illegal immigration.

[quandolak]

QUOTE' '
At some point, you have to look at that time in history and know that sadly, it was the cause of many deaths and sadly, it was a massive blow to the Native American Indian culture. Understand the depth of that.

Quote''



Err how naive. I have enough knowladge about native americans . The same think has happened to south american indians of which i am ethnically half south american indian.


Im not making generalisations about you. Im making remarks at those comments you have posted that have that superior air to them. Its not anti american. That mindset is very common here and in the uk too.


As you said your family worked up from nothing. But where were they from ...europe??...

That was my point before. You CAN get somewhere if you work your ass of in Eurpoe , America, australia etc. But you can work every day of your whole life in other countries and get nowhere. Thats where your superiority came in. You have it in your head that since your family worked hard to get to america that *obviously* others arent working that hard. You for some reason think it is possible for everyone that works hard and thats a total fairytale. Those that can work hard and get there are a blessed few. That doesnt make them any better because being *legal* was something they could work for and something that is forever out of others reach.

So anyone who wants to come to america...or more precicely(sp) NEEDS to and its their last resort cant always get their legally.
You think that all these people choose not to be law abiding. Its been shown many times that when people CAN get legal documentation and that its in their reach ..they take that route.

For most *illegals* documentation is not obtainable in any way.

Thats what gets me. You cant get your head around it. Like you said your family *chose* to come legally. Lucky them. That they had a choice. I mentioned this earlier you assume that everyone has a choice and that if they dont take these non existant choices they arent loyal to america. Its all so backward.


Also why do you keep IGNORING the fact that they bring more to the economy than take from it?!! You spend $2 a year of taxes on them and you whinge over that. And want their countries to *pay* for the imaginary damage they do to the amerian economy. Like i said the american economy would collapse if they all left. You keepo saying they harm it yet financialy there is not proof to back that up.


Quote* Should all of the people that have broken the law by illegally immigrating to the US or the UK or anywhere else just be forgiven? I am talking about all illegal immigrants here, not just the ones who are in dire straigths. .[/quote]



The ones in dire straights are the illegal ones lots of the time. Or that is what they get called. The correct term is asylum seeker. But if you havent bothered to read my 2nd post then i advice go and read it again.

How am i meant to reason with you type of thinking when many countries DO NOT HAVE ANY CURRENT GOVERMENT DEPARTMENTS OFFERING PASSPORTS OR VISAS! Those countries have war and there is no way for the average citizen to do anything about it so they have no choice but to leave.

I feel no desire to make these people feel like they have done anything wrong or ask for them to repent.


Back to *illgeal immigrants* and not asylum seekers being forgiven. They dont even get asked to be sorry for it. The largest illegal visa and overtstayer offender group in the uk is AUSTRALIANS AND AMERICANS they never get made to pay for it. Thats why this is so often a racial issue.

As in america the largest offender group in regards to this subject are from the UK and AUSTRALIA and CANADA NOT from mexico or other countries.



If you care so much about all these offenders WHY are you talking obviously about particular countries and not the actual highest offending countries where people have a choice.

Please answer this question and dont ignore it ..id really like to know what spurs you on to care so *selectivly* about only a tiny proportion of immigrants and not the majority of which you dont pass any judgement on.

 

[quandolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE ANTHEM second, if they don't learn our language, how will we communicate with our neighbors? oh...i forgot, we won't be able to. then where would we be? so, what, do you expect every person in every country to know every single world language?

When did i say they didnt have to learn english at some point . Your going off on every possible doosday situation you can cling on to.

But if people expect someone in the middle of civil war or dire poverty to find the money for english classes...in the middle of WAR then they are totally dilussional.


As always people read what i wrote. I wasnt saying that americans (cos we have obviously moved soley onto american immigration here)would have to stretch their minds and learn other languages that would be far fetched after all. I was saying that how can you expect people to arrive already talking your language even though they were not in a situation to learn it in the first place.

98% of non english speaking immigrants start english classes in the first year anyway. So why dont you quit with the scare mongering about every possible situation.

.................................................. .............................................
Just a thought here...


Being a criminal is when you have a choice and choose not to take the legal route.

These people dont have any choice and thats not their fault.


WHAT DO YOU NOT GET ABOUT THAT!

 

[quandolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore we absolve so much foreign debt.

Proof?

