illegal immigration.

[Hawkeye]

Having actually been to a 3rd world country let me tell you exactly how easy it is to cross a boarder illegally. You walk a couple of miles away from the guard stand and you keep walking until you reach the desired country. In our case there was a fence. We climbed it and spent the rest of the day in Mozambique. Then when we decided to go back to Zimbabwae we went a different way in, and we climbed a fence and voila back in Zimbabwe.

Now in America and in Mexico-it is quite easy to cross a boarder. You first swim across a river and then you get to an area that may or may not have a fence and if it does not have a fence you walk across and the boarder guard only comes by every 15-30 minutes or so.

it is very easy to walk into another country.

Legal immigration is a long process but if you are so lazy you cannot do the legal immigration then you should not try to immigrate. Notice I said the word lazy-I ment it. If somebody wants to immigrate to America and do a simple but rather long process and become an American Citizen I welcome them with open arms. If they choose not to-then they are lazy (for not wanting to learn and if they do then they are) and Impatient.

Now I was listening to something today and I just thought of something. Identity theft. A lot of illigal immigrants come in and get jobs. You can skirt the issue of being legal if you have a Social Security Card. Because America is very lax about illigal immigration. But with a social security card-the business just have to make sure your name matches up with the Social Security Number.

You can only get a social security number if you are a US Citizen. Correct?

Then tell me, how is it that suddenly you have some illigal aliens with a social security card and a number that identifies them?

I.D. Theft.

Raerae-You are not the only one baffled by the have a child in the US process.

NOW Here are some articles by Hermain Cain I LOVE THIS MAN.

Here are some articles pertaining to this discussion that EVERYONE should read.
Illigal Entitlement is not an option:
http://hermancain.com/news/press-opinion-041906.asp
No Correlation: Civil Rights and Illegal Rights
http://hermancain.com/news/press-opinion-040406.asp
A letter from a slave to an illegal alien
http://hermancain.com/news/press-opinion-051006.asp
One Culture Indivisable
http://hermancain.com/news/press-opinion-071206.asp
Illegal Dirty Little Secrets about Social Security
http://hermancain.com/news/press-opinion-071906.asp
This last one is the one that I heard about on the radio. Absolutely fascinating.


I encourage you all to read his articles regarding this. I heard him at the fair tax ralley and this man is absolutely amazing.

 

[caffn8me]

Here in the UK we have quite a problem with illegal immigration. I have no problems with genuine asylum seekers but many arrive here simply because they know the UK will feed and house them and they don't need to lift a finger. The government has lost control of the problem and isn't deporting those who come here to take advantage of our free healthcare and other services.

We have a problem with legal immigration too. The government estimated that with the expansion of the European Union to include countries like Poland, we would see about 13,000 immigrants from Eastern Europe every year. Figures show that we actually get over 1,000 every single day through just one of many points of entry - Victroria Coach station. Details here. Many of those who arrive do actually find productive work but many just come to abuse our welfare system.

 

[Raerae]

Realistically the problem is human breeding more than anything... This is a problem thats only going to get worse as the global population grows and grows. Immigration is only starting to become a major problem as global populations continues to march forward at an alarming rate.

As long as people all over the world decide to have litters of children, the space for those families is going to get smaller and smaller. And as areas get saturated with population, the need to spread out to find work, food, whatever, is going to grow and grow.

Immigration wasn't such a hot topic 50 years ago because we only had 2 billion people on the planet... Were over 6 Billion now, so even if the same % of people are immigrating as 50 years ago, the number of people had gone up by a huge amount. Wait another 50 years when we have over 10 billion people. You think it's bad now? lol...

 

[Hawkeye]

Yeah that's true-and I almost wonder if famine, disease, natural deadly disasters is just natures way of population control?

Not a pretty thought but it is a thought none the less.

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch Yeah that's true-and I almost wonder if famine, disease, natural deadly disasters is just natures way of population control? Not a pretty thought but it is a thought none the less.

i think it is. but we've screwed it up with modern medicine fixing every single thing hatgoes wrong, so the population is growing faster than nature can handle which causese thins like famine.

