I found a really weird site that pimps out girls and gives them free breast implants

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous I don't think that indifference to something should be applauded though. It's one thing to say, yeah everyone is free to make their own choices, and another thing to say, yes, it is indeed their free choice, but to look at it critically and evaluate if this is where we want society and Internet culture to be headed? I think feminism does play a role in this because while feminism empowered women with the freedom to make their own choices, the movement wasn't intended to promote girls chosing to be exploited. Sure, they are getting something out of it as well - the breast implants, but many see that as an exploitation of women's bodies in itself, chosen or not. These women are being exploited to an extent, by the website which makes money off them, even with their own agreement, and while everyone who peruses that site knows what their "role" is so to speak, I still consider this a pretty disgusting form of exploitation of the female body. Now, I am not against nudity or some prude who thinks showing pictures of naked bodies is all deplorable, but this website is taking things to an extreme. You have to ask yourself, why do these women even feel the need to get breast implants in the first place? To feel better about themselves because society dictates what women's bodies should look like? While no one admits to that, this is ultimately the reason why most of these women get implants. If society would just accept women's bodies as they are, we wouldn't have nearly as many of them undergoing surgery every year, with tendency rising.

I know why I would get implants...because finding clothes that fit the way my body is shaped is ridiculously difficult. I'm an A cup (B if I'm super 'lucky', and by 'lucky' I mean bloated) with a round backside and broad shoulders. Shirts that accommodate my shoulders are sagging in the front. Shirts that accommodate my boobs (or lack thereof) certainly don't accommodate my shoulders. It's a bit of a trade off.
It's not because people have looked at me and said "You need some tits", it's because proportionally speaking, my physique is off.


If the girls are willing parties, knowing the trade off (and they generally do), it's not really exploitation, it's a business transaction.


Then again, you're talking to someone who thinks strippers who do the job without doing the drugs and falling into the 'scene' are some of the smartest women in the world. Men can be easily parted with their money, in exchange for very little effort, provided the woman can maintain impartiality. More power to the woman who can, because honestly it's a helluva deal, fulfilling those fantasies.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I know why I would get implants...because finding clothes that fit the way my body is shaped is ridiculously difficult. I'm an A cup (B if I'm super 'lucky', and by 'lucky' I mean bloated) with a round backside and broad shoulders. Shirts that accommodate my shoulders are sagging in the front. Shirts that accommodate my boobs (or lack thereof) certainly don't accommodate my shoulders. It's a bit of a trade off. It's not because people have looked at me and said "You need some tits", it's because proportionally speaking, my physique is off.

Wouldn't it be easier, less painful, and cheaper to get ill-fitting clothing tailored to fit you? I'm not saying you haven't thought of this already. It's just my automatic response when people refer to the appeal of cosmetic surgery as a reasonable response to the fact that their bodies do not automatically fit into the ever-changing standards of women's clothing fashion. I doubt there's a woman (or man) on Specktra that is lucky enough to have a body that fits well into the ready-made clothing we all wear on a day to day basis.

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Originally Posted by Shimmer If the girls are willing parties, knowing the trade off (and they generally do), it's not really exploitation, it's a business transaction.

I think it's exploitation on both sides. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it understandable. While I'm happy to stand up for the rights of men and women engaged in this kind of business transaction, I wouldn't want my daughter or son involved in that kind of business. Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't think so. Some businesses operate on the shady gray area that makes people uncomfortable. Receiving money for showing my body is not the same as receiving money for the sale of my car, for example.

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Then again, you're talking to someone who thinks strippers who do the job without doing the drugs and falling into the 'scene' are some of the smartest women in the world. Men can be easily parted with their money, in exchange for very little effort, provided the woman can maintain impartiality. More power to the woman who can, because honestly it's a helluva deal, fulfilling those fantasies.