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak When did i say they didnt have to learn english at some point . Your going off on every possible doosday situation you can cling on to. But if you expect someone in the middle of civil war or dire poverty to find the money for english classes...in the middle of WAR then you are totally dilussional. As always you didnt read what i wrote. I wasnt saying that you would have to stretch your mind and learn other languages that would be far fetched after all. I was saying that you expect people to arrive already talk your language even though they were not in a situation to learn it in the first place. 98% of non english speaking immigrants start english classes in the first year anyway. So why dont you quit with the scare mongering about every possible situation. .................................................. ............................................. Being a criminal is when you have a choice and choose not to take the legal route. These people dont have any choice and thats not their fault. WHAT DO YOU NOT GET ABOUT THAT!

thanks for the personal attacks honey, very mature. don't get so worked up, we're all adults here. i'm not saying anything against you, i'm just trying to shed light on the current situation in the United States, which is apparently very different from the situation in your country.

at any rate, if we allow them to come into our country, we will still need everything printed in multiple languages. even if they all learn English at some point, there will be a constant flow of immigrants who can't speak the language, so we'll still have to print eveything in other languages continuously.

in America (granted, this may be very different in your country) many of these immigrants refuse to learn English, because as Shimmer has already said, they feel that we should cater to them and their culture/language.

oh, and that 98% stat must be one from your country, because i garuntee you that there is nowhere near 98% of illegal immigrants here learning our language within their first year.

 

[quandolak]

I was not talking about you ..i was talking about people in general..maybe i should have rephrased that..



..update ok i went and changed the you's and i was not talking about YOU in particular.

 

[Shimmer]

I REALLY want see to the creditable documentation proving that only $2 every year is spent out of my tax dollars every year on illegal immigrants.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Quote:

in America (granted, this may be very different in your country) many of these immigrants refuse to learn English, because as Shimmer has already said, they feel that we should cater to them and their culture/language.

ITA from the kids in my school. They had to take ESL classes, and they fought like hell not to learn the language. These are all races, too, BTW.

Years later, when they were able to take the English-speaking classes with us and had a good command of the English language, they still thought it was ridiculous that they had to use English.

 

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak As you said your family worked up from nothing. But where were they from ...europe??... That was my point before. You CAN get somewhere if you work your ass of in Eurpoe , America, australia etc. But you can work every day of your whole life in other countries and get nowhere. Thats where your superiority came in. You have it in your head that since your family worked hard to get to america that *obviously* others arent working that hard. You for some reason think it is possible for everyone that works hard and thats a total fairytale. Those that can work hard and get there are a blessed few. That doesnt make them any better because being *legal* was something they could work for and something that is forever out of others reach. So anyone who wants to come to america...or more precicely(sp) NEEDS to and its their last resort cant always get their legally. You think that all these people choose not to be law abiding. Its been shown many times that when people CAN get legal documentation and that its in their reach ..they take that route. For most *illegals* documentation is not obtainable in any way. Thats what gets me. You cant get your head around it. Like you said your family *chose* to come legally. Lucky them. That they had a choice. I mentioned this earlier you assume that everyone has a choice and that if they dont take these non existant choices they arent loyal to america. Its all so backward.

And here's the problem: it's that lack of documentation that *make* them illegal. If they can't get the appropriate documentation, there are ways around that, as in any extreme situation. The rules regarding citizenship are NOT as black-and-white as they may seem, but that's true for every country. There are always exceptions for extreme cases.

Most of our families came here legally, yes, but also remember that it was a different system back then. I know, personally, my family came here in the '20s, through Ellis Island. They had to jump through hoops to get here and get their citizenship, then were denied jobs, had to live in substandard housing, etc. Now, if they could've done it, why can't those who want to come here now? I think it's a huge slap in the face to all of those who have come here legally when we even suggest to just let illegals come in because they supposedly "benefit the economy."

But I think there are undertones here that suggest that these people are somehow *entitled* to come to America. To be blunt, they aren't entitled to a thing. Our rights and our Constitution is meant for Americans- those who already have citizenship. It is FULLY within our rights to pick and choose who we want here and who we deny citizenship. It is a privilege to be an American citizen, it is NOT an undeniable right. I think once people start to discern that is when we'll see some real progress regarding this issue.

Edited to add: You've also got to look at problems that are more than just economical. How about the fact that so many illegals are using American social security numbers to gain jobs- that right there is identity theft. If you suggest that we should overlook the fact that they came here illegally, do you think that we should turn a blind eye to the fact that they are stealing our identities and personal information?

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak ...Err how naive. I have enough knowladge about native americans.....

You left out the part of my response....
Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore ........What we do now, is we work to understand each other. Appreciate our diversity. There has to be a point when you let things go. There are terrible things and unfair things that have happended in history and understand that I am not belittling anything, but at some point, you have to move on. Learn the lessons so that it does not repeat itself, but move on. If not, this thread will turn into an arguement about your clan taking over land that belonged to my tribe in Roman times and we will get no where......

How long should one pay for the sins of their fathers?

Below is what you said to start this topic. I have spoken to it and don't want to further attempt to correct you in that your assumptions about me being "petrified" of other cultures are wrong, but you have already made up your mind about me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak ...I think your all petrified that they are going to do to you what you did to the origional occupants.....

For the record, I didn't do any of that.
__________________________
Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak .... You have it in your head that since your family worked hard to get to america that *obviously* others arent working that hard. You for some reason think it is possible for everyone that works hard and thats a total fairytale.....

You have no idea what I am thinking. As I have asked before, do not make assumptions about me. I completely realize that for some it is incredibly difficult to immigrate to another country. That is a very basic, understandable concept.

