one of the southern states (Alabama maybe? can't remember at the moment) passed a resolution stating that two unmarried people that are living together cannot adopt or foster kids. As an unmarried mother of two babies myself that lives with but is not and has no plans of every being married to their father, that seems a complete violation of rights. I know for a fact that there are millions of other people like me who would make great foster and adoptive parents, but since someone wants to intrude on that now, in states like Alabama at least, that can't happen! Just sad ... and maddening all at the same time. Ok ... rant over!

Just thought you would like to know as someone who understands/is from West Texas: Lubbock is finally putting the alcohol sales up for a vote in May! We might have the chance to be a wet county/city. Maybe. Of course, my parents will still be here in LBK but I will be long gone. I'm headed to Kansas City in January.

So, not that it will directly affect me, it's just nice to know that there is some sort of progress here. Sorry, this was completely off topic, but interesting none the less. It's probably the most "radical" thing to (or ever) happen in Lubbock.


Back to gay rights: AngelBunny, do you remember the incident (horrible hate crime in my opinion) where there was a young gay boy in LISD who was beat to death in a school parking lot on an early school morning??? I've been told the story by some of my professors at TTU who are locals/were in LBK when it happened, there were witnesses who saw people beating the boy to the point of death and NOTHING happened to the attackers. In fact, I've heard rumors from locals that not only was NOTHING done, but the attackers were almost "congratulated" for "offing one of those kids." I don't know the story personaly, but was wondering if you knew anything about it. It's just another example of homosexual Americans having less rights than heterosexual Americans.

Sometimes, I just don't understand West Texas. When I first heard that story, I cried because I can't believe that one human being could be so cruel to another and not get punished. What ever happened to the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness??

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by OfficerJenny To Adlersmommy(I don't know your real life name omg ;- : I don't mean to be disrespectful, I am just expressing my views. I am in no way religious, so I don't know anything at all about the catholic church, or anything else, for that matter. Just stating what I feel.

It's Melissa.. but it's cool- I only know yours because its in your sig

haha

and each of us has our own opinions.. the important thing is that we can respect them

 

[TISH1124]

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Originally Posted by nelyanaphonexia Back to gay rights: AngelBunny, do you remember the incident (horrible hate crime in my opinion) where there was a young gay boy in LISD who was beat to death in a school parking lot on an early school morning??? I've been told the story by some of my professors at TTU who are locals/were in LBK when it happened, there were witnesses who saw people beating the boy to the point of death and NOTHING happened to the attackers. In fact, I've heard rumors from locals that not only was NOTHING done, but the attackers were almost "congratulated" for "offing one of those kids." I don't know the story personaly, but was wondering if you knew anything about it. It's just another example of homosexual Americans having less rights than heterosexual Americans. Sometimes, I just don't understand West Texas. When I first heard that story, I cried because I can't believe that one human being could be so cruel to another and not get punished. What ever happened to the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness??

Yeah who could forget this story...It was one the most horrible thing I had ever heard!

 

[Beauty Mark]

Churches should be allowed to marry whomever they want; I'm greatly under the impression that can choose right now, so if you decide to marry a scumbag, your preacher/priest/whoever can say no to marrying you. Banning gay marriage takes away that right to churches by just straight up saying "No" even though I know the Unitarians (and yes, they are church) would marry a same-sex couple.

Legally, same-sex marriage should be allowed. It's discrimination, and I haven't seen a single argument yet that makes sense.

And if people are financially and mentally sound enough to provide a good home for kids, I think they should be allowed to adopt. Maybe when we're flooded with tons of heterosexual couples and not enough kids to be fostered/adopted we can start discriminating against gays and singles, but until that happens, I don't see what's the big deal. Even with single parent households. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than nothing. So many good children have no sense of family or anything like that. Why not at least attempt to provide them with that?

 

[TISH1124]

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Originally Posted by Beauty Mark Churches should be allowed to marry whomever they want; I'm greatly under the impression that can choose right now, so if you decide to marry a scumbag, your preacher/priest/whoever can say no to marrying you. Banning gay marriage takes away that right to churches by just straight up saying "No" even though I know the Unitarians (and yes, they are church) would marry a same-sex couple. Legally, same-sex marriage should be allowed. It's discrimination, and I haven't seen a single argument yet that makes sense. And if people are financially and mentally sound enough to provide a good home for kids, I think they should be allowed to adopt. Maybe when we're flooded with tons of heterosexual couples and not enough kids to be fostered/adopted we can start discriminating against gays and singles, but until that happens, I don't see what's the big deal. Even with single parent households. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than nothing. So many good children have no sense of family or anything like that. Why not at least attempt to provide them with that?

I don't think anyone is arguing that point...everyone on here pretty much agrees that people should be able to marry who they want...Or Are you just speaking in general?

 

[MrsRjizzle]

I think it's fine (well, kind of rude, but to each their own) that a specific person will not marry you, but I don't think it should be ruled out entirely

likeee

Oh this catholic/christian/mormon/whateverreligion church won't marry me, but the one down the street will

I would be pretty disapointed though, if I was huge on my religion, if I could not marry in my church as part of my faith

That being said, I'm not religious at all and don';t plan on getting married in a church, it's just something that irks me :c

Just like every person is diffrent, every church is diffrent as well. The belief's against homosexuality are pretty much the same in all religions. However I dont feel the church has the right "judge" anyone who is there looking to strengthen their relationship with God. I think if you were part of a certain church, and wanted to get married in that church that would be alot simplier. Then just calling around and looking for an empty chapel and a random preacher to perform the service.

 

[Beauty Mark]

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Originally Posted by TISH1127 I don't think anyone is arguing that point...everyone on here pretty much agrees that people should be able to marry who they want...Or Are you just speaking in general?

Generally.

 

[TISH1124]

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Originally Posted by Beauty Mark Generally.

Gotcha!!

 

[NutMeg]

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Originally Posted by Monakhd It's interesting to note (and please, dont take offense!) that the same church that upholds same sex marriage as immoral sees nothing immoral or unrighteous about polygamy (30+ wives), statutory rape (9 year old wives) and incest (cousins/sons/brothers forcing sex upon their next of kin, now turned "wives"). Frankly, I'd say they are the LAST group of people to preach and campaign against "immorality" within marriage, wouldn't you agree?

I suggest you learn more about the LDS (Mormon) Church before you make statements like that, because a little research into it would show you that your statements above are completely in error. What is commonly know as the Mormon Church is called the Church of the Latter Day Saints (LDS), and while I definitely do not agree with a lot of their practices they do not practice any of the above (at least not as a part of church policy). A fundamentalist branch of this church, which is not affiliated with the rest of the church, is generally what is known for things like polygamy, and marrying girls off at very young ages. This is the group based out of Utah, and in Bountiful BC, Warren Jeffs and that crowd.

Again, I'm not mormon and I don't agree with a lot of beliefs of that particular church, but it pays to learn a bit about major religions in the world, or at least our part of it.