Until society and our laws can guarantee the safety of the women involved, I don't think the women in the sex industry are some of the smartest women in the world. The only time I've thought some of the women were getting smarter in the stripper trade was when I saw some of the strip joints in Nevada were becoming owned by the strippers themselves, who are now in the position of power to protect themselves and each other. The majority of strip joints aren't palaces full of empowered women. They're full of often-times very vulnerable women subjected to the rules of the club that are almost always owned and managed by men. Those rules can change on a whim, because this industry is not regulated like other business industries. And benefits? Fuggitaboutit. And this is supposed to be a smart choice for women? Not convinced.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Wouldn't it be easier, less painful, and cheaper to get ill-fitting clothing tailored to fit you? I'm not saying you haven't thought of this already. It's just my automatic response when people refer to the appeal of cosmetic surgery as a reasonable response to the fact that their bodies do not automatically fit into the ever-changing standards of women's clothing fashion. I doubt there's a woman (or man) on Specktra that is lucky enough to have a body that fits well into the ready-made clothing we all wear on a day to day basis.

Not really, not when all it would take is about 6K and a reasonable sized implant and I could buy clothes off the rack without a problem. I don't have time, energy, or patience to deal with tailoring every item of clothing I buy to fit my body, particularly when I'm buying something that's seasonal.
Quote:

I think it's exploitation on both sides. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it understandable. While I'm happy to stand up for the rights of men and women engaged in this kind of business transaction, I wouldn't want my daughter or son involved in that kind of business. Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't think so. Some businesses operate on the shady gray area that makes people uncomfortable. Receiving money for showing my body is not the same as receiving money for the sale of my car, for example.

Certainly. Then again, when both sides know what they're doing, why, and they're making the agreement, I can't say too much. There's no (that I can see) disingenuity involved with the site, in that I can't see that the girls are being led one way then forced to go another...were that the case then I would be possibly irritated by it.

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Until society and our laws can guarantee the safety of the women involved, I don't think the women in the sex industry are some of the smartest women in the world. The only time I've thought some of the women were getting smarter in the stripper trade was when I saw some of the strip joints in Nevada were becoming owned by the strippers themselves, who are now in the position of power to protect themselves and each other. The majority of strip joints aren't palaces full of empowered women. They're full of often-times very vulnerable women subjected to the rules of the club that are almost always owned and managed by men. Those rules can change on a whim, because this industry is not regulated like other business industries. And benefits? Fuggitaboutit. And this is supposed to be a smart choice for women? Not convinced.

I said smart women, not the average stripper. I'm talking about the strippers who know the deal, know the job, take it for what it's worth, and then leave it behind. It does happen. Granted the majority are easily led young girls who are simply looking for and at easy money, but there are strippers (the smart ones I'm talking about) who simply know the game, use it, and at the end of the road leave it all behind and go about their lives.

And, ultimately, those women should be responsible for their safety, and not depend on a club to protect their best interests. The club is there to make money, same as any corporate umbrella, and best interests of women it views as commodities is very very low on the list.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Not really, not when all it would take is about 6K and a reasonable sized implant and I could buy clothes off the rack without a problem. I don't have time, energy, or patience to deal with tailoring every item of clothing I buy to fit my body, particularly when I'm buying something that's seasonal.

First, clothing fashion change, no more so rapidly than in the 20th century and the rise of sedentary western life. I'd argue you're just as likely to be in the same exact position with or without new breasts, still trying to fit into clothes that ought to fit but don't, whether that's down to changed sizing standards or just a whim of the manufacturer. And you'll still be down an average of 6k, assuming you're happy with your results and don't require revision surgeries. Second, I don't believe anyone, of any size or shape, can walk into a clothing store and find 5 random tops that automatically fit them perfectly without some kind of compromise. That's just the nature of ready-made clothing. Changing your body shape through cosmetic surgery (or even diet/exercise) won't change the fact that you'll still have to go through a bunch of clothes in a shop before you settle on ones you think you good on you. The question is why you think you look disproportionate. I've seen pics of you, and I envy your figure. None of my thoughts tended towards the idea that you were disproportionately sized.