I understand that there are many who want to immigrate to the US, but the reality is that we cannot let everyone into our borders. It is unfortunate that other countries are in a bad way and their nationals don't wan't to stay. As I have said....

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore ... but there needs to be a balance. I don't disagree that there are often extreme circumstances, such as war and famine. Sure, in that situation, I may try to do whatever it takes to survive, but the laws to control immigration still need to be there. It cannot be a free for all. In extreme circumstances, such as war or famine, there is a place for world food aid programs, U.N. programs and programs allowing immigrants to enter the US on asylum. Those are the methods for providing aid in that situation. Just letting someone into our borders doesn't change the fact that they don't have shelter, food, medical attention or a job. If we let every single person into the US that needs help, the US would collapse. There needs to be a way to account for those coming into our system and pay for the help that they need. It is just common sense and numbers; there is only so much we can shoulder. Who shoulders that expense? Taxpayers. I, as a tax payer, as well as someone who contributes to charity programs, have a say in the matter. This my opinion. One of many opinions that make up the laws of my country. We, as a country should not feel bad about protecting our way of life.

________________________
Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak ..... As you said your family worked up from nothing. But where were they from ...europe??... That was my point before. You CAN get somewhere if you work your ass of in Eurpoe , America, australia etc. But you can work every day of your whole life in other countries and get nowhere. Thats where your superiority came in. ......

It is unfortunate that there are countries in this world that are experiencing war and famine and other plights. Because I do not want to open the US up to every single person does not make me arrogant. I am a realist. That would be a tremendous strain upon the economy. I feel for them, but there is only so much one can do. As I have said, there are programs in place. Why I am I the problem in your eyes? Why aren't you looking to the leaders of the oppressive or dangerous countries to fix the problems for their nationals? I donate to five charities right now. Am I arrogant because I don't donate to 10 or 50? I do my part and help who I can.
________________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak .......you assume that everyone has a choice and that if they dont take these non existant choices they arent loyal to america. Its all so backward......

I can "get my head around it" that some people can work for the opportunity to get here. Some can't. I understand that some have it much easier than others. There still needs to be a system in place to account for and pay for all of the peoples entering the US.
_________________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak ....The correct term is asylum seeker...

I am aware of that. See post #32. I chose different wording.
________________________
Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak .....How am i meant to reason with you type of thinking when many countries DO NOT HAVE ANY CURRENT GOVERMENT DEPARTMENTS OFFERING PASSPORTS OR VISAS! Those countries have war and there is no way for the average citizen to do anything about it so they have no choice but to leave......

There are countries that are unstable and unsafe to sustain a passport office. Why aren't you looking to the country who is oppressing its nationals? Why is the US the villian? Why should an American put their life on the line so that a passport office can be available? Would you do it? Are you willing to die for it? Would you want to send your parents or children to open a passport office? Is that how you want to serve your cause?
_________________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak .....Back to *illgeal immigrants* and not asylum seekers being forgiven. They dont even get asked to be sorry for it. The largest illegal visa and overtstayer offender group in the uk is AUSTRALIANS AND AMERICANS they never get made to pay for it. Thats why this is so often a racial issue.....

So due to the fact that they are American or Australian, they are white? You have some preconceived notions. If Americans and Aussies are overstaying their visa or have illegally immigrated to the UK, kick them out. They are breaking the law too. If you feel that they are not getting the attention/punishment they deserve, by all means, work for change in the UK.
_____________________________
Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak ...I feel no desire to make these people feel like they have done anything wrong or ask for them to repent...

So don't. No one is asking you too. I just want there to be law and order.
______________________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak ....Also why do you keep IGNORING the fact that they bring more to the economy than take from it?!! You spend $2 a year of taxes on them and you whinge over that. And want their countries to *pay* for the imaginary damage they do to the amerian economy. Like i said the american economy would collapse if they all left. You keepo saying they harm it yet financialy there is not proof to back that up....

I spend more than $2/year. The expenses are everywhere. Does an illegal immigrant who does not pay taxes to contribute drive on our roadways? My taxes pay for their construction and upkeep. Does an illegal immigrant have children in school? My taxes pay for their construction, teachers, upkeep and supplies? Does in illegal immigrant receive medical attention at a hospital that they don't have insurance for? I pay for that by way of higher medical costs. Hospitals recoup their expenses elsewhere and that "elsewhere" is me. You make it sound as if the tax man comes around each year and grabs my $2 illegal immigrant donation. It isn't that simple. It is a cumulative affect. It is all of the little things that add up.

Aside from that, it is your duty and obligation to pay taxes if you live in this country. I do my share. Why should illegal immigrants get preferential treatment by way of not having to contribute via taxes?
_______________________________
Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak .....If you care so much about all these offenders WHY are you talking obviously about particular countries and not the actual highest offending countries where people have a choice.