 

[quandolak]

*LONG POST ABOUT UK IMMIGRATION TRENDS NOT AMERICAN ONES*



Caffn8me Australian and Americans in the uk are the biggest illegals in the uk strangley they dont get any bad press from it whatsoever. I suppose you dont have any issues about them being there do you!

Immigration issues in the uk are always linked to certain races even though the *acceptable* countries are the worst offenders. Im thinking my adoptive aussie mother here who spent years in the uk bludging off the state (even allowed to on a expired visa)only to be greeted with welcome arms when she finally wanted to be legal again so she could go home...nothings changed aussies still get a pat on the back even if they have defrauded the goverment the odd several thousand.


I wrote a long reply origianly to the topic about european immigration issues. But decided to erase it cos the topic has mainly focused on immigration to america.

Quote'' Here in the UK we have quite a problem with illegal immigration. I have no problems with genuine asylum seekers but many arrive here simply because they know the UK will feed and house them and they don't need to lift a finger. The government has lost control of the problem and isn't deporting those who come here to take advantage of our free healthcare and other services.
''


You see if this was actual fact that would be a problem. But as someone who has actually worked directly with asylum seekers via a charity i know that this is all tabloid fodder.

The majority dont get fed and housed although thats the general impression given by even braodsheet newspapers. The large majority of cases i saw were homeless or were given somewhere to stay by local british asian families. Only a few got given *food vouchers*. Do you seriously think someone who has worked everyday of the year back in afghanistan,iraq or somalia for example only to earn less than a hundred pounds a year after working every day is somehow being lazy and on a gravy train?


Can you please explain why it is that all these supposed fake asylum seekers come from nearly exlusivly 10 countries (97% of asylum seekers from only countries in dire need). Do you somehow think they are all sitting there in the middle of war thinking oh goodie im gonna live the high life in the uk...

There are 16,000 asylum claims a year and of british people migrating to other countries is eight times that ammount. Britian has a low birth rate and has hundreds of thousands of vacant jobs that need filling . Some of these jobs are *below* the thousands on job seekers allowance so most of these jobs are done by immigrants whether legally or not. Consider the fact that the free housing and benefits is a myth as less than 3% get any and these people need somewhere to stay and the employers desperatly need staff you can see why both sides reason that asylum seekers should be allowed to work when the natives downright refuse to lower themselves to cleaning toilets or taking other crappy jobs.

Have you ever seen a white person working as a cleaner or a maid in london,manchester or birmingham..ever??


My friend works in the job centre and he finds it impossoble to convince hundred of people that come there each week that are on jobs seekers allowance to take any of these jobs. Yet these are the same people that will whinge that the immigrants are taking jobs and are crowding the country. How predictable.


As for NHS abusers strangley enough again those found to be abusing the system for free have been citizens of western countries and not those from the third world.

Back to that gravy train of the FEW asylum seekers that get benefits in the uk . The highest ammount for them to possibly get is £38.80. Heck they are living the high life on that arent they. Poor you ..you might have to work and extra 2 seconds to pay that off. Considering that the annual tax spent on asylum seekers per person in the uk is less than £2 per year i dont think that your being shortchanged. However the ammount of taxpayers money spent on military expenses is in the hundreds per person i think maybe its time to worry about that more.


So the majority of immigrants are from *white western countries* . They are also the biggest group to rip off the taxpayer with fraud . But your worried not about them but about asylum seekers that arent getting all this money you claim they get. That are still working seven days a week in jobs where no one else will work. And that keep the economy afloat. They bring in more money than is spent on them. They get lies told about them by the media .

They are escaping war and persecution. For the majority they didnt get to choose where their final country of asylum would be. And apparently ass this is a problem WTF.

As for the government not deporting them . I suppose because its not reported in the sun you dont realise that several 747's a week take people back to afghanistan,sudan,somalia,iraq etc. I knew on guy who was a genuine asylum seeker from Afghanistan and a 4 in the morning the came and arrested him and took him to manchester airport and put him in a plane and sent him home. He was dead within a week of being home as he was hazara .Apparently the home office thinks that having internal injuries after years of torture and scars on the outside too does not mean that your a genuine asylum seeker in need despite several doctors coming to the conclusion that it did.

So what was that about the goverment not doing anything to send home those in need??..