Bottom line, when it comes to the aesthetic opinion on the shape of women's bodies, I don't believe cosmetic surgery offers any real long term solutions. I honestly believe that's a myth offered by those who really stand to reap long-term benefits from the cosmetic industry - the doctors/surgeons. At best, it offers a short-term solution that may allow one to feel more confident, or more in control of their body image... at least until you start to feel that more work is necessary.

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Originally Posted by Shimmer And, ultimately, those women should be responsible for their safety, and not depend on a club to protect their best interests. The club is there to make money, same as any corporate umbrella, and best interests of women it views as commodities is very very low on the list.

Standard economic business principles state that businesses who protect their employees are acting in the best interest of their business. It makes for happier, more loyal workers. The sex industry doesn't normally work with the interests of their employees in mind. That alone should ring alarm bells as to whether the practices of the industry are ethical or not. I don't agree that businesses should be allowed to exploit their employees just because they're in the business of selling visual erotica.

This isn't about whether flashing one's bits is right or wrong, or even if fucking for cash is okay. It's about giving the full range of protection afforded by law to an employee who has been legally allowed to flash use his or her body for money. That doesn't happen in most strip joints, or in the sex industry in general because society says it's okay for that kind of business to degrade its employees by not providing the same standard of care, benefits and job security/protection offered by even the most mean locally-owned businesses. These 'smart women' you refer to are nothing of the sort if they're accepting to work in a place that offers anything less than what they deserve - i.e., aforementioned care, benefits, job security/protection afforded by law.

Feminism is also about exposing disproportionate balances of power and addressing it so that the marginalised may become empowered.

 

[ratmist]

I realise this isn't precisely on topic, so if you a mod wants to move this to a new thread, please do.

Just to say - it wasn't Nevada, it was California.

When strippers take over the club | Reuters

"One of the first things the dancers did was to toss out rules about maintaining the same body type as the day they were hired, and ones regarding height-weight proportion. A list of acceptable hair colors was scrapped, along with a policy regulating the quantity and location of tattoos."

The only other place where this may be a standard set of rules is perhaps modelling contracts. But even there, the contracts and the industry is heavily regulated.

From the Lusty Lady Theatre website:

"Things went reasonably smoothly for some time until the summer of 1996 when the company's penchant for hiring intelligent and worldly women began to backfire in the form of a unionization drive. It's a notoriously exploitative game in the adult entertainment world, and it began to be a bit stereotypical, what with the random firings and pay cuts, ambiguous shift policies and other unsavory business. There were even several one-way windows where performers could not see the customer they were dancing for. Subsequently, these windows concealed all sorts of camera and video activity, done without the dancer's consent."

Under the conditions cited above, which are quite mild in comparison to how nasty that situation could get, I would argue there's no way for society to view something like the sex industry as a legitimate business. Random firings, pay cuts, ambiguous shift policies, and violation of employee consent is grounds for serious legal action in any other work place - even Wal-Mart. It's only tolerated in this kind of industry because it's women's bodies on show that is for sale. This is enlightenment?

So long as people accept businesses treating women like this as the norm, and as long as women accept being treated like this, there is little room to argue that these women are empowered in their chosen work place.

As far as the internet goes, once you put your image or your video of you shaking your ass for money, you have no idea where it will end up. You don't get the option of saying to someone 5 years later, "Nope that wasn't me on the stage you saw." They have the image, and you get permanent consequences. I don't think it's a bad thing to say, "This is stupid, ladies take the harder road and earn the money another way if you really want cosmetic surgery".

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist First, clothing fashion change, no more so rapidly than in the 20th century and the rise of sedentary western life. I'd argue you're just as likely to be in the same exact position with or without new breasts, still trying to fit into clothes that ought to fit but don't, whether that's down to changed sizing standards or just a whim of the manufacturer. And you'll still be down an average of 6k, assuming you're happy with your results and don't require revision surgeries. Second, I don't believe anyone, of any size or shape, can walk into a clothing store and find 5 random tops that automatically fit them perfectly without some kind of compromise. That's just the nature of ready-made clothing. Changing your body shape through cosmetic surgery (or even diet/exercise) won't change the fact that you'll still have to go through a bunch of clothes in a shop before you settle on ones you think you good on you. The question is why you think you look disproportionate. I've seen pics of you, and I envy your figure. None of my thoughts tended towards the idea that you were disproportionately sized.

I'm not concerned with making some kind of compromise, and, I am flattered you would envy my figure, but trust me, finding the clothes that fit reasonably well IS a pain.
I'm aware aesthetics change, and that's fine. If/when I ever do undergo that type of surgery, it's not for anyone else other than me. I'm not talking about unnatural sized or shaped balloon style implants. In fact, once (if) the procedure is ever done, only those who knew me prior to the surgery would ever guess that I'd had it done.
If it makes me happy, and doesn't hurt anyone else, then really, at the end of the day, it's only my business.
Quote:

Bottom line, when it comes to the aesthetic opinion on the shape of women's bodies, I don't believe cosmetic surgery offers any real long term solutions. I honestly believe that's a myth offered by those who really stand to reap long-term benefits from the cosmetic industry - the doctors/surgeons. At best, it offers a short-term solution that may allow one to feel more confident, or more in control of their body image... at least until you start to feel that more work is necessary.

You don't believe...so it's not right for you. I know many women who have had procedures done, enjoyed the benefits, and moved on with their lives. It was right for them. It doesn't have to be right for you, or anyone else, as long as the patient undergoing the surgery is comfortable with the decision.
Quote:

Standard economic business principles state that businesses who protect their employees are acting in the best interest of their business. It makes for happier, more loyal workers. The sex industry doesn't normally work with the interests of their employees in mind. That alone should ring alarm bells as to whether the practices of the industry are ethical or not. I don't agree that businesses should be allowed to exploit their employees just because they're in the business of selling visual erotica. This isn't about whether flashing one's bits is right or wrong, or even if fucking for cash is okay. It's about giving the full range of protection afforded by law to an employee who has been legally allowed to flash use his or her body for money. That doesn't happen in most strip joints, or in the sex industry in general because society says it's okay for that kind of business to degrade its employees by not providing the same standard of care, benefits and job security/protection offered by even the most mean locally-owned businesses. These 'smart women' you refer to are nothing of the sort if they're accepting to work in a place that offers anything less than what they deserve - i.e., aforementioned care, benefits, job security/protection afforded by law. Feminism is also about exposing disproportionate balances of power and addressing it so that the marginalised may become empowered.

If strippers are going to be afforded those things, and people are going to be up in arms about them not being afforded those things, where is the indignation for the fast food worker whose hours are jacked around so he will never be able to get insurance benefits/401K etc. and if he did it would be out of his price range anyway? Where is the indignation for the blue collar workers who are just out of reach for being able to afford those very things? What makes everyone become so huffy about strippers not having benefits despite their ambiguous career choices yet people are relatively indifferent to the plight of the upper lower class or the lower middle class worker? Aren't they one and the same?

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist I realise this isn't precisely on topic, so if you a mod wants to move this to a new thread, please do. Just to say - it wasn't Nevada, it was California. When strippers take over the club | Reuters "One of the first things the dancers did was to toss out rules about maintaining the same body type as the day they were hired, and ones regarding height-weight proportion. A list of acceptable hair colors was scrapped, along with a policy regulating the quantity and location of tattoos." The only other place where this may be a standard set of rules is perhaps modelling contracts. But even there, the contracts and the industry is heavily regulated. From the Lusty Lady Theatre website: "Things went reasonably smoothly for some time until the summer of 1996 when the company's penchant for hiring intelligent and worldly women began to backfire in the form of a unionization drive. It's a notoriously exploitative game in the adult entertainment world, and it began to be a bit stereotypical, what with the random firings and pay cuts, ambiguous shift policies and other unsavory business. There were even several one-way windows where performers could not see the customer they were dancing for. Subsequently, these windows concealed all sorts of camera and video activity, done without the dancer's consent." Under the conditions cited above, which are quite mild in comparison to how nasty that situation could get, I would argue there's no way for society to view something like the sex industry as a legitimate business. Random firings, pay cuts, ambiguous shift policies, and violation of employee consent is grounds for serious legal action in any other work place - even Wal-Mart. It's only tolerated in this kind of industry because it's women's bodies on show that is for sale. This is enlightenment? So long as people accept businesses treating women like this as the norm, and as long as women accept being treated like this, there is little room to argue that these women are empowered in their chosen work place.

Isn't empowerment about choice?

Rare is the woman who enters a strip club and blindly makes the decision to do the job. Granted, there's a lot of naivete but, ultimately, they have to know to a point what they're getting into.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I'm not concerned with making some kind of compromise, and, I am flattered you would envy my figure, but trust me, finding the clothes that fit reasonably well IS a pain. I'm aware aesthetics change, and that's fine. If/when I ever do undergo that type of surgery, it's not for anyone else other than me. I'm not talking about unnatural sized or shaped balloon style implants. In fact, once (if) the procedure is ever done, only those who knew me prior to the surgery would ever guess that I'd had it done. If it makes me happy, and doesn't hurt anyone else, then really, at the end of the day, it's only my business.

I agree. I actually don't give a damn who gets cosmetic surgery, balloon-sized or mere plums, for whatever reason they get it. None of my business. But if asked for my opinion, I'll give it. When people put themselves on an internet site, asking for money in order to get their tit job, that constitutes entering the public arena of opinion. I think these women are pathetically stupid.

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Originally Posted by Shimmer You don't believe...so it's not right for you. I know many women who have had procedures done, enjoyed the benefits, and moved on with their lives. It was right for them. It doesn't have to be right for you, or anyone else, as long as the patient undergoing the surgery is comfortable with the decision.

True. On the other hand, cosmetic surgery, like anything else, is in the public arena of opinion. People will always have an opinion on it because it's an emotive subject. Some people say, "Keep your opinions to yourself, since it's nothing to do with you." In real life, that's absolutely fair. On the internet though, it's fair to voice an opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer If strippers are going to be afforded those things, and people are going to be up in arms about them not being afforded those things, where is the indignation for the fast food worker whose hours are jacked around so he will never be able to get insurance benefits/401K etc. and if he did it would be out of his price range anyway? Where is the indignation for the blue collar workers who are just out of reach for being able to afford those very things? What makes everyone become so huffy about strippers not having benefits despite their ambiguous career choices yet people are relatively indifferent to the plight of the upper lower class or the lower middle class worker? Aren't they one and the same?

Duuuuude. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool socialist. Join my revolution. I'd provide health care and everything.

 

[j_absinthe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous I don't think that indifference to something should be applauded though. It's one thing to say, yeah everyone is free to make their own choices, and another thing to say, yes, it is indeed their free choice, but to look at it critically and evaluate if this is where we want society and Internet culture to be headed? I think feminism does play a role in this because while feminism empowered women with the freedom to make their own choices, the movement wasn't intended to promote girls chosing to be exploited. Sure, they are getting something out of it as well - the breast implants, but many see that as an exploitation of women's bodies in itself, chosen or not. These women are being exploited to an extent, by the website which makes money off them, even with their own agreement, and while everyone who peruses that site knows what their "role" is so to speak, I still consider this a pretty disgusting form of exploitation of the female body. Now, I am not against nudity or some prude who thinks showing pictures of naked bodies is all deplorable, but this website is taking things to an extreme. You have to ask yourself, why do these women even feel the need to get breast implants in the first place? To feel better about themselves because society dictates what women's bodies should look like? While no one admits to that, this is ultimately the reason why most of these women get implants. If society would just accept women's bodies as they are, we wouldn't have nearly as many of them undergoing surgery every year, with tendency rising.

Consenting adults should be allowed to be adults, even if what they're doing may seem juvenile like putting yourself up on a website to get a new rack, or even deciding to sell themselves on the streets for money. There is empowerment through willing exploitation, and just as these men are exploiting these girls for their sexuality, so to are these women exploiting these men's bank accounts and affections.

 

[flowerhead]

i agree with misschievous...they are whoring themselves out, but people can do what they like. it just shows their lack of integrity and self-respect.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flowerhead i agree with misschievous...they are whoring themselves out, but people can do what they like. it just shows their lack of integrity and self-respect.

And what would you say if someone passed judgment on a gay man?

 

[flowerhead]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer And what would you say if someone passed judgment on a gay man?

is it really comparable?

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flowerhead is it really comparable?

Absolutely. Homosexuality, in many cultures, is a morally ambiguous subject, and obviously a hot button.
You're sitting in judgment on those women, calling them whores, for something that ultimately does no damage to you personally, and yet you would be indignant, angry, and outraged were someone to say that homosexual couples are an abomination against what nature intended (male female for the propagation of the species) and that homosexuals are completely against moral behavior.

 

[flowerhead]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Absolutely. Homosexuality, in many cultures, is a morally ambiguous subject, and obviously a hot button. You're sitting in judgment on those women, calling them whores, for something that ultimately does no damage to you personally, and yet you would be indignant, angry, and outraged were someone to say that homosexual couples are an abomination against what nature intended (male female for the propagation of the species) and that homosexuals are completely against moral behavior.

i didn't call them whores but selling your body is loosely referred to as whoring yourself, unless it's art etc. why would i respect anyone who did that...& on a different note, i'm not looking for anyone's respect, imo being gay isn't any more of an action to be judged as being german, white, latin or hetero...

 

[*Stargazer*]

Jesus Christ. First they're whores, now their intergrity is called into question? The fact that it is the year 2008 and women can't make a decision to show their boobs without being vilified is disturbing. We'll never get ahead as a sex if we continue to degrade each other over choices that hurt no one. We can't argue against men worldwide controlling the sexuality of women when we insult each other over it.



The view must be freaking amazing from up there.


Oh, and why is what these girls are doing any different from a movie star flashing her boobs in a blockbuster movie? She's still doing it for a payday.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flowerhead i didn't call them whores but selling your body is loosely referred to as whoring yourself, unless it's art etc. why would i respect anyone who did that...& on a different note, i'm not looking for anyone's respect, imo being gay isn't any more of an action to be judged as being german, white, latin or bi...

Of course it is.
It's a lifestyle that goes against what is considered culturally and morally 'normal'.

You also said they lacked integrity and self respect.

How can you accurately say that? Are they stealing from these men? Don't these men know exactly what they're getting?

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist When strippers take over the club | Reuters.

Interesting article. Thanks for linking!

 

[flowerhead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Of course it is. It's a lifestyle that goes against what is considered culturally and morally 'normal'. You also said they lacked integrity and self respect. How can you accurately say that? Are they stealing from these men? Don't these men know exactly what they're getting?

no, it's not a lifestyle. it's a preference you're born with.

and the men are just as pathetic.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* Jesus Christ. First they're whores, now their intergrity is called into question? The fact that it is the year 2008 and women can't make a decision to show their boobs without being vilified is disturbing.

That's the nature of the game though.

I was reading up on the feminist literature on sex work today. I've taken excerpts from a recent article,[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif] Barton, B. "Dancing on the Möbius Strip." In Gender & Society, Vol. 16, No. 5, 585-602 (2002). [/FONT] I've highlighted the bits I think are most relevant.

She studied strippers - which I think is a fair analogy to the website in question - for two years and collected data from the dancers. Her conclusions:

Camp 1 - "radical feminists who find any kind of sex work, and often even sexuality itself, inherently and irrevocably exploitative within patriarchy."

Camp 2 - "sex radical feminists who theorize sex work as subversive of patriarchy’s definition of conventional femininity and who strongly support sex workers’ right to perform erotic labor."