I haven't mentioned any country as an offender, so I don't see where you are getting this from. You obviously have decided that I have something in mind. That is really you passing your preconceived judgements onto me. There is nothing I can do about that.
_________________________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak ....Please answer this question and dont ignore it ..id really like to know what spurs you on to care so *selectivly* about only a tiny proportion of immigrants and not the majority of which you dont pass any judgement on.

I think I have made myself more than clear. People should not illegally immigrate. Other programs need to be in place to help them.

You keep bringing up race and selectivity. You really want to make this about race, but in my eyes, it all comes down to our economy and security. I don't care if you are white, black, purple or plaid. I just want you to obey the law.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't want to argue with you. You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. You have made shots at most of what I have said, but not answered this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore .... what you feel is the right solution? Do you feel that America should open its borders? Should the UK? Should anyone and everyone who has the means to get to our borders and is in a bad way, be allowed to enter?Should all of the people that have broken the law by illegally immigrating to the US or the UK or anywhere else just be forgiven? I am talking about all illegal immigrants here...

 

[quandolak]

You left out the part of my response....

How long should one pay for the sins of their fathers?

Quote*

As far as i am aware no one is paying for anything here. Its the current situation that people should be ashamed of. Countries cant expect to go around killing in foreign countries then whige when they get people fleeing fromt the war .






Quote*
There are countries that are unstable and unsafe to sustain a passport office. Why aren't you looking to the country who is oppressing its nationals? Why is the US the villian? Why should an American put their life on the line so that a passport office can be available? Would you do it? Are you willing to die for it? Would you want to send your parents or children to open a passport office? Is that how you want to serve your cause?

Quote*


The countries with war ,political problems etc..Who said i dont think they are doing wrong.

I never said US is the villain but since we are talking about american immigration here i am assuming that people are allowed to reply with praise or disagreement on its immigration system. So if we included more countries in the topic would that make me anti them too if i had an opinion on ONE part of its overall goverment?

Americans are not putting their lives on the line in 99% of the countries, That too is of course selective(a whole other topic really). Also did i say they had to?


You are ranting on about me going to open a passport office as if that is somehow possible. The point that i have tried over and over again to make and that you have consistantly ignored is its peoples immature judgements about immigration in their country of residence...(for the majoity here US)..that is the problem. I havent told you to go sort out their problems oversea but to sort them out at home. Not you literally but the goverment needs to sort out its immigration system. I think the same for the uk and australian goverments.

This isnt anti american although you seem desperate to be a victim of it.


For someone so concerned that people are assuming.. you are doing a pretty good job of ignoring the simple fact that im talking about the immigration system and NOT the country overall...paranoia maybe?



Quote*
So due to the fact that they are American or Australian, they are white? You have some preconceived notions. If Americans and Aussies are overstaying their visa or have illegally immigrated to the UK, kick them out. They are breaking the law too. If you feel that they are not getting the attention/punishment they deserve, by all means, work for change in the UK.


Quote*

Its nothing to do with their colour. Its to do with the fact that these countries are completley overlooked when it comes to bemoaning illegal immigration. Some british overstayer may not be white..thats kind of proves that im NOT implying your showing preferntial treatment to whites . Britan ,canada etc are multicultural too.

I never said nothing needs to be done about that. I was however talking about how people focus on those who have no choice but to illegally immigrate whilst ignoring those that break the law and had a choice no to..those that had a choice strangy enough nearly all come from 4 countries .Yet from the way that people go on in this topic you would think that people from the first world have no choice and those from the third have every opportunity going. Have you ever noticed that illegals tend to be poor . Have you ever met a rich one?



Quote*

I spend more than $2/year. The expenses are everywhere. Does an illegal immigrant who does not pay taxes to contribute drive on our roadways? My taxes pay for their construction and upkeep. Does an illegal immigrant have children in school? My taxes pay for their construction, teachers, upkeep and supplies? Does in illegal immigrant receive medical attention at a hospital that they don't have insurance for? I pay for that by way of higher medical costs. Hospitals recoup their expenses elsewhere and that "elsewhere" is me. You make it sound as if the tax man comes around each year and grabs my $2 illegal immigrant donation. It isn't that simple. It is a cumulative affect. It is all of the little things that add up.

Aside from that, it is your duty and obligation to pay taxes if you live in this country. I do my share. Why should illegal immigrants get preferential treatment by way of not having to contribute via taxes?


Quote*



Preferential treatment..what a fairytale you have made up there.

The claim that illegals dont pay taxes is just that a CLAIM and nothing more. So the whole last paragraph there is entierly irrelevant as it is again not based on REALITY. Considering that nearly all illegals have come to work that just doesnt add up.


Illegal mmigrants pay taxes, They pay income taxes as mentioned in the Social Security Administration’s *suspense file*. These are taxes that cannot be matched to workers names or social security numbers(that in 1900-1998 brought the american economy $20 billion) .
Every time they fill out a job application form or get hired they have to supply a social security number even if the employer is knowingly employing and illegal they require this so at they(employer) does not get in trouble.
The employer can then deduct(the same as with legal citizens) money from their paycheck for IRS,medicare,social security and state goverment contributions.