So next time you make more predictably daft staments can you please tell me how you actually KNOW that the goverment doesnt send home these people and can you show me that asylum seekers are on a gravy train or those that you think are taking advantage of £38.80.

Or maybe they are going mad with the food vouchers that the lucky few get. Luckily the *food vouchers* allow you to get sausages and other haram product which is helpful considering the majority of asylum seekers in the uk are from muslim countries.

Damn wont they have nice sausages when they are living it up with the tax payer funded homelessness.

Quote''
Many of those who arrive do actually find productive work but many just come to abuse our welfare system.
Quote''

Polish Oh do they. Consider you cant apply for benefits if you have not worked a whole year of fulltime work in the uk and consider the tiny percentage of those who actually make claims. Again you statments are baseless. How many abuse the system btw im fascinated with these vague claims. I suppose that the £36.7 billion that asylum seekers have generated in the last 5 years that have benefited the uk economy is again used as proof that they are all on the gravy train...ERRRrrr


Im mentioning asylum seekers as that what you wrote. And asylum seekers arent illegal immigrants as the press likes to call them as you are only and illegal immigrant if you dont make yourself known to authorities. Therefore illegal immigrants CANT make claims for benefits in either America or the uk.

Its sad to see that in this day and age that myths and not fact is reason enough for people to hold these views on asylum seekers. And when people dont take into account that britans population is set to be 10 million less by 2040 yet over half the country by then retired you have to think what are their priorities.

When over three quarters of uk bound immigrants of all kinds are born in either america,australia or germany and also being the largest group to defraud its logical to come to the conflusion that your concern over the gravy train is either racial or stems from self imposed ignorance.

In scotland 17,000 jobs are unfilled becuase people find them *unpleasant* yet these same people wont leave their jobs benefit and your worried about asylum seekers. For example fish filliters in scotland can earn £500 a week which is over double the minimum wage yet only asylum seekers and immigrants from no western countries will take the jobs. The truth is they are in many cases the only reliable workers and without them many vital industries would collapse.

I really hope that asylum seekers dont cause you any more worries. Maybe you would like to turn your attentions to the ridiculously large job seekers allowance abuse (despite there beoing thousands of available jobs for even unskilled and skilled workers in the uk) or your tax pounds that are funding the bombing of these peoples countries next time you feel like being a victim being milked for your tax money.





p.s Im not attacking you but i am truely sick and tired of hearing abolute bs about asylum seekers as they have to go through alot to even get that *status* and its tiring hearing what they supposedly live like despite knowing otherwise.

Also sorry about the random order of my post...

 

[Kiseki]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Kiseki how is 4.1% immigrant ( of that 99% are legal)population somehow *flooding* your country considering a larger ammount of portugues citizens themselves leave the country annualy than immigrants arrive!!

99% are legal because there have been more than one government iniciatives to mass-legalize the immigration work force, and the numbers aren't real, anyone living here has that notion. Don't believe everything you read. The legalization has increased though.

Have you seem our unemployment rates? Do you think we offer any working conditions to people that are looking for a better life? I honestly think we don't.

Many Brazilians live in one and two bedroom apartments in groups of almost twenty people lacking the minimum conditions to live.

When I meant flooding, it wasn't in the sense of invading, I'm talking about it in retrospect, since it's an fairly recent phenomenon for us, begining in the late nineties I would say.

Yes, many leave the country and immigrate and some do it illegally, and I don't think it is correct, nor did I mention that people don't leave the country.

What worries me most are companies that take advantage of the illegal immigration, I used to work for an asshole who would pay around 150 € less to Brazilian workers compared to Portuguese ones and they would subject to this, which I think is wrong, they will work more hours for less pay. That is what I find degrading and wrong.

I clearly think that I didn't explain what I didn't explain myself properly and you might have a bad idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Have you ever seen a white person working as a cleaner or a maid in london,manchester or birmingham..ever??

Funny you should mention this, it was one of the first things I noticed when I went to London on vacation for the first time, 14 years ago.

At least you agree with me that the immigrant work force usually takes on the jobs that either Portuguese, British, French or American (to name a few) don't want.

 

[quandolak]

Portuguese unemployment rates run at 7.7% ..

Yes they live in shit heaps..


As long as the *natives* of the country refuse to take the demeaning jobs dodgy employers will continue to mistreat immigrants . Also alot of this mistreatment is due to peoples belief in myths about benefits etc.

