Makeup artist against MAC/ MAC pushing independant artists out of the industry
- Thread starter shygirl
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Panamenanegra
Well-known member
For me I like "some" mac products because they work for me and the clients I've used them on. I dont buy something just because it has a certain name on it. Take the foundation for instance..I HATE Mac foundation. I try to convince everyone I deal with, including friends and family, to switch to MUFE. Especially being very darkskinned I have trouble finding a wide range of things that will work on me personally.
I see the concern about them taking jobs. I've had a few mac stores try to convince me to work there instead of freelance but the way I see it..MAC isnt going to out pay me what I make at my 9 to 5 job and I dont have to deal with a retail setting so I would never trade in this freelance situation. Half of the MAs i've run into have no idea what they're talking about.
I dont see myself boycotting MAC anytime soon but I can see the concern of the freelancer about how they are affecting the market.
Gosh that was long...
I see the concern about them taking jobs. I've had a few mac stores try to convince me to work there instead of freelance but the way I see it..MAC isnt going to out pay me what I make at my 9 to 5 job and I dont have to deal with a retail setting so I would never trade in this freelance situation. Half of the MAs i've run into have no idea what they're talking about.
I dont see myself boycotting MAC anytime soon but I can see the concern of the freelancer about how they are affecting the market.
Gosh that was long...
pixichik77
Well-known member
Quote:
It's not about freelance work. It's about union contracts. The people concerned are those swinging on broadway, or working regional opera contracts, etc. I know some people personally who have had MAC call them in an attempt to "give them free product" but in exchange wanted a) to send their own people and b) have "makeup by MAC" in the program. Even thought it was designed by someone else. I have a friend (one of my references) who has even worked for MAC; she was hired to designe a show. She did that. MAC gave product, therefore got the credit. That was not the deal presented to her when she was hired. MAC came in after. As for jobs (we'll look at Broadway for this example), the difference is: those swinging on shows now apply and are hired face to face. MAC wants the contract, then to send who ever they want. The makeup heads have no call in who is working for them. This hurts the end product, IMO.
So this is not about MAC preventing someone from freelancing. It is about MAC misrepresenting thir involvement, taking credit from others, and taking away jobs.
Originally Posted by DirtyPlum
^^ I wouldnt be put off... MAC certainly doesnt hinder anyones chances to freelance and its not like they are watching each and every one of us like Big Brother to hijack any freelance assignments we may pick up... |
It's not about freelance work. It's about union contracts. The people concerned are those swinging on broadway, or working regional opera contracts, etc. I know some people personally who have had MAC call them in an attempt to "give them free product" but in exchange wanted a) to send their own people and b) have "makeup by MAC" in the program. Even thought it was designed by someone else. I have a friend (one of my references) who has even worked for MAC; she was hired to designe a show. She did that. MAC gave product, therefore got the credit. That was not the deal presented to her when she was hired. MAC came in after. As for jobs (we'll look at Broadway for this example), the difference is: those swinging on shows now apply and are hired face to face. MAC wants the contract, then to send who ever they want. The makeup heads have no call in who is working for them. This hurts the end product, IMO.
So this is not about MAC preventing someone from freelancing. It is about MAC misrepresenting thir involvement, taking credit from others, and taking away jobs.
Panamenanegra
Well-known member
Quote:
I hate to bring everything back to Claires but years ago I was a store manager of Claires. At one point they wanted all the stores to push this 99cent pocket knife as an add on to sales to bring your average sales up over 9 dollars per transaction. I would constantly get in trouble because I refused to sell a pocket knife to children. If there was a child in there trying to sneak it into the purchase i would tell the parents (if they even bothered to be in the store) that it was indeed a knife and they should think twice before buying it. Most of the time they assumed it was just a nail file or something and were upset that we would have them on the counter like that. Instead I would try to push other products in the store as addons.
My point is that as MAC MA's have the power once they get a customer in the chair to convince them to buy anything. If you know the studio fix isnt a good choice for them its your ethical duty to the customer to suggest something else. When they figure out they've been mislead it will just cause the customer to not return to you or that whole store/counter for that matter. Why ruin your customer relations just to increase a sale.