Illegals pay taxes but dont get any back in tax returns etc. They cant use the health service without valid id and therefore CANT receive medicare or social security benefits that they contributed taxes to. YOU however can benefit from their taxes.


Immigrants receive a tiny percentage of what american citizens do if they use the health care system (rare)..lower ammounts are spent on them in the emergency room,medical visits and prescription drugs . Illegals also are the group that least uses the health care system as they dont have health care cover therefore would have to pay alot to use it. So therefore the dont put any strain on it and if they use it they have to pay for it not YOU.

Also as they are illegal they could face being deported if they disclosed their status to the hosiptal.

So as for the the taxes for roads,teachers,schools and upkeep. Illegals DO pay for it via tax dedcutions so as the dodgy employer wont get caught. The illegals stil get paid less than the minimum wage and still pay the same taxs as you do without getting all of the benefits.

Their taxes contribute to provide YOUR healthcare, YOUR roads,schools,teachers,upkeep supplies construction, YOUR kids education and those taxes also make sure those citizens who are on various benefits are kept in good nick.




Thats not so preferential is it...well maybe if you have a warped sense of reality it is.


.................................................. ..............................................



You all seem to think that without your reastaraunt worker,taxi drivers,cleaners,maids,gardners,fruit pickers ect that you would be fine.

And of course i fully expect you to say that i dont care who does it just that they are legal...well if your so concerned why dont you go and try to convince the several million citizens in america who are the equivalent to job seekers allowance to take these jobs. They wont! The goverment has spent millions on trying to get its citizens to take these jobs.

So there are citizens who can but wont work and there are people in need that will work 7 days a week on a low wage and pay taxes whilst gaining little from them..what do you think is going to happen...citizens rushing to be fruit pickers??

.................................................. ............................................
Quote shimmer*

I REALLY want see to the creditable documentation proving that only $2 every year is spent out of my tax dollars every year on illegal immigrants

Quote*


Those numbers were from Oxfam uk when i worked there. I cant remember the exact source but that organisation does not discriminate on political issues etc so its not pro illegal immigrant or anti. I know this wont be considered valid enough for you but i can live with that as its a non biased organisations findings.

 

[quandolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy = If you suggest that we should overlook the fact that they came here illegally, do you think that we should turn a blind eye to the fact that they are stealing our identities and personal information?

I didnt suggest you should overlook it. I am saying that none of you seem to be able to understand that breaking the law in many case is not a choice.

And are illegals stealing identity on mass or are there just one or two scaremonger cases?

 

[quandolak]

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore
.... what you feel is the right solution? Do you feel that America should open its borders? Should the UK? Should anyone and everyone who has the means to get to our borders and is in a bad way, be allowed to enter?Should all of the people that have broken the law by illegally immigrating to the US or the UK or anywhere else just be forgiven? I am talking about all illegal immigrants here...

Quote*

I did actually already answer that question but if i need to go over it again i will.

I didnt say open the borders. I said there needs to be a rethink of the immigration laws and those who are so concerned by it all need to stop spreading myths and stick to facts about illegals who didnt have a choice as opposed to those who did.

Obviously not everyone from the third world can go to america or the uk. And the majority dont ever. Illegals are a iny minority compared to overal immigrant numbers. And with immigrants whether legal or not they are a tiny minority from their country that leave for america etc. . Its not like the third world is literally swamping america or the uk.

Anyway i mentioned earlier about the idea of *forgiving* illegals...how lame..

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak The claim that illegals dont pay taxes is just that a CLAIM and nothing more. So the whole last paragraph there is entierly irrelevant as it is again not based on REALITY. Considering that nearly all illegals have come to work that just doesnt add up.

most illegals have come to work, however, they are undocumented (hence the term illegal). an undocumented worker has no taxes collected from them because as far as the United States government knows, they don't even exist because they have no papers saying they do.

many of them do not have SSNs, because it's illegal for them to have one. if an illegal alien has an SSN, it is a stolen one. you must be a United States citizen to have your own SSN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Illegals pay taxes but dont get any back in tax returns etc. They cant use the health service without valid id and therefore CANT receive medicare or social security benefits that they contributed taxes to. YOU however can benefit from their taxes.

they may not be able to access things like Social Security, however they have full access to programs like IEHP and MediCal (both are tax funded medical welfare programs here in California) if an illegal alien gets hurt here and goes to the hospital to seek medical care, the hospital cannot turn them away by law. if they do not have health insurance (which most don't) MediCal (ie. taxpayers) foots the bill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak And are illegals stealing identity on mass or are there just one or two scaremonger cases?

in my immediate family alone (which consists of 4 people, myself included) 2 of them have had their identities stolen by illegals...i'd say those are some pretty heavy odds. you even said yourself that many of these illegals have SSNs, the only way an illegal can have an SSN is if they have commited identity theft. they may not all do it, but there are sure as hell alot of them who do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak I didnt say open the borders. I said there needs to be a rethink of the immigration laws and those who are so concerned by it all need to stop spreading myths and stick to facts about illegals who didnt have a choice as opposed to those who did.

don't try to convince yourself that we are spreading falsities. we are only spreading the information that we have seen with our own eyes, heard with our own ears. we live in the midst of this plague of illegal immigration, we suffer at the hand of it's effects every day. it's not like we sit here and make this stuff up. what we say is real. we know it's real because we've seen it. we're living it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Its not like the third world is literally swamping america or the uk.

they may not be swamping the UK, but as far as them not swamping America, i beg to differ. i live about 150 miles from the Mexican border, and i can tell you that illegal immigrants are the majority here. this is true even as far north as Colorado...i'd pretty much classify that as being "swamped" hah.