And those Brasilians are living a bad life compared to portuguese standards of course they then get abuse on top of it but even with abuse its better than in a favela. Even twenty to a room. Ive seen the same thing with afghans/iraqis in the uk where they sleep on the floor .




*back to the uk issue*
Thing is for many afghans they dont have birth certificates as the majority of afghan citizens never have one. They dont have passports and cant get them due to war and a inneficiant government. They cant get visas and as nearly all afghans only make a hundred pounds a year if lucky they will never be able to afford one.



Btw for those who go ohh but the sun newspaper said that they pay twenty thousands pounds to get here. Ermm wtf how?!

What the sun doesnt let on is that afghans for a start dont have that kind of money and that twenty thousand is what the traffickers worked those asylum seekers for. They get sent from country to country not knowing where they will end up. And it takes years sometimes. They get forced to work until the smugglers get enough money and they are moved to a new country and more work. The asylum seekers of course get none of this money. Then they get to say the uk and the are threatened still that they have to reguraly give more money to traffickers or else blood will be spilt.




Anyway on the brasilians its easy to pass judgment but if you were in their place im sure you would do the same. Portugal sent thousands there and now the opposite is happening. Life ebbs and flows.



We have the luxury of being spectators and as far as i can see none of you have ever fled anything. Its true you dont have to have experienced something to have a view on it. But sometimes the reasons these people are immigrating have passed you by. It is the REASONS for immigrating that usually holds these people back from getting legal documentation. Corrupt goverments war etc. Some countries dont even issue visas or passports as they are in such a mess.

 

[MAC_Whore]

As said before, illegal immigration is just that: illlegal. A lot of immigrants say that they are looking for a better life. Sure, that is noble and would surely induce sympathy from a lot of people.

Well, what if I am in a pinch and steal to feed my family? That is noble and would surely inspire sympathy from a lot of people, but it is still stealing and illegal. Laws are in place for a reason. To keep from a total breakdown in our society. We can't pick and choose which laws we would like to adhere to, that is how our system works.

Sure you can argue that these folks are just in need of a better life, but they can do it legally. If, as someone said, that it is too difficult for many to obtain legally, then they should look within their own borders for change. America is not here to be a quick fix.

I feel our borders should be airtight. Mainly for security. We live in a time when things have changed for the US. There are a bunch of extremist assholes out there trying to threaten our way of life and lose borders gives them a free pass in.

Aside from the security, there is the drain on resources. God, I pay so much in taxes. I hate it, but I understand it is a necessary action. The fact that so many aren't contributing to a system that is providing to them, just rubs me the wrong way. As someone mentioned, the population is exploding. We need to focus on the growing pains within our borders and that takes money. It takes everyone contributing to the system.

People argue that illegal immigrants do all of the jobs that americans won't do and if all illegal immigrants were deported that america would be in a pinch. That is a crap arguement. First of all, there will never be a mass round up of illegal immigrants, so there will never be millions of people suddenly disappearing from our work force. Second, americans will do those jobs. Americans will do and have always done what is necessary to keep this country going.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel sympathy for the plight of immigrants attempting to find a better life, however, I get this feeling like people often look to America to be the world's bandage. We have the numbers, the money so we should shoulder it and if we don't, we are being cold or un-PC or arrogant. Wrong. America offers many opportunities and freedoms, but we do have an obligation to protect that way of life. It is not arrogant, it is called survival.

Bottom line, it is illegal.

 

[quandolak]

So if you were in a thrid world country and had a choice of starving and were surrounded by war and the only way out would be to *illegaly* leave you wouldnt...?!!....of course you wouldnt cos you wouldnt sink to such *lows *..right??

 

[Kiseki]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Anyway on the brasilians its easy to pass judgment but if you were in their place im sure you would do the same. Portugal sent thousands there and now the opposite is happening. Life ebbs and flows.

I'm not passing judgement, you misunderstood me completely.

Portugal has sent hundreds of thousands everywhere. So you said in an earlier post. And I completely agree with your point about life, history (such as natures) ebbing and flowing.

