California - Prop 8 - PASSED

[FullWroth]

Churches should be allowed to refuse to marry homosexuals, just like I can refuse to have someone over at my house if I don't care for their company.

The problem, as people have already mentioned, is that this is being ruled on as a LEGAL matter, which means marriage is being seen as a SECULAR issue. By banning gay marriage, you're blocking a SECULAR issue due solely to the beliefs of a HANDFUL of VERY SPECIFIC religions that all stem from the same source, 'cause I sure as hell don't see the Taoists, Buddhists, Shintoists, (Neo)Pagans of all kinds, Santeros, Native American religions' followers, Hindus, Zoroastrians, and all the other billions of religions in the world protesting gay marriage. I don't even see a whole lot of Jews protesting it, honestly.

If a priest says he thinks homosexuality is a sin and he can't in good conscience marry two homosexuals, I'll support his right to do that (although I will argue that his belief is based on an incredibly poor understanding of the Bible, which is shameful in a clergyman, but that's another beast entirely).

But if the state says they can't legalize the marriage of two homosexuals because the priest has a problem with it, they need to be whipped with a copy of the First Amendment.

 

[Zoffe]

I don't even live in the US but this makes me so sad.

Here in Denmark it is possible for a homosexual couple to get married and I just don't understand why it should not be!

Even if your religion says that homosexuality is wrong I just don't see why it's up to anyone but the homosexuals to decide if they want to get married!

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monakhd HI Everybody, I live in CA, I am straight and I am muslim. I voted against Prop 8. From what I've learned. the original California Constution phrasing did not specify gender- just "parties involved". Then, in the 70's they actually amended the California Constitution to clarify that it was between a man and a woman. Then the governor vetoed the legal recognition of same sex marriages (the act itself) twice (in 2005 and 2007), saying that it is unconstitional for this to be decided by legislative action. Which brings us to why it ended up on my stupid ballot. The issue at hand here is that hate spreads like wildfires, even in this decade. I saw a woman at 2am in the middle of the pouring rain (and I mean POURING) get out of her car to post a "YES on PROP 8" sign near the road. That kind of dedication to hate still astounds me. The Mormon Church alone had a HUGE arsenal and rallied/donated like something you wouldn't BELIEVE to Yes on Prop 8. It's interesting to note (and please, dont take offense!) that the same church that upholds same sex marriage as immoral sees nothing immoral or unrighteous about polygamy (30+ wives), statutory rape (9 year old wives) and incest (cousins/sons/brothers forcing sex upon their next of kin, now turned "wives"). Frankly, I'd say they are the LAST group of people to preach and campaign against "immorality" within marriage, wouldn't you agree?

LDS does not equal FLDS. Oh, I should read first. I see the super awesome Nutmeg beat me to it.



Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 it believes that a marriage is between a man and a woman because a marriage is in place in order to produce children. Since homosexual couples can not natural produce children then the church deems the union "unnatural."

So I'll expect to see them start refusing marriage rites to women who've passed menopause and men and women who are infertile. Cool.




I think a church should be able to make whatever decisions it wants to about who it marries.What I don't accept is that they have any right whatsoever to dictate who the state marries. Not only is a disturbing violation of the separation of church and state, but it's beyond arrogant. And a seriously slippery slope.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* LDS does not equal FLDS. Oh, I should read first. I see the super awesome Nutmeg beat me to it. So I'll expect to see them start refusing marriage rites to women who've passed menopause and men and women who are infertile. Cool. I think a church should be able to make whatever decisions it wants to about who it marries.What I don't accept is that they have any right whatsoever to dictate who the state marries. Not only is a disturbing violation of the separation of church and state, but it's beyond arrogant. And a seriously slippery slope.

First of all- I dont understrand for a second why you are trying to pick a fight with me... maybe im misunderstanding your responces to EVERYTHING I've wrote.. but every single thing Ive responded to you've replied to with utter disdain and sacrcasim.. Im not sure what I did to offend you but I'd like to know...

And once more, Im not sure where I see any churches trying to dictate what the government does.....