 

[quandolak]

many of them do not have SSNs, because it's illegal for them to have one. if an illegal alien has an SSN, it is a stolen one. you must be a United States citizen to have your own SSN.



they may not be able to access things like Social Security, however they have full access to programs like IEHP and MediCal (both are tax funded medical welfare programs here in California) if an illegal alien gets hurt here and goes to the hospital to seek medical care, the hospital cannot turn them away by law. if they do not have health insurance (which most don't) MediCal (ie. taxpayers) foots the bill

*quote *


Thats false you have to have valid id for that. And for work you can give a false SSN . As this as mentioned before is called a *suspense file* by social security and is where they can NOT trace the number back to an actual person therefore it isnt a case of identity theft but of literally not existing. These applications can take several months by which time these peopel are already working before it is found ou to be a non existant number.

Im sorry that your family has has identity theft but that isnt a reason to call all of these *suspense files* identitiy theft. Identity theft is generally conducted by someone of the same race,nationality ect as its easier to get away with it for longer. My friend alos got her idenity stolen and it was by someone who held many of her *traits* being australian,college student ect..not someone who had a foreign accent with a anglo name on the stolen documents...Thats how the majority of identity thefts work anyway.


Quote*


they may not be swamping the UK, but as far as them not swamping America, i beg to differ. i live about 150 miles from the Mexican border, and i can tell you that illegal immigrants are the majority here. this is true even as far north as Colorado...i'd pretty much classify that as being "swamped" hah.

Quote*


If you live near the border of any country you will notice nationals of the other there too (illegal or not) and when a poor country borders a rich one it will be the most prominent there too. Its interesting to see you can differntiate between illegal mexican immigrants, those on a visa or those born in america and are citizens. But i applaud you.

I have never heard the claim of illegals being the majority in southern california but whatever rocks your boat.


In an american population of 300,000,000 and an estimated 5 million illegals (60% who are visa overstayers who came legally but didnt renew their visa) they are hradly going to overtake you any day now..

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE ANTHEM you must be a United States citizen to have your own SSN.

Not true. Resident aliens are granted SSNs on a regular basis. I've had mine since I was 5 and I only became a US citizen 6 years ago, at 21.

 

[caffn8me]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak There are 16,000 asylum claims a year

OK - let's look at some facts rather than relying on conjecture which has no references to back it up. In 2004, there were 33,960 asylum seekers who arrived in the UK. In 2005 it was 25,710. You can verify these figures here

If you're actually looking at illegal immigrants (which concerns me more than asylum seekers and I stated as much) then the official figures released by HM Government in the report titled Sizing the unauthorized (illegal) migrant population in the United Kingdom in 2001 show that a minimum of 310,000 illegal immigrants are in the UK. That's more than the entire population of Coventry, the UK's 11th largest city, which has a population of slightly over 303,000 - source here

The upper figure in the 2001 report is 570,000 - that's 22% more than the entire population of the country of Luxembourg (source here).

You still don't think we have a problem with illegal immigration? ALL of these people will be treated by the National Health Service free of charge if they are ill. Almost none of them will pay taxes.

Have I ever seen any white cleaners in London? Yes. As it happens I know several personally. One of these is white, ancestrally English and another is Spanish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandalok As for NHS abusers strangley enough again those found to be abusing the system for free have been citizens of western countries and not those from the third world.

I don't care where the abusers of the system come from. I don't care what race, creed or colour they are. If they're illegal immigrants, they're illegal. Nowhere in my post have I mentioned anything about race or skin colour in relation to illegal immigrants. Please don't for one moment try to suggest that I have.

Quote:

As for the government not deporting them . I suppose because its not reported in the sun you dont realise that several 747's a week take people back to afghanistan,sudan,somalia,iraq etc.

I'm fully aware of what the government does and doesn't do. Please could you explain what you are trying to imply by suggesting I read a rag like The Sun? The Times is no better. I'm a research scientist by training. I use primary reference material, not hearsay. The UK government's own figures show exactly how many failed asylum seekers are deported. You can read the results for the last two years here

That's just failed asylum seekers and the number is insignificant compared to overall illegal immigrants. Given that we probably have half a million illegal immigrants in the UK (Home office figures referenced earlier) I think it's pretty obvious that the government isn't doing a whole lot to deport them. A Boeing 747-400 aircraft in two class configuration holds 524 passengers (source: Boeing) . It would take about a thousand flights at full capacity to remove all the illegal immigrants currently in the UK. Actually, if we're lucky, we could do it in just 591 flights if the 310,000 figure is correct. That's a lot of flights. How many Boeing 747s leave the UK carrying 524 illegal immigrants for deportation? None. Zero. Zilch.