Don't assume from someone's posts that you don't know if he or she has fled something, being poverty or whatever. That would assuming, and usually assumption leads to disastrous consequences, someone might be offended by it. I never said I was unaware of the living conditions of immigrants nor did I say I don't think that in many cases, it's a matter of survival, of offering a fair chance at having a better life.

My only point is that the destination countries should have better infrastructures while dealing with immigration, either by making the bureaucracy far simpler and truly giving them a fair chance, because illegal immigration is not going to disappear just because people would like to and they're not going to deport them all magically away.

Being that more than a few of the people comenting on this topic are American, they are seeing things from their perspective, from how the media presents the information and how they deal with it every day. No matter how you try to present your point of view, don't expect people to magically change their view, it's just not going to happen.

You have presented many valid points, it's up to everyone who reads them to take it upon consideration (or not) and maybe think otherwise. But if they don't, they just don't.

Honestly (as I predicted even before I made the first reply), this topic will be going nowhere, because it's a case of perspective.

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak ....of course you wouldnt cos you wouldnt sink to such *lows *..right??

There is a better, less abrasive way to say this to me.

I can't say what I would do personally, as I have not been in that situation. I am extremely thankful for that. I do have sympathy, but there needs to be a balance.

I don't disagree that there are often extreme circumstances, such as war and famine. Sure, in that situation, I may try to do whatever it takes to survive, but the laws to control immigration still need to be there. It cannot be a free for all.

In extreme circumstances, such as war or famine, there is a place for world food aid programs, U.N. programs and programs allowing immigrants to enter the US on asylum. Those are the methods for providing aid in that situation.

Just letting someone into our borders doesn't change the fact that they don't have shelter, food, medical attention or a job. If we let every single person into the US that needs help, the US would collapse. There needs to be a way to account for those coming into our system and pay for the help that they need. It is just common sense and numbers; there is only so much we can shoulder.

Who shoulders that expense? Taxpayers. I, as a tax payer, as well as someone who contributes to charity programs, have a say in the matter. This my opinion. One of many opinions that make up the laws of my country. We, as a country should not feel bad about protecting our way of life.

 

[Shimmer]

Quandolak, it's not that anyone derides illegals or refugees for leaving their area of origin, but at the same time how would you like it if I told you you HAVE to feed my family.
YOU have to put a roof over our head.
YOU have to clothe us.
YOU have to provide us with medical care.
YOU have to provide us with education, in OUR native language thank you very much, while honoring OUR traditions, regardless of whether doing so stomps on yours or not.
YOU have to honor OUR religions, OUR home country's holidays, and honor OUR flag.
YOU have to do this because WE just moved into YOUR house whether YOU like it or not because well, it kinda sucks on our side of the street, and you've got such a big house, so...here we are...THANKS!

THAT is what illegal immigrants do to the nations they move into.

 

[Janice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore People argue that illegal immigrants do all of the jobs that americans won't do and if all illegal immigrants were deported that america would be in a pinch. That is a crap arguement. First of all, there will never be a mass round up of illegal immigrants, so there will never be millions of people suddenly disappearing from our work force. Second, americans will do those jobs. Americans will do and have always done what is necessary to keep this country going.

Amen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiseki Honestly (as I predicted even before I made the first reply), this topic will be going nowhere, because it's a case of perspective.

That's not going to happen anymore hopefully. We have to learn that these topics aren't for endless antagonistic debate, but sharing & intelligently debating our own developed perspectives. I'm not going to allow members to browbeat other members who don't agree with their views on a subject. The mods have been instructed on this.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janice Amen. That's not going to happen anymore hopefully. We have to learn that these topics aren't for endless antagonistic debate, but sharing & intelligently debating our own developed perspectives. I'm not going to allow members to browbeat other members who don't agree with their views on a subject. The mods have been instructed on this.

Definitely.
I want to keep the subjects open for discussion and rational debate without making anyone feel as though they're being pummelled from all sides by another member. We're here to discuss not to attack, after all!

 

[quandolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Quandolak, it's not that anyone derides illegals or refugees for leaving their area of origin, but at the same time how would you like it if I told you you HAVE to feed my family. YOU have to put a roof over our head. YOU have to clothe us. YOU have to provide us with medical care. YOU have to provide us with education, in OUR native language thank you very much, while honoring OUR traditions, regardless of whether doing so stomps on yours or not. YOU have to honor OUR religions, OUR home country's holidays, and honor OUR flag. YOU have to do this because WE just moved into YOUR house whether YOU like it or not because well, it kinda sucks on our side of the street, and you've got such a big house, so...here we are...THANKS! THAT is what illegal immigrants do to the nations they move into.