"Thus, if we read the literature of radical feminists, we learn that dancers are all victims of sexual and physical abuse whose employment in the sex industry perpetuates patriarchal disdain for women. In contrast, sex radical feminists will insist that dancers are empowered actors in charge of their own destinies, goddesses on raised stages accepting homage (and lucrative tips) from admiring men."

​

She concludes that there's no point in being in either camp because the reality of stripping encompasses both sides of the camp, depending on a number of circumstances, mostly to do with the length of time they've been stripping.

"When women begin dancing, many enjoy it immensely. Those who do not tend to last only a few nights. They bathe in male attention, they display their bodies proudly, they collect quick cash, the lights flash, the music pounds, and they are heady with alcohol, drugs, and a sudden ego boost. Almost every dancer I interviewed confided that in the beginning, she loved dancing. Other researchers (Bell and Sloan 1998; Forsyth 1998; Johnson 1998; Sweet and Tewksbury 2000) have noted a similar pattern. More than one woman expressed that it was delightful to be paid for partying, listening to a great stereo, and receiving compliments from hordes of men.

Unfortunately, this ego gratification is precarious. In the world of the strip bar, the dancer’s pride and pleasure in her self-display is just one nasty comment away from the sting of rejection on one hand and the humiliation of being treated like a piece of cheap meat on the other. A dancer may feel as if she is queen of the universe when a man tips her $100 for her conversation. The next potential customer, however, may make a nasty comment about the size of her breasts, or stick his tongue down her throat before she has a chance to push him away. On the other end of the spectrum, she may get no attention whatsoever, a rejection that wounds dancers both financially and emotionally."

​

Further on down the article...

"Depending on when you question a dancer about her feelings about her career—when she begins or later in her career—you are likely to get a different self-assessment of her power or oppression, as what dancers initially experience as pleasurable becomes increasingly fraught with problems. That power (or lack of it) is, however, neither as seamless nor as static as partisans in the sex wars portray it. ... Thus, the longer a woman strips, the more her feelings about her labor reflect the validity of the radical feminist perspective. But few women whom I interviewed were in it for the money alone. Most enjoyed the sexual abandon and ego gratification as well—the experience of erotic power emphasized by sex radical feminists.

That gratification, however, is a precarious and transient thing—a lack of stability I have attempted to illustrate in this article by analogy with the Möbius strip—as dancers learn that the positive effect of compliments such as, “You have the most beautiful body I have ever seen,” might the next instant be countered with, “You dirty slut.” At first, the pleasure of the affirming moments and the euphoria of having money seem to provide something of a shield against internalizing rude comments, abuse, and the stigma of being a stripper.
​

But ultimately, for most of my informants, what was once a largely affirming environment became increasingly degrading and exhausting. The longer any woman danced, the less likely money appeared to be an adequate compensation for her. Several women I interviewed who described these processes found fewer and fewer of their needs satisfied by dancing and quit sex work at this point. More women would quit if they had the financial resources to do so. Thus, one of my major findings is that over time, women move from feeling empowered to feeling oppressed."
​

She concludes:

"Structurally, dancing is exploitative and destructive to women both as individuals and as a group—supporting a radical feminist analysis. Rather than enhancing their sexual confidence, or even teaching them to develop stronger defense mechanisms against the internalization of abuse,... working in strip clubs ultimately makes dancers feel worse about their bodies, their sexuality, their intelligence, and finally, their overall identity in the social world. Yet as the sex radicals articulate, individual women can experience dancing as liberating and rewarding, at least for a while."
​

I think if everyone can agree that both sides exist, then it's not that hard to understand why society has never accepted the use of women's bodies in this way as an acceptable thing. It's *not* simple. It's complicated. And ultimately, from the very mouths of the women who do this, it tends to be a negative experience for the women. The only ones really enjoying themselves at the end of the day - full of power - are the men for whom this 'entertainment' is created.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by flowerhead no, it's not a lifestyle. it's a preference you're born with. and the men are just as pathetic.

That's not entirely proven. There are those who argue that it's a lifestyle choice.

That's certainly your opinion, but already, your back is up at the idea that someone may be sitting in judgment on gay men everywhere.