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 First of all- I dont understrand for a second why you are trying to pick a fight with me... maybe im misunderstanding your responces to EVERYTHING I've wrote.. but every single thing Ive responded to you've replied to with utter disdain and sacrcasim.. Im not sure what I did to offend you but I'd like to know... And once more, Im not sure where I see any churches trying to dictate what the government does.....

Maybe you should check into the institutions who helped fund the fight for Proposition 8.

I'm offended by the arguments you continue to present on behalf of the Catholic Church. But then, I find most everything about the Catholic Church to be offensive.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NutMeg I suggest you learn more about the LDS (Mormon) Church before you make statements like that, because a little research into it would show you that your statements above are completely in error. What is commonly know as the Mormon Church is called the Church of the Latter Day Saints (LDS), and while I definitely do not agree with a lot of their practices they do not practice any of the above (at least not as a part of church policy). A fundamentalist branch of this church, which is not affiliated with the rest of the church, is generally what is known for things like polygamy, and marrying girls off at very young ages. This is the group based out of Utah, and in Bountiful BC, Warren Jeffs and that crowd. Again, I'm not mormon and I don't agree with a lot of beliefs of that particular church, but it pays to learn a bit about major religions in the world, or at least our part of it.

Just a question, but do you know why the LDS doesn't do those things anymore?

 

[ohnna-lee]

whatever... I'm tired and will respond to this when I've slept

 

[xxManBeaterxx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 And once more, Im not sure where I see any churches trying to dictate what the government does.....

This is my point of view

Who the hexor thought about this prop 8 bill?? The people from Protect Marriage - Yes on 8 » Home Page did. I read somewhere that they are mainly people from Christian/catholic churches who banned together to basically impose their belief system that gay marriage is a sin. Who gives them that right? We live in America right? A place for equality and freedom.. or so i thought... Personal religious beliefs should stay out of this.

I am completely making this up but. Lets say i was Buddhist and it just so happens 60% of californians are buddhist as well. And one of their beliefs is something very controversial such as no sex before marriage. They believe that if you are unwed and got pregnant you must give up your child to a married couple when it is born (ok stupid but i couldn't think of a better example) And then a bunch of buddhist temples banned together to change the constitution stating that single females have no right to bare children because they are lower class citizens. And that proposition passed. What the fuck right?? Some people will say first of all im not buddhist so you have no right to force your belief upon me and secondly leave my rights and freedom of choice alone please.

 

[user79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NutMeg I suggest you learn more about the LDS (Mormon) Church before you make statements like that, because a little research into it would show you that your statements above are completely in error. What is commonly know as the Mormon Church is called the Church of the Latter Day Saints (LDS), and while I definitely do not agree with a lot of their practices they do not practice any of the above (at least not as a part of church policy). A fundamentalist branch of this church, which is not affiliated with the rest of the church, is generally what is known for things like polygamy, and marrying girls off at very young ages. This is the group based out of Utah, and in Bountiful BC, Warren Jeffs and that crowd. Again, I'm not mormon and I don't agree with a lot of beliefs of that particular church, but it pays to learn a bit about major religions in the world, or at least our part of it.

There are churches outside of the FLDS who live and preach polygamous societies tho. I'm not sure of their exact names...but there are some. They aren't as sect-like or hardcore as the FLDS but there are mormon communities outsides FLDS who do practice polygamy.

I remember reading the book by Carolyn Jessop (she was married to Merril Jessop, a high-ranking person within the FLDS community under Warren's rule) and she escaped from the community. In her book she talked about all the different churches and how they split...it was pretty interesting. Good read for anyone interested in the FLDS lifestyle.

 

[NutMeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Just a question, but do you know why the LDS doesn't do those things anymore?

I have a few guesses, but I don't want to start church bashing in an election thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous There are churches outside of the FLDS who live and preach polygamous societies tho. I'm not sure of their exact names...but there are some. They aren't as sect-like or hardcore as the FLDS but there are mormon communities outsides FLDS who do practice polygamy. I remember reading the book by Carolyn Jessop (she was married to Merril Jessop, a high-ranking person within the FLDS community under Warren's rule) and she escaped from the community. In her book she talked about all the different churches and how they split...it was pretty interesting. Good read for anyone interested in the FLDS lifestyle.

I read Under The Banner of Heaven, it was pretty good. I've also done a little research on my own. I can't speak to whether or not there are non-FLDS sects that practice polygamy, etc as it was my understanding that most were affiliated with FLDS in some way (although it wouldn't surprise me). My point was that the post which I responded to demonstrated a clear lack of knowledge about the LDS/FLDS divide and it bugged me. I may not like the church very much, but I still want to see accuracy when it comes to discussing their policies.


On a different note, I do believe that churches of any kind are and should be self-regulating bodies (aside from lovely things like abuse and murder, I think the state gets some say in that). The idea of the separation of church and state works both ways, the church(s) should have no control over the governing process, and the government should have little to no control over the church(s). I know Catholics who couldn't get married in a Catholic Church due to a prior divorce on the behalf of the husband, and because of that they refused to raise their children as Catholics, which was pretty hard for the rest of their family. I understand where they were coming from on that, because to my understanding the kids were almost considered to be born out of wedlock, so why raise them in a faith that thought less of them for their parents actions? At the same time, I think the Church has a right to make that call based on their belief system.

Anyway, I could ramble on forever but I've got a midterm in an hour so I'll talk to you folks later.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NutMeg I have a few guesses, but I don't want to start church bashing in an election thread. I read Under The Banner of Heaven, it was pretty good. I've also done a little research on my own. I can't speak to whether or not there are non-FLDS sects that practice polygamy, etc as it was my understanding that most were affiliated with FLDS in some way (although it wouldn't surprise me). My point was that the post which I responded to demonstrated a clear lack of knowledge about the LDS/FLDS divide and it bugged me. I may not like the church very much, but I still want to see accuracy when it comes to discussing their policies.

Yeah I don't want to church bash, I just...ugh. I hate when people say that LDS shouldn't be looked at in the same light as FLDS because they don't practice the same things anymore. :/

 

[blindpassion]

Equality is a right, not a privilege.

Prop 8 needed to be shut down.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* Maybe you should check into the institutions who helped fund the fight for Proposition 8. I'm offended by the arguments you continue to present on behalf of the Catholic Church. But then, I find most everything about the Catholic Church to be offensive.

thats fine if you dont respect the catholic church but there's no need to be upset at me because of my beliefs and my religion. If you dont agree with the church teachings then thats fine- I dont expect you to, nor do I honestly care if you do or not. But dont be disrespectful towards me just because I have a different view than you. Theres no reason to be offended by what I'm saying... I havent said ONCE that I didnt agree that homosexuals should have a right to a legal marriage. Just because Im a member of a church you happen to disagree with or find offensive, doesnt mean that you should be rude to me for voiceing my opinion.

The last thing I want to do is fight or argue about this. If you find the opinions of the church offensive then fine, but I think ive made it very clear that I dont necessarily agree with EVERYTHING the church has to say about gay marriage. I dont think my views are personally offensive at all.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxManBeaterxx This is my point of view Who the hexor thought about this prop 8 bill?? The people from Protect Marriage - Yes on 8 » Home Page did. I read somewhere that they are mainly people from Christian/catholic churches who banned together to basically impose their belief system that gay marriage is a sin. Who gives them that right? We live in America right? A place for equality and freedom.. or so i thought... Personal religious beliefs should stay out of this. I am completely making this up but. Lets say i was Buddhist and it just so happens 60% of californians are buddhist as well. And one of their beliefs is something very controversial such as no sex before marriage. They believe that if you are unwed and got pregnant you must give up your child to a married couple when it is born (ok stupid but i couldn't think of a better example) And then a bunch of buddhist temples banned together to change the constitution stating that single females have no right to bare children because they are lower class citizens. And that proposition passed. What the fuck right?? Some people will say first of all im not buddhist so you have no right to force your belief upon me and secondly leave my rights and freedom of choice alone please.