I hate the whole MAC foundation line because they dont cater to someone of my own skin tone. I have had many MAC MAs put that crap on my face and seeing that it was 3 shades lighter than me, try to convince me that it was perfect. Ugh! I believe in many of the other products but as a consumer and as a beginning artist I know better than to buy everything just because someone told me so.
| Originally Posted by SonRisa
Can I just say that we were more than encouraged at my counter to sell studio fix as if it were a product to use OVER foundation and for retouching. Why? Because it will increase your sale as it costs more than pressed powders. Straight out of managers/trainers mouths... |
I hate to bring everything back to Claires but years ago I was a store manager of Claires. At one point they wanted all the stores to push this 99cent pocket knife as an add on to sales to bring your average sales up over 9 dollars per transaction. I would constantly get in trouble because I refused to sell a pocket knife to children. If there was a child in there trying to sneak it into the purchase i would tell the parents (if they even bothered to be in the store) that it was indeed a knife and they should think twice before buying it. Most of the time they assumed it was just a nail file or something and were upset that we would have them on the counter like that. Instead I would try to push other products in the store as addons.
My point is that as MAC MA's have the power once they get a customer in the chair to convince them to buy anything. If you know the studio fix isnt a good choice for them its your ethical duty to the customer to suggest something else. When they figure out they've been mislead it will just cause the customer to not return to you or that whole store/counter for that matter. Why ruin your customer relations just to increase a sale.
I hate the whole MAC foundation line because they dont cater to someone of my own skin tone. I have had many MAC MAs put that crap on my face and seeing that it was 3 shades lighter than me, try to convince me that it was perfect. Ugh! I believe in many of the other products but as a consumer and as a beginning artist I know better than to buy everything just because someone told me so.
slipnslide
Active member
^^ Ha! I worked under the Claire's umbrella at Mr. Rags, and they did the same thing to us. They were so sales-driven they lost sight of what in the world it was that they were selling, changed their demographics way too often, (one period it would be raver-oriented, then skater like Billabong, and the next urban like FUBU) and wound up with no customers! All of us could have told them what they were doing wrong.
paperfishies
Well-known member
I'm a freelance artist, not for MAC, though. However I do use mostly MAC on my clients and on myself. I've noticed the opposite about the studio fix thing. I use studio fix foundation and set with studio fix powder...Sometimes I have to, if I'm having a bad skin day, this coverage works best for me...To finish it off I spray some fix+ on a stippling brush and stipple it over my face...Works out great for me and my clients, especially those doing photoshoots. However, EVERY damn time I go to a MAC store and buy Studio fix powder and foundation at the same time, I get the same freaking speech about how you aren't supposed to use both products together. One MAC artist got in a damn argument with me about it and it ended with me telling her I know what's best for my skin and she should be more concerned with her own because she has a huge makeup line and her face and neck are two totally different shades.
Efionawade
Well-known member
Honestly, all I see is jealousy! The makeup industry is a competitive world! If you can't win, either keep trying or drop out! What's wrong with MAC artists working runways and stuff for little to nothing? If they want to do it, they are going to do it. If they didn't want to, they wouldn't!
Mabelle
Well-known member
This is the way it is in EVERY industry. Giant coporations making it harder for the little guy.
Chapters vs a local bookstore
Starbucks vs the local cafe
Gap vs a family run store
Mac is the big guy and the independent MUA is the little guy.
That's reality. They can bitch and whine all they please, but that's life. It's not like MAC is the only company doing this.
Chapters vs a local bookstore
Starbucks vs the local cafe
Gap vs a family run store
Mac is the big guy and the independent MUA is the little guy.
That's reality. They can bitch and whine all they please, but that's life. It's not like MAC is the only company doing this.
BrushStroke
Member
Well I've never done fashion week and haven't the desire to do so. I hear it's very stressful and know many who have gone through the grueling certification to be able to do so. MAC does not just send anyone to do these shows as they need to execute superior skills out of the gate in very fast times. I can't really comment on other issues between MAC and MUA's involving these shows as I've never participated.
What I can say is this....I have an extensive art background and have always considered myself a good makeup artist. MAC has given me the insight and the training to be really very good at what I do. Taught me the talents I needed to create beautiful dimensional art, correction and rebalancing of facial features and execution of diverse application and placement techniques. The skills I have developed have allowed me to charge rates which rival that of attorneys and then some per hour. So any freelancer can do the same. The rate you charge is determined by the talent you've acquired. I happen to be a type A personality and strive for as close to perfection as I can get.
As far as the comments about Studio Fix powder....It really isn't meant to be used all day long to touch up with. I do however, use it to finish off certain clients (even after using a liquid foundation) to offer a little more coverage and always applied with a brush (not the enclosed sponge). I believe that if one practices good skin care and keeps the skin balanced, your makeup should last throughout the day without the necessity to touch up. I have oily skin and keep it well moisturized to inhibit excess oil production. My makeup goes on early in the day and lasts. I do not carry makeup with me other than lipstick and do not touch up either. I must say it's wonderful to do it right the first time and not be a slave to a mirror.
What I can say is this....I have an extensive art background and have always considered myself a good makeup artist. MAC has given me the insight and the training to be really very good at what I do. Taught me the talents I needed to create beautiful dimensional art, correction and rebalancing of facial features and execution of diverse application and placement techniques. The skills I have developed have allowed me to charge rates which rival that of attorneys and then some per hour. So any freelancer can do the same. The rate you charge is determined by the talent you've acquired. I happen to be a type A personality and strive for as close to perfection as I can get.
As far as the comments about Studio Fix powder....It really isn't meant to be used all day long to touch up with. I do however, use it to finish off certain clients (even after using a liquid foundation) to offer a little more coverage and always applied with a brush (not the enclosed sponge). I believe that if one practices good skin care and keeps the skin balanced, your makeup should last throughout the day without the necessity to touch up. I have oily skin and keep it well moisturized to inhibit excess oil production. My makeup goes on early in the day and lasts. I do not carry makeup with me other than lipstick and do not touch up either. I must say it's wonderful to do it right the first time and not be a slave to a mirror.
ChrisMakeupMan
Member
wow I havent been back here in ages.
Interesting to see what everyone thinks about this.
I am a professional MUA working in NY. I will say this It's been over 6 years since I picked up a MAC product, or anything estee lauder, and I havent missed it. I'm not whining or complaining. Makeup is subjective, and up to the individual user.
I know what works for me and what doesnt. MAC does not work for me there for I do not use it plain and simple.
But you have to admit ther are some benfits to this movement. MAC employees dont have to make and AUS or IPT goal anymore, last I checked. Thanks to this movment making that rediculousness public.
To see a products worth just check the ingredients, there are so many fillers and parabens in most of mac foundations which is what causes irritation on most skins. and has been everyones complaint with them. again this is subjective and you can use whatever you like. I would check out www.cosmeticsdatabase.com and look up MAC , you will be very surprised.
http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/brand.php?brand_id=322
To most of you that say well thats the way big business works. It works because you feed into it. they got you ,excuse my french, by the b@lls, coming out with "new" limited edition products sending everyone rushing to get the latest and newest thing. It's clever marketing. Pro artists need brands to be reliable, to have the product they want everytime they come back. which is why to me MAC is no longer a pro brand its a consumer brand with the illusion of being pro. Of course this is my opinion and we are all entitled to our opinions otherwise public forums wouldnt exist!
So if we stopped feeding into the big businesses well they wouldn't be big anymore would they?
OUr industry is competative enough as it is, how are we to compete with a big corporation as well, when they really have no need to.
Believe what you want. Use what you want. I'm posting just to make you think about it.
Thanks for listening
Interesting to see what everyone thinks about this.
I am a professional MUA working in NY. I will say this It's been over 6 years since I picked up a MAC product, or anything estee lauder, and I havent missed it. I'm not whining or complaining. Makeup is subjective, and up to the individual user.
I know what works for me and what doesnt. MAC does not work for me there for I do not use it plain and simple.
But you have to admit ther are some benfits to this movement. MAC employees dont have to make and AUS or IPT goal anymore, last I checked. Thanks to this movment making that rediculousness public.
To see a products worth just check the ingredients, there are so many fillers and parabens in most of mac foundations which is what causes irritation on most skins. and has been everyones complaint with them. again this is subjective and you can use whatever you like. I would check out www.cosmeticsdatabase.com and look up MAC , you will be very surprised.
http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/brand.php?brand_id=322
To most of you that say well thats the way big business works. It works because you feed into it. they got you ,excuse my french, by the b@lls, coming out with "new" limited edition products sending everyone rushing to get the latest and newest thing. It's clever marketing. Pro artists need brands to be reliable, to have the product they want everytime they come back. which is why to me MAC is no longer a pro brand its a consumer brand with the illusion of being pro. Of course this is my opinion and we are all entitled to our opinions otherwise public forums wouldnt exist!
So if we stopped feeding into the big businesses well they wouldn't be big anymore would they?
OUr industry is competative enough as it is, how are we to compete with a big corporation as well, when they really have no need to.
