Jena 6

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 I think an important fact that keeps getting overlooked is the prior VIOLENT history of at least one of the perps, Mychael Bell. Sorry, but its time to put the kid in jail, for a good long time, where he belongs. He is obviously NOT affected by the slaps on the wrist he keeps getting when he commits crimes.

Dude. Those were just mistakes. You can't learn from your mistakes if you're not given the chance.
Over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Why is it NEVER racism when it's a white victim? I don't understand that.

 

[wolfsong]

Because the world is too PC - you cant right what has happened by treating the white man as inferior. Everyone should have equality - however this doesnt seem to be a concept that the majority of humans grasp.

*And i understand that was a rhetorical question!

 

[Shimmer]

It really wasn't rhetorical.
For people who say they abhor racism, and hate to see ANY man discriminated against for race or color, there are a LOT of excuses made across the boards for this situation, when it's NOT an unreasonable conclusion to say that the attack was racially motivated.

Why is racism okay, as long as it's against caucasians?

 

[wolfsong]

Of course it was racial. It was a retaliation towards the white kids, and perhaps deeper issues. The timing of it and the nature of the attack suggests the above. It wouldnt surprise me if these boys weren't waiting for a chance to do something like this - for an 'excuse'.

I am shocked at the level of PC in the UK, but our legal methods at least are a lot fairer than what some parts of America seem to be (with the exception of our handling of immigration - too soft to most, too harsh to a few).
I think the children and teenagers (of ALL races) in that town need serious education on ethics. This should have been done by the parents when they were young enough to set moral principles, the chain of discrimination needs to be broken. However these things take a long time, and are usually only successful at stamping out public racism - how many people have you heard of or know that say they arent prejudice, yet dont like their children playing with/dating those of other races (not just with white people)? That have issues with someone whos skin is a different colour getting promoted above them, or using hateful slang when agrivated?
My grandfather calls black people 'brownies' and doesnt know why i get annoyed at him. My mother says she is fine with gay people, yet when telling something that has happened with a gay man at work always brings up the fact he's gay when it plays NO relevance. Its their generations, but its still wrong. As it would be wrong for someone not liking me dating their son/daughter because im white/atheist, or calling me 'snowflake' - racial abuse works both ways.

 

[faifai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer It really wasn't rhetorical. For people who say they abhor racism, and hate to see ANY man discriminated against for race or color, there are a LOT of excuses made across the boards for this situation, when it's NOT an unreasonable conclusion to say that the attack was racially motivated. Why is racism okay, as long as it's against caucasians?

It isn't ok.

Or rather, it shouldn't be. And I cringe every time I see someone say they can't possibly hold racist views because s/he is a minority. It just isn't true.

 

[lafemmenoir]

Well, Shimmer here where I live you would not have to worry about ANYONE bothering you because, by your own words, anything country is a moot point and that doesn't matter what your skin colour is.
Sadly, some people cannot take their own opinions out of the facts. Why would people even defend hanging nooses? Are we children? Burning crosses? How can an American burn a cross? That's like burning a flag, as "Under God" is at the core of the country the USA is founded upon.
Everyone is treated poorly at some time and it isn't always about skin colour. Whether it's sexuality, economic status, gender and so on.
I don't remember any election which nominated Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson as their "representatives." In fact, people were upset that this case is JUST NOW getting media attention. I've watched since it's inception. LAST YEAR. Does this make me an expert? No, but I do know enough about people to know that we are innately prejudiced against something or someone admittedly or not. Anyone who isn't needs to marinate in their thoughts for a bit.
As for the NAACP, what makes it different than the ACLU, NOW, PETA etc.? You are free to create your own special interest group for a good cause, but don't believe everything you read unless you were there. The media has an agenda. All the players here do as well and we all want to see this thing go away. Is it about racism or justice, the arguments vascilate. How can we compare rape and a fight? Different crimes and here a poor any kid would not get a fair trial and that happens to everyone. The point is, it was based on race. It started out of race relations and turned into violence and from there a mecca of abuse of power vs. the law. True, it may be legal to hang a noose where you live, but does that make it something that should protected at a mixed race school? People always want to compare slavery with some other social issue. We can't heal if we keep justifying unequal protection of the law. By the way, since the first amendment grants free speech, should I go into a crowded theatre and yell "FIRE!" and expect no one to want to kick my a$$ afterwards....