I agree but I also have to point out that you said a lot of the people were catholic/christian. Which is understandable.. bt when I say that I dont see the CHURCH trying to influence the government... I mean that I dont see the pope meeting with the Cali st. gov't and telling them "you need to make sure prop 8 is passed" or "lets make up this propisistion to try and get gay marriage banned." Is the church open about its unagreement with homosexual marriage? Yes. But-- and maybe I'm wrong... so if I am, someone please correct me--- I havent ONCE seen the catholic leaders interfere in a governmental way or go out of their way to get a bill or proposistion passed in order to ban gay marriage. Ive never heard of a bishop, cardinal, or the Pope calling a senator saying "Hey, wanna sit down and talk about trying to get a ban on gay marriage?"

People are all different religions... and people-- catholics, christians, what have you.. are going to have view points that are against gay marriage.. but theres a big difference between members of a church trying to get gay marriage banned and the actual hierarchy of the church trying to intervien in government law.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Californians Against Hate - Fighting for marriage equality - Proposition 8

Note the number of religious organizations on the list who funded support for Proposition 8. Starting with...

The Knights of Columbus. Or the US Conference of CATHOLIC BISHOPS.

 

[amelia.jayde]

i'm so shocked and disgusted that this actually passed. horrible. i haven't yet seen a sensible argument against gay marriage.

as for the catholic church thing, fair enough if the catholic church doesn't believe in gay marriage... but i don't really think it should be illegal for gay people to get married anywhere, even in a catholic church. if the priest or w/e doesn't want to do gay marriages, then that's fine, i think they should have that choice.. but if some priest feels differently and does want to do a gay marriage, i don't think that should be forbidden by law, either. people have all kinds of different takes on religions. it's a really personal thing.

 

[FullWroth]

For the eternal optimists in the group, Prop 8 hasn't actually been officially passed yet, it seems. According to unconfirmed sources, I'm being told that because there are so many absentee and provisional ballots still being counted (they're estimating 3-4 MILLION), they haven't officially called it yet - the press has. They're now saying they won't know for sure until freakin' DECEMBER whether or not Prop 8 has passed. How's THAT for a nail-biter?

AdlersMommy, I think I'm seeing where the disconnect is for you and the others? When they're saying the church is influencing the vote, you're thinking like, an actual church going and actually doing it (which, in some cases, they ARE trying very hard, but no, the Pope is not stalking our politicians

). I think what they're trying to say is that, because the argument against gay marriage is almost exclusively coming FROM the church, and the REASONS being given to oppose gay marriage are specifically coming from Christian scripture, what the government is doing is changing a LEGAL matter that affects ALL of the people because of a SPECIFIC RELIGION'S beliefs. It is, therefore, a very sticky matter of the government showing preferential treatment to a certain segment of Christianity even when a large number of citizens (hell, even a large number of Christians themselves) don't share those beliefs.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FullWroth For the eternal optimists in the group, Prop 8 hasn't actually been officially passed yet, it seems. According to unconfirmed sources, I'm being told that because there are so many absentee and provisional ballots still being counted (they're estimating 3-4 MILLION), they haven't officially called it yet - the press has. They're now saying they won't know for sure until freakin' DECEMBER whether or not Prop 8 has passed. How's THAT for a nail-biter?

Fingers crossed that the jerks lose in the end.

 

[FullWroth]

I'm also totally up for ferrying gay people over to Canada to get married. I will be your underground rainbow, er, railroad! Canada's only 45 minutes away!

 

[NutMeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amelia.jayde i'm so shocked and disgusted that this actually passed. horrible. i haven't yet seen a sensible argument against gay marriage. as for the catholic church thing, fair enough if the catholic church doesn't believe in gay marriage... but i don't really think it should be illegal for gay people to get married anywhere, even in a catholic church. if the priest or w/e doesn't want to do gay marriages, then that's fine, i think they should have that choice.. but if some priest feels differently and does want to do a gay marriage, i don't think that should be forbidden by law, either. people have all kinds of different takes on religions. it's a really personal thing.

I agree with what you're saying, but I have to point out that this case the law would say nothing about a Catholic priest (I think that was what you were saying) wanting to perform a gay marriage, but the Catholic Church would have a hell of a lot to say about it. It's not a matter of what an individual priest believes, if he's catholic he's going to have to follow their rules. And I don't think that should be regulated by law in any way shape or form.