Believe what you want. Use what you want. I'm posting just to make you think about it.
Thanks for listening
ms.marymac
Well-known member
^^Very well said. They brought back the AUS expectation, though.
ChrisMakeupMan
Member
Quote:
Did they? well that sucks ... i had a feeling that wouldn't last to long. They need something to hold over their employee's heads. are brands under the Estee lauder umbrella the only ones with these goals? I've freelanced for a number of different lines and none had AUS/IPT just a sales goal.
| Originally Posted by ms.marymac
^^Very well said. They brought back the AUS expectation, though.
|
Did they? well that sucks ... i had a feeling that wouldn't last to long. They need something to hold over their employee's heads. are brands under the Estee lauder umbrella the only ones with these goals? I've freelanced for a number of different lines and none had AUS/IPT just a sales goal.
Leven
Well-known member
I have to agree with what ChrisMakeupMan said above, i dont think that MAC is a very pro oriented product.
Tha being said i have seen pros such as Pat Mcgrath use a few of their products (mainly pigments/glitters) as evidenced here:
Im not trying to say that MAC is the only things professionals use. But its not a brand that they seem to completely dismiss. I dont believe they use MAC as much as MAC would want people to believe they do. You can see other brands such as MUFE and Il Makiage on the table as well.
Tha being said i have seen pros such as Pat Mcgrath use a few of their products (mainly pigments/glitters) as evidenced here:
Im not trying to say that MAC is the only things professionals use. But its not a brand that they seem to completely dismiss. I dont believe they use MAC as much as MAC would want people to believe they do. You can see other brands such as MUFE and Il Makiage on the table as well.
ms.marymac
Well-known member
Quote:
I think other Lauder brands such as Clinique have at least an IPT goal, but I am not sure. I have a few friends that work for non Lauder brands and they only have sales goals.
| Originally Posted by ChrisMakeupMan
Did they? well that sucks ... i had a feeling that wouldn't last to long. They need something to hold over their employee's heads. are brands under the Estee lauder umbrella the only ones with these goals? I've freelanced for a number of different lines and none had AUS/IPT just a sales goal. |
I think other Lauder brands such as Clinique have at least an IPT goal, but I am not sure. I have a few friends that work for non Lauder brands and they only have sales goals.
boudoirblonde
Well-known member
Quote:
If AUS=Average unit per sale, then yes other brands do have them.
I (used to) work for Dior, our AUS target was 1.91
| Originally Posted by ChrisMakeupMan
Did they? well that sucks ... i had a feeling that wouldn't last to long. They need something to hold over their employee's heads. are brands under the Estee lauder umbrella the only ones with these goals? I've freelanced for a number of different lines and none had AUS/IPT just a sales goal. |
If AUS=Average unit per sale, then yes other brands do have them.
I (used to) work for Dior, our AUS target was 1.91
User27
Well-known member
Only a consumer but I've had too many products shoved on me by girls working counters. I love that they push any product despite it not looking good on me as a "this would work so well with your skin tone" or this "would stand out so well". The worst colors imaginable for me that I would never be able to pull off. I love people who tell me "no, that is way too bright of a blush for you" or this "isn't the right product" instead of worrying about a sale. Just my two sense, I understand quotas but wouldn't it be better to have a return customer over a feeling of me being deceived to sell a product and realize it when I get home?
I have noticed a big change since Estee Lauder took over...like I never know the people at the counters any more and I get bombarded with product offers that would not work with me at all. If I choose the products out that make me look like $hit than that's my own fault but don't aid the cause by telling me I can pull off a color I can't. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It's terrible but I love the people at my CCO because they'll be there 6 months later and have less of a sales pitch attitude...place makes more money off me now because of that too. I'm not saying every counter person is like this but the past couple of years has gone downhill...makes me wish we had an II3rinII or a Bunnyx3 here but we can't always get what we want. Sorry but I saw what the girl posted above about straight from the trainers' mouth and I believe her fully...it's better to make the sale with a white lie than have no sale at all.
Sad but I've stood by MAC to the point I know no other brand really; there's loyalty for you. OT If someone knows a good foundation, let me know because I've been using theirs for ages despite the ordeal that is me fighting dry skin around my nose and cheek area...would greatly appreciate it.
I have noticed a big change since Estee Lauder took over...like I never know the people at the counters any more and I get bombarded with product offers that would not work with me at all. If I choose the products out that make me look like $hit than that's my own fault but don't aid the cause by telling me I can pull off a color I can't. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It's terrible but I love the people at my CCO because they'll be there 6 months later and have less of a sales pitch attitude...place makes more money off me now because of that too. I'm not saying every counter person is like this but the past couple of years has gone downhill...makes me wish we had an II3rinII or a Bunnyx3 here but we can't always get what we want. Sorry but I saw what the girl posted above about straight from the trainers' mouth and I believe her fully...it's better to make the sale with a white lie than have no sale at all.
Sad but I've stood by MAC to the point I know no other brand really; there's loyalty for you. OT If someone knows a good foundation, let me know because I've been using theirs for ages despite the ordeal that is me fighting dry skin around my nose and cheek area...would greatly appreciate it.
nliedel
Member
Despite the controversy, and yes, MAC is pushing out freelancers in certain cities, I'm using some of the products in my kit. Why? Some I like and some my brides expect. I'm not a fan of their new marketing techniques, but it's pretty much all after the EL takover and I refuse to see it as part of that brand. I will buy MAC, but not EL, since they are the ones who made the crap-tastic changes.
Nej
Member
Hmm, very interesting issue. I think the issue here is that some of their business practices have changed and are now going against some of the guiding principles that the company started with. I'm not going to boycott them as I love some of their products and if I boycotted every company that used some unethical business practices then I'd be living in the woods using rose petals to stain my lips.
Maybe it's the MAC stores in my area but I completely agree with their assessment of the type of people MAC hires. They seem to either fall into 2 categories, extrememlly beautiful people who are good at doing their own make-up or those that apply it garishly in a way that's not fit for day-to-day wear. Either way I see MAC employees more as product experts and not as true make-up artist. They always kind of sigh and seem annoyed when I ask for their opinion on what colour etc. would work for me .. shouldn't a true artist be able to do that? Isn't that part of a MUA's training?
I'm not saying that there aren't MAC MUA's who are true artists I'm just saying that from MY experience those aren't the type of people they hire.
I truly sympathize with true MUA's who are unable to compete and feel that substandard people are taking their jobs. Especially when it's being done in a shady and underhanded manner. Unfortunately that's life when it comes to big business and I applaud them for standing their ground.
Maybe it's the MAC stores in my area but I completely agree with their assessment of the type of people MAC hires. They seem to either fall into 2 categories, extrememlly beautiful people who are good at doing their own make-up or those that apply it garishly in a way that's not fit for day-to-day wear. Either way I see MAC employees more as product experts and not as true make-up artist. They always kind of sigh and seem annoyed when I ask for their opinion on what colour etc. would work for me .. shouldn't a true artist be able to do that? Isn't that part of a MUA's training?
I'm not saying that there aren't MAC MUA's who are true artists I'm just saying that from MY experience those aren't the type of people they hire.
I truly sympathize with true MUA's who are unable to compete and feel that substandard people are taking their jobs. Especially when it's being done in a shady and underhanded manner. Unfortunately that's life when it comes to big business and I applaud them for standing their ground.
LC
Well-known member
This topic is weird to me. I've both worked for them before, and I currently work for myself as a full time makeup artist, and I've never felt like they take away jobs in the industry...ever. Estee Lauder took over the financial aspect of MAC, they have no say in their products and ways. If they did, their stuff would be crappy just like estee lauder, clinique, etc...
ChrisMakeupMan
Member
Quote:
If you think Estee Lauder has no say in their products you are 100% wrong.
that is the problem with Estee lauder buying out cosmetic companies. This all started because of the EL buyout. they changed the product watered it down. and made it what it is today. A watered down consumer driven version of the original. Which is now in the same category as yes the cliniques and estee lauder brands. Now they bought smashbox expect the same thing to happen to them.
| Originally Posted by LC
This topic is weird to me. I've both worked for them before, and I currently work for myself as a full time makeup artist, and I've never felt like they take away jobs in the industry...ever. Estee Lauder took over the financial aspect of MAC, they have no say in their products and ways. If they did, their stuff would be crappy just like estee lauder, clinique, etc... |
If you think Estee Lauder has no say in their products you are 100% wrong.
that is the problem with Estee lauder buying out cosmetic companies. This all started because of the EL buyout. they changed the product watered it down. and made it what it is today. A watered down consumer driven version of the original. Which is now in the same category as yes the cliniques and estee lauder brands. Now they bought smashbox expect the same thing to happen to them.