 

[wolfsong]

Your post doesnt make much sense to me - i dont know if its because im tired.
Rape CAN be compared to a fight because they are both acts of violence, and both have a victim.
This CAN be racial violence as well as gender etc.

The media always makes pawns out of issues like this - its how they make their money and stature. But its how word travels, and people can choose to believe the first thing they hear, or can search for information from what may be different sides. Its basic research which is taught in schools, and i'd like to think most people do this when forming an opinion on something like this.

Also there is a difference between someone wanting to kick your ass and actually doing it. You can express hostility without the aid of violence, you can get your voice heard without the aid of violence. And i think you can stand by your beliefs without causing harm to others or making threats to do so.
That to me is the difference between freedom of speech and hate crimes etc.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lafemmenoir Well, Shimmer here where I live you would not have to worry about ANYONE bothering you because, by your own words, anything country is a moot point and that doesn't matter what your skin colour is.

I don't understand this statement. Anything country? Please elaborate, or give me links, and explain this statement.

Quote:

Sadly, some people cannot take their own opinions out of the facts. Why would people even defend hanging nooses? Are we children? Burning crosses? How can an American burn a cross? That's like burning a flag, as "Under God" is at the core of the country the USA is founded upon. Everyone is treated poorly at some time and it isn't always about skin colour. Whether it's sexuality, economic status, gender and so on.

It's not illegal to hang nooses.
It's not illegal to burn crosses.
It's not illegal to burn the flag.
Those are freedoms of expression and speech, which soldiers have fought and died for.
There's no defense for hanging a noose, because other than criminal mischief if it's public, it's not illegal. If I choose to do it in my front yard, it's not illegal.


Quote:

I don't remember any election which nominated Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson as their "representatives." In fact, people were upset that this case is JUST NOW getting media attention. I've watched since it's inception. LAST YEAR. Does this make me an expert? No, but I do know enough about people to know that we are innately prejudiced against something or someone admittedly or not. Anyone who isn't needs to marinate in their thoughts for a bit. As for the NAACP, what makes it different than the ACLU, NOW, PETA etc.? You are free to create your own special interest group for a good cause, but don't believe everything you read unless you were there. The media has an agenda. All the players here do as well and we all want to see this thing go away. Is it about racism or justice, the arguments vascilate. How can we compare rape and a fight? Different crimes and here a poor any kid would not get a fair trial and that happens to everyone. The point is, it was based on race. It started out of race relations and turned into violence and from there a mecca of abuse of power vs. the law. True, it may be legal to hang a noose where you live, but does that make it something that should protected at a mixed race school?

If I were to create a White Women Forward special interest group and procure through my group funding for college, housing assistance, job training, daycare assistance, disaster assistance, shelter assistance, interview assistance for low income white women in my area, etc, and the program was successful, I imagine it would fly like a lead balloon because someone would apply and be denied because she's a middle eastern woman, or a black woman would be denied because she's a black woman, ALL KINDS OF HELL would break loose.




Quote:

People always want to compare slavery with some other social issue. We can't heal if we keep justifying unequal protection of the law. By the way, since the first amendment grants free speech, should I go into a crowded theatre and yell "FIRE!" and expect no one to want to kick my a$$ afterwards....

That's actually illegal.

 

[lipstickandhate]

Well I apologize for my offensive profanity to anyone who was offended. I suppose I am still surprised people are offended by profanities on an internet message board.

I had not realized the subject was too sensitive for cursing. I can't think of anything too sensitive for cursing as I do not believe use of profanity to be indicative of anything other than use of profanity. Unfortunately, many members of the bar as well as members of the SEC and American Board of Medicine curse.

I disagree that this thread should be closed simply b/c some people are through discussing its contents, however. Some people just found this thread and I think they are just as entitled to contribute as the other members who added their thoughts when it initially emerged.

Why is a thread apparently so hurtful to some that they are willing to censor others to avoid or close the discussion or the self-restraint required not to read it? Who gets to decide when a discussion no longer has appropriate value or uniqueness sufficient to merit continued existance?