Quote:

So next time you make more predictably daft staments can you please tell me how you actually KNOW that the goverment doesnt send home these people

I've just posted the figures that prove the government doesn't send illegal immigrants home. I've also posted a link to figures that show the government doesn't send all failed asylum seekers home. You can check these for yourself instead of making allegations which you fail to back up with any evidence.

Quote:

and can you show me that asylum seekers are on a gravy train or those that you think are taking advantage of £38.80.

It's a pity you've tried to twist my original post to make it seem as though the only thing I was worried about was asylum seekers. That isn't the case. My main concern is illegal immigrants. You fail to understand that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandalok Quote'' Many of those who arrive do actually find productive work but many just come to abuse our welfare system. Quote'' Polish Oh do they. Consider you cant apply for benefits if you have not worked a whole year of fulltime work in the uk and consider the tiny percentage of those who actually make claims.

and you don't consider the NHS to be part of the welfare system? It has been since 5th July 1948. Do you have any idea how much NHS treatments actually cost? Evidently not. A number of years ago I was dealing with an Eastern European patient at a UK hospital. His treatment cost the NHS over half a million pounds. That was paid for entirely by the UK taxpayer. An illegal immigrant in the UK admitted to a UK hospital with the same condition will get exactly the same treatment, only now it will be much more expensive because that figure I quoted was ten years ago.

Quote:

Im mentioning asylum seekers as that what you wrote. And asylum seekers arent illegal immigrants as the press likes to call them as you are only and illegal immigrant if you dont make yourself known to authorities. Therefore illegal immigrants CANT make claims for benefits in either America or the uk.

There is no definition on British law of the term "illegal immigrant". You don't need to "make a claim" to receive NHS treatment or send your children to schools. The term "illegal immigrant" can and does however apply to asylum seekers whose claims of persecution are false. The term "asylum seeker" is defined in section 18 of the Nationality, Immigration And Asylum Act 2002. While someone is regarded as an asylum seeker under the act they are eligible for accommodation in an accommodation centre. That is in addition to the £38.80 per week that you mention.

Quote:

When over three quarters of uk bound immigrants of all kinds are born in either america,australia or germany and also being the largest group to defraud its logical to come to the conflusion that your concern over the gravy train is either racial or stems from self imposed ignorance.

This is an unwarranted personal attack and as I have shown completely untrue.

Quote:

p.s Im not attacking you

No, of course you aren't. It just seems that way.

 

[quandolak]

OK - let's look at some facts rather than relying on conjecture which has no references to back it up.
Quote*


The truth is there are so many goverment reports that cater to every point of view. I got mine from the bbc immigration report which quoted government sources . So go figure.


Quote*

I'm a research scientist by training. I use primary reference material, not hearsay.

Quote*

Thats may be so but referance material nearly always proved utterly useless when i was working with oxfam as we saw the reality of what was happening every day of the week and had to help these people out as opposed to forming our views on reports that didnt even touch on what is really happening with the immigration system.
Especially when commisioned by someone like migration watch or thinktanks where they have already decided the outcome of the report before any research has been done.

I dont know what sort of research you do but in regards to immigration whoever is funding the report has already decided the view that it will take.

It isnt hearsay to be involved in these peoples lives in that capacity and to see what really happens.. eg. they DONT all get housing (only a few asylum seekers do but illegals DONT) that is an utter and total lie on the governments part as there are thousands of destitute illegals whatever your view on their actions that is a fact and the goverment can claim all it likes that it houses them . Maybe they would like to take a walk around manchester/london city at night or homless shelters and see the situation and rethink those politically fuelled claims. As this is totally a political issue in the uk as the police full well know where the illegal immigrants work and could round them up at the snap of a finger but they dont. Its just an election issue..it can bring in the votes but its not really a priority.




Quote*
How many Boeing 747s leave the UK carrying 524 illegal immigrants for deportation? None. Zero. Zilch.
Quote*


Boeing 747's used for deportations leave gatwick heathrow and manchester airports a minimum of 3 times a week. Whether or not they leave will full capacity i dont know. I mentioned i have known of several afghans who have been forced onto these flights and sent back and some of them had taken their case to court to prevent it from happening but failed .

So please dont tell me it doesnt happen. Just because its not reported very often doesnt means its not happening. It only gets reported when immigration is back in the spotlight. But if you still dont belive me you can go to the BBC site and search *immigrant deportations* there you will quite clearly see that it IS happening.


Quote*
I've just posted the figures that prove the government doesn't send illegal immigrants home. I've also posted a link to figures that show the government doesn't send all failed asylum seekers home. You can check these for yourself instead of making allegations which you fail to back up with any evidence.