Do they?


The majority actually end up working and in many cases 7 days a week . And with the language issue..Why are you so scared of diversity. For you it seems to be some sort of a threat.

Like i said before the ammount the american and british taxpayer a year pays for these sort of things (that most immigrants btw dont get as its scraremongering and very rarely reality) is less than a cost of a chocolate bar.


You would be whinging no end if they all left as your economy DOES rely on them. America was built on the terror and savage killing of the natives and then modern america built with the help of waves of IMMIGRANTS. Why is it that your ancestors were worthy of migrating and these people are not. They after all are coming from areas that are worse than europe was hundreds of years ago. The first european immigrants built on the land of the indians and did truely enforce their views on them. Thats not what is happening now though. And yes i know shimmer that you are part native american part irish.

I think your all petrified that they are going to do to you what you did to the origional occupants.


And as for some of you saying they have to shoulder the burden. What a joke you would have hard times if it was not for the work of these people you so adore to put down. You may not belive that is reality.
It wasnt so long ago many of these people were being forced about as slaves. I kind of think that ungrateful mentality remains with many who see themselves as the only rightful americans.

 

[Shimmer]

IMMIGRANTS we don't have anything against.
DIVERSITY we don't have anything against.

We have something against people who come into our house and leech our resources and work our systems without doing it LEGALLY.

I don't understand why people can't understand that it's not IMMIGRATION people have a problem with. It's ILLEGAL immigration we have a problem with.
Generally speaking, when an immigrant works his/her way through the system and becomes a citizen of the United States of America, s/he is a truly genuine contributing member of society.
By being here illegally, these people are breaking the law, the SAME as if they were driving drunk, selling drugs, stealing electronics, or embezzling.
It's STILL breaking the law.
It's STILL leeching a system because the system is flawed in regard to preventing the loopholes from being exploited.

 

[quandolak]

The point was that they dont have a choice about being legal or not. They are only doing it out of desperation.

It may be breaking the law but in some cases its a catch 22.

 

[Shimmer]

They most assuredly do have a choice.
Work to make a difference in their own country.
I'm sorry that sounds harsh but it's not our responsibility to take care of the rest of the world. Help, yes. Take care of? No.

Yes, the fact that there are poor people in Mexico sucks. Same for the people in the Congo and in Darfur and in Africa who are in the tribes who can't seem to figure out how to value life. That is truly tragic and such a truly sad situation.
But it's not incumbent upon the US to allow people into the borders without thought for the strain that it places on OUR economy.

It's incumbent upon the leaders of those countries to take care of their own people.

 

[quandolak]

Its benefits your economy. Thats not a strain.

Your implying that they have made no effort whatsoever to help their country.

But when foreign goverments are pumping in money to help those who oppress those who have fled.......eg america funding the taliban then switiching to funding the norhten alliance who are just as equal bastards.


Do you serioulsy think that they just lie back and make no effort.
Do you not realise that working everyday of their lives is not a choice but what they are stuck with. Then to say that they arent working to help their country is a big arrogant.

If poeple have certain political views say in iraq then they are gonna be killed. So they flee. Its not a case of not wanting to help. Its that they cant in that situation when there are so many factors working against them even if they are working for a good cause.

Then people tell them off for *making * themselves political prisoners or political refugees.

So if you try to make change you dont always as hard as you try get it. Especially when other countries are butting in and not helping situations. This goes for the whole world africa,south america wherever.

Anyway if you attempt to work hard to get the country in a better situation there is a large chance at failing and then you get told off for not doing enough and are made a political refugee. So then they get to america and are put down by critics saying they do nothing and put themselves in that situation.


Shimmer i swear ill pay you to go to a third world country and see that the luxury of being able to choose to be *legal* is not a choice they are given if you fail to belive that they are not everyones responsability as your and my life is only so cushy due to the way our goverments have a grip over their countries . Your assuming that they have all the freedom of choice that you do.