 

[wolfsong]

Are we not meant to swear? Didnt know that one...

I personally think this is one of the most valid and interesting threads ive seen on this site so far (granted ive just ventured out of MAC Chat the last couple of days...) I dont understand why people would close it, and on what grounds? If the anorexia thread makes someone uncomfortable and they want to keep ignorant to it should it be closed?
By the time you've read the first one or two posts you can get what this is about. If a person doesnt like the topic they can decide not to read or participate in it. Ive seen many threads that i dont consider of any relevance, and i click the close button. End of.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lipstickandhate Why is a thread apparently so hurtful to some that they are willing to censor others to avoid or close the discussion or the self-restraint required not to read it? Who gets to decide when a discussion no longer has appropriate value or uniqueness sufficient to merit continued existance?

I perceive this as inflated entitlement and ego.
I don't understand the problem people have with:

Your rights (to be offended or not offended or anything else) really end when the person behind you's rights begin.

 

[lipstickandhate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigowaters I didn't assume, it's what you said. I didn't take anything out of context and you didn't add anything. And I could give a flip about statistics (took that too), seeing as there are always statistics to go against each other and they change every week. I guess I, my mom and my friends happen to also be the exceptions too, hmm? The exception is supposed to be a very little group that isn't expected to act like the rest of the people being generalized huh? And I believe you see the violence that comes from upper-middle class neighborhoods just as I do.

First of all, I certainly never meant to imply you were uneducated. I don't believe you are at all. And yes, you are right, statistics do change frequently and have all sorts of errors and can be interpreted in different ways. Absolutely.

Secondly, my exceptions comment was more flippant than serious and I know many people who are not exceptions but are more indicative of their neighborhoods and communities than the lone "bad seeds" many like to believe are indicative of the majority.

I do, however, stand by my statement than young males from tough neighborhoods are, in my personal experience and based on the data I've encountered, more likely to become involved in street crime like drugs, gang activities, larceny, and other criminal endeavors than many young males from more financially affluent, less urban environments. Not WILL become involved but are more likely to do so.

I also feel like you may think I'm alluding to race or ethnicity. I'm not. I mean all rough neighborhoods, white, Hispanic, black, Asian, etc etc. I don't believe race plays a role in "breeding a criminal" for lack of a better description, but I think gender and economic status do. That's not an indictment on all members of anything, its just an observation. And "race" was not figured into my comment there.


That being said, I absolutely agree with you that middle and upper class neighborhoods or individuals have their fair share of criminal activity. Domestic violence is one example that springs to mind.

Finally, I don't know anything about you. I certainly have no reason to believe you're an exception of any type and I don't presume to know your family either.

I apologize if you feel I insulted you or your family personally. It was not my intention.

 

[lipstickandhate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I perceive this as inflated entitlement and ego. I don't understand the problem people have with: Your rights (to be offended or not offended or anything else) really end when the person behind you's rights begin.

The First Amendment is one of the few that hasn't been slowly and dangerously erroded by our illustrious Supreme Court. See Fourth Amendment for a counter example.

I don't understand the desire to shut down an uncomfortable dialogue to protect feelings. It's one thing to avoid participating but it's quite another to try to forbid participation altogether.

 

[wolfsong]

It also says quite a bit about the people wanting to shut it down.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lipstickandhate It's one thing to avoid participating but it's quite another to try to forbid participation altogether.

This is how civil rights are given up.

 

[lafemmenoir]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer IThere's no defense for hanging a noose, because other than criminal mischief if it's public, it's not illegal. If I choose to do it in my front yard, it's not illegal. I didn't say it was illegal, I said poor taste. You can hang nooses as Christmas tree decorum I don't care. You don't matter at your home. If I were to create a White Women Forward special interest group and procure through my group funding for college, housing assistance, job training, daycare assistance, disaster assistance, shelter assistance, interview assistance for low income white women in my area, etc, and the program was successful, I imagine it would fly like a lead balloon because someone would apply and be denied because she's a middle eastern woman, or a black woman would be denied because she's a black woman, ALL KINDS OF HELL would break loose.

Create a white woman forward group I don't care. Who says hell would break loose, have you done it yet. Why do you keep getting to BLACK woman. Other ethnicities exist and if it "special interest" is wrong, why do we have an area on Specktra for women of colour? The same applies, it is targeted for special concerns of others but does not exclude other ethnicities.

Next, don't you identify you and your brothers as "country?" Being that you are Native American, I don't know why your so up in a bunch about special interest, you can have a free ride scholarship anywhere! It appears you like to find the negative to promulgate what is wrong instead of focusing on what the remedy is. I agree this post brings me down and when you argue with a (insert word here) they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. I have more ways to kill my free time. It's been lovely and stay fabulous ladies

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lafemmenoir Create a white woman forward group I don't care. Who says hell would break loose, have you done it yet. Why do you keep getting to BLACK woman. Other ethnicities exist and if it "special interest" is wrong, why do we have an area on Specktra for women of colour? The same applies, it is targeted for special concerns of others but does not exclude other ethnicities.

Are you kidding?
Quote:

Next, don't you identify you and your brothers as "country?" Being that you are Native American, I don't know why your so up in a bunch about special interest, you can have a free ride scholarship anywhere! It appears you like to find the negative to promulgate what is wrong instead of focusing on what the remedy is. I agree this post brings me down and when you argue with a (insert word here) they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. I have more ways to kill my free time. It's been lovely and stay fabulous ladies

I have to have a roster number to be given benefits as a Cherokee. I have to PROVE I'm half Cherokee via a number provided by the US Government to one of my ancestors. If my ancestor didn't want to receive the number, I'm out of luck, because I have to prove my heritage, as well as show a certain percentage. If there is ANY other ethnicity in this country that is required to PROVE their bloodline in order to receive anything, please, tell me. I'm really curious.
My 'brothers'? What do you mean?

 

[wolfsong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lafemmenoir Create a white woman forward group I don't care. Who says hell would break loose, have you done it yet. Why do you keep getting to BLACK woman. Other ethnicities exist and if it "special interest" is wrong, why do we have an area on Specktra for women of colour? The same applies, it is targeted for special concerns of others but does not exclude other ethnicities. Next, don't you identify you and your brothers as "country?" Being that you are Native American, I don't know why your so up in a bunch about special interest, you can have a free ride scholarship anywhere! It appears you like to find the negative to promulgate what is wrong instead of focusing on what the remedy is. I agree this post brings me down and when you argue with a (insert word here) they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. I have more ways to kill my free time. It's been lovely and stay fabulous ladies

First off this is a MAKEUP site - primarily MAC. Therefore skin tone/colour is an important factor. Having a separate section especially for women of colour isnt racist (ive just looked and all the first page is about makeup, i dont need to look at other 3 pages to believe its makeup orientated) - these women can and do participate on all forums. If they were banned from doing so THAT would be racist. Im sure as a pasty English person i wouldnt be chased away from that forum section for posting.

"Being that you are Native American, I don't know why your so up in a bunch about special interest, you can have a free ride scholarship anywhere!" - You are being very ignorant here. Even if hypocrisy was at play, its not your place to try to put words in someones mouth.

 

[lafemmenoir]

Wolfsong,
Don't dare accuse me of racism re: this forum. WHERE did I state that? I stated that fact there is an area for women of colour who are NOT excluded nor is it exclusive.
IGNORANT? Must be you looking into a mirror, I am EXTREMELY educated about Native American grants and loans. Find something better to do than pick cyber debates with people you know nothing about. Get off my back I'm done with this so please stop misquoting me as when it's posted members contact me, and I feel the need to defend myself. SMDH and people wonder how things escalate. DAFT!! Truly DAFT!

 

[wolfsong]

If you want me to stop 'misquoting' you than actually be coherent and articulated when you make points.

Never have i accused you of being racist. Maybe you would like to point out/quote me as to where i have made this statement.

All ive done is make rather placid points about what you wrote. By posting on a PUBLIC forum you are opening yourself up to debate with every word you write. It is my prerogative to voice my opinion.

To be honest none of the posts ive read from you have been lucid to me. If you take what ive said to heart and overreact to my words it is not my problem, i am not going to refrain from expressing my opinion.