Quote*



Ermm ditto to what a wrote above... But if you feel the need to make false statments then fine.



EVIDENCE..

Have you ever heard of yarls wood,Harmondsworth?...or any other removal centres and how they REMOVE people from the uk via aeoraplanes! They were even going to build one in Bicester until a petition stopped it .It would have housed 720 *illegals* at a time... ready to be removed(now they are finding a new location for it)

I sincerly hope these centres arent all a front for something else.


Illegal immigrant and failed asylum removals 1998 - 2003
1998: 6,990
1999: 7,665
2000: 8,980
2001: 9,285
2002: 10,740
2003: 13,005
2004: 12,430
Source: Home Office

OMG it seems like they are not! Forgive me for the sarcasm but talk about denying the bleeding obvious.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3985677.stm
Oh and look there are even photos to prove it...


The National Audit Office's report 'Returning Failed Asylum Applicants'(only one illegal type not including those removed for visa overtay and non asylum cases) notes that between 1994 and May 2004 79,500 people were removed from the uk.



And those figuers that you gave do not prove that many illegals or failed asylum dont get sent home as the bbc and many other sites left wing ,right wing or neautral attest to the fact that they DO.

All those figures do is show that new immigrants have arrived. That doesnt in anyway prove that others havent left.

I never claimed all do get deported either so i wouldnt bother trying to say i did.

I am not making allegations but am posting what i have seen with my own eyes as FACT and what many organizations have to deal with .

Those reports conveniently fail to include an awful lot of data about how a high percentageof *illegal immigrants * are later found to be asylum seekers and how many deportation decisions have to later be reversed as the courts are smart enough to come to the conclusion that it isnt illegal to have to leave a country with war etc and to NOT be able to aquire a legal way to do it.

It takes years to take all these cases to court and whether you like it or not its their right to be allowed a hearing. That in many cases changes their status from illegal to asylum seeker . Hence the number of *illegals* not deported give a false figure as many stay on legally in the uk after succesful court cases.

 

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Illegal mmigrants pay taxes, They pay income taxes as mentioned in the Social Security Administration’s *suspense file*. These are taxes that cannot be matched to workers names or social security numbers(that in 1900-1998 brought the american economy $20 billion) . Every time they fill out a job application form or get hired they have to supply a social security number even if the employer is knowingly employing and illegal they require this so at they(employer) does not get in trouble. The employer can then deduct(the same as with legal citizens) money from their paycheck for IRS,medicare,social security and state goverment contributions. Illegals pay taxes but dont get any back in tax returns etc. They cant use the health service without valid id and therefore CANT receive medicare or social security benefits that they contributed taxes to. YOU however can benefit from their taxes.

The fact that they're knowingly using a false social security number is fraud and identity theft, in some cases, depending on if the number they've taken is in use. This is illegal... and why? Because they're not suppose to be here in the first place. That's what you keep forgetting.

It sounds cruel, but bottom line is the US Government doesn't care what one's situation is in their home country, there are *still* rules that *everyone* has to abide by in order to keep security and structure. Whether or not they had a choice of leaving their country is a moot point- they had a choice to stay where they are (legal) or show up in a different country (illegal). The law doesn't make concessions for what their country's current status is (war, famine, etc), it determines whether or not they came here the right way.

Bottom line: if you can't do it right, you don't deserve to be here.

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 Not true. Resident aliens are granted SSNs on a regular basis. I've had mine since I was 5 and I only became a US citizen 6 years ago, at 21.

really? damn...okay, my bad ha. i was always under the impression that it was issued at birth. mine was, i thought thats how they did all of them. thanks, Ladybug.

and quandolak, you do not have to show a valid ID to get health care via MediCal or IEHP. my mom works for the welfare department that covers both programs and they grant money and coverage to illegals DAILY who cannot produce a valid ID.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak If you live near the border of any country you will notice nationals of the other there too (illegal or not) and when a poor country borders a rich one it will be the most prominent there too. Its interesting to see you can differntiate between illegal mexican immigrants, those on a visa or those born in america and are citizens. But i applaud you. I have never heard the claim of illegals being the majority in southern california but whatever rocks your boat.

living close to the border, yes it is more prominent. i'm not sure how learned you are on the states and their placement, but Colorado is pretty far north of the border, so this problem isn't something that's just close to the border.

and you may have never heard such claims, but trust me when i make them. keep in mind i live here, and have lived here my entire life. i've noticed the influx and yes, legal citizens are outnumbered in most cities in southern California.

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quandolak, I started out stating my opinion and you had questions, so I answered them. I would have loved to discuss or debate this further, but you are using language that is really not conducive to a constructive debate, IMO.

Telling me "what a fairy tale you made up", telling me I act arrogant and superior, that I can't "wrap my head around something" or that I am "whinging" or "ranting on" is not necessary. For the record, I never considered any of this a rant. It was a discussion on my end.

As I said before we are just going to have to agree to disagree. You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine.