Middle Eastern Society

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amoona

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
It's not empowering when you don't have a choice to do anything but cover up.
We're not talking about voluntary concealment, we're talking about countries, tribes, villages, shacks, tents, families, whatever, where it's required or the woman is shamed, beaten, stoned, or killed because she didn't cover up as she was told to.

How...where...where, in that situation, does the woman have a choice?


I was talking about voluntary covering because that's what Raerae was discussing, she did say "voluntary".
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
It's not empowering when you don't have a choice to do anything but cover up.
We're not talking about voluntary concealment, we're talking about countries, tribes, villages, shacks, tents, families, whatever, where it's required or the woman is shamed, beaten, stoned, or killed because she didn't cover up as she was told to.

How...where...where, in that situation, does the woman have a choice?


Yeh, i kinda noticed the change in direction a tad bit there too, hence one of my edits.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
I was talking about voluntary covering because that's what Raerae was discussing, she did say "voluntary".

I think we have two parts going in this thread too, now that I think about it.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
I was talking about voluntary covering because that's what Raerae was discussing, she did say "voluntary".

I'm curious about how it's empowering when there's NOT a choice.

When there's a requirement, with threat of death or dismemberment or pain or torture or humiliation, where does the woman have a choice to cover modestly? By implying there's a choice, one would have to assume the ability to say "No, I don't want to do that." would be a viable option.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
The Qur'an actually hasn't been editted and changed as the Bible has been. The Qur'an is in it's true form, the only exception is translations and when those are sold they're also sold with the true Arabic text on the opposite page of the English text. You cannot understand the Qur'an unless you read it in it's true form.

Question~

Do you know whats the oldest "known" version of the Qur'an currently? And how reflective are the versions on the shelf of that text. I have a hard time believeing that any book as old as that, hasn't been changed. Even if it wasn't "translated" into a different language, the interpretation of words could (probably has) been changed to strengthen the beliefs of the currently group in control. Not to mention, much of this probably started off as oral tradition, and we know how things change when the telephone game is played.
 

amoona

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
I'm curious about how it's empowering when there's NOT a choice.

When there's a requirement, with threat of death or dismemberment or pain or torture or humiliation, where does the woman have a choice to cover modestly? By implying there's a choice, one would have to assume the ability to say "No, I don't want to do that." would be a viable option.


And I'm curious where I said it was empowering for a women when she doesn't have a choice?! Like I said before, Iran and Saudi Arabia are the two ME countries that require it by law and those two governments are corrupt as all hell. How much money does the US pay off Saudi Arabia and how much money does Saudi Arabia pay off the US?! haha

Don't put words into my mouth because I never said that's empowering. A woman's choice to cover herself is empowering to her. A woman being forced is not ME culture or Islamic teachings.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
The only Middle Eastern countries that force a woman to dress a certain way are Iran and Saudi Arabia, it's not a culture thing or a religious thing. It's a "those government's are corrupt as hell" thing.

Perhaps legally, but culturally I'm sure many other places socially place pressure on women to cover. In pictures in the news in most places around the ME, most women are wearing some form of headscarf. Perhaps not a burka, but covering is fairly common.

Not to mention, if 9 other women are covered, it's pretty difficult to be the 10th girl who isn't. The, "all eyes on you" effect will probably make you cover just so you can avoid being stared at.
 

amoona

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
Question~

Do you know whats the oldest "known" version of the Qur'an currently? And how reflective are the versions on the shelf of that text. I have a hard time believeing that any book as old as that, hasn't been changed. Even if it wasn't "translated" into a different language, the interpretation of words could (probably has) been changed to strengthen the beliefs of the currently group in control. Not to mention, much of this probably started off as oral tradition, and we know how things change when the telephone game is played.


The first written Qur'an was actually sold in a Saudi auction they had to raise money for the Palestinian people, I think it was back in 2000. The TRUE Islamic Qur'an has not changed form since it was put into writing. That's why when things are translated into English it often doesn't make sense, or translate the same message. The teaching of Islam teach that any change to the Qur'an is a sin to God and is no longer the HOLY Qur'an.
 

amoona

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
Perhaps legally, but culturally I'm sure many other places socially place pressure on women to cover. In pictures in the news in most places around the ME, most women are wearing some form of headscarf. Perhaps not a burka, but covering is fairly common.

Not to mention, if 9 other women are covered, it's pretty difficult to be the 10th girl who isn't. The, "all eyes on you" effect will probably make you cover just so you can avoid being stared at.


Well then now you're just assuming that women cover because they see other women covering. I don't see it as a pressure, or else I would have covered my hair a long time ago. In high school three of my closes friends covered there hair and I still don't. I have A LOT of friends who cover their hair and I don't feel pressured to at all.

And trust me, watch Arabic TV and you don't see many women covering their hair at all. Watch an Arabic music video! Watch almost any show on Arabic TV and you'll rarely see a woman covering her hair.

Yes in the US they show most of the images of ME women as covered but that's not the case in the ME media at all.
 

Dark_Phoenix

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
The first written Qur'an was actually sold in a Saudi auction they had to raise money for the Palestinian people, I think it was back in 2000. The TRUE Islamic Qur'an has not changed form since it was put into writing. That's why when things are translated into English it often doesn't make sense, or translate the same message. The teaching of Islam teach that any change to the Qur'an is a sin to God and is no longer the HOLY Qur'an.

I agree. They still use the Qur'an in Classical Arabic in schools in Bahrain. The translations are not taken seriously in religious discussion. Many of the words have different shades of meaning when taken from one language to another and, as a result, the translator often changes alot of the text so it's unusable for discussion.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
And I'm curious where I said it was empowering for a women when she doesn't have a choice?! Like I said before, Iran and Saudi Arabia are the two ME countries that require it by law and those two governments are corrupt as all hell. How much money does the US pay off Saudi Arabia and how much money does Saudi Arabia pay off the US?! haha

Don't put words into my mouth because I never said that's empowering. A woman's choice to cover herself is empowering to her. A woman being forced is not ME culture or Islamic teachings.


Please don't become defensive. I did not attack you, nor did I belittle you.

Just because a country doesn't require a woman to cover doesn't necessarily mean that in the outlying provinces of that country, said female has the freedom to remain uncovered. It's pretty certain that different villages have different laws for females, and that females in those rural villages ARE required to cover, despite whatever the national law may say.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
The first written Qur'an was actually sold in a Saudi auction they had to raise money for the Palestinian people, I think it was back in 2000. The TRUE Islamic Qur'an has not changed form since it was put into writing. That's why when things are translated into English it often doesn't make sense, or translate the same message. The teaching of Islam teach that any change to the Qur'an is a sin to God and is no longer the HOLY Qur'an.

Right I'm asking about the, "TRUE" version. Not the english translation. Just to clarify.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
Well then now you're just assuming that women cover because they see other women covering. I don't see it as a pressure, or else I would have covered my hair a long time ago. In high school three of my closes friends covered there hair and I still don't. I have A LOT of friends who cover their hair and I don't feel pressured to at all.

The social pressure to cover in the states doesn't compare in any way shape or form to that of the areas in the states were every woman wears a headscarf or more. People who cover their hair in the US are if anything the minority. So there isn't much pressure to do so, unless your, "trying to fit in" with a group.

Quote:
And trust me, watch Arabic TV and you don't see many women covering their hair at all. Watch an Arabic music video! Watch almost any show on Arabic TV and you'll rarely see a woman covering her hair.

Yes in the US they show most of the images of ME women as covered but that's not the case in the ME media at all.

Your steering the conversation away again though. This isn't about people like you who are of arabic descent/culture living in the states. There really isn't any pressureto cover in the states. If anything, the social pressure is opposite, and is pushing you towards not covering. And as far as Arabic TV/Music Video's again, this isn't about the liberal areas of the ME. Or women who cover because they are "resisting western culture."

We're speaking of the more socially conservative states. As well as the idea that covering is done in situations to prevent "objectification" by men. And as Emma Frost was speaking about being treated as a person while being covered, and not as a sex object when not. Just to clarify, as I think while similar, were on two seperate tangents, which is why their is a little confusion.

Although I am interested in the other reasons for covering, as I do find them interesting.
 

amoona

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
Please don't become defensive. I did not attack you, nor did I belittle you.

Just because a country doesn't require a woman to cover doesn't necessarily mean that in the outlying provinces of that country, said female has the freedom to remain uncovered. It's pretty certain that different villages have different laws for females, and that females in those rural villages ARE required to cover, despite whatever the national law may say.


Nobody is getting defensive lol. What villages are you talking about?! You expect an entire culture to take blame for some villages that nobody knows of?! Why is it the popular idea that every woman who covers up is forced to. That's called orientalisim, like I said earlier read the book. There's a triology to the book too, the last book is about Islam you might wanna check it out too. Turn off CNN and FOX news!
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
Nobody is getting defensive lol. What villages are you talking about?! You expect an entire culture to take blame for some villages that nobody knows of?! Why is it the popular idea that every woman who covers up is forced to. That's called orientalisim, like I said earlier read the book. There's a triology to the book too, the last book is about Islam you might wanna check it out too. Turn off CNN and FOX news!

I think not to far of a leap of faith to think that the more rural you go, the more conservative the culture is going to be. That tends to be that case in pretty much every culture.
 

amoona

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
The social pressure to cover in the states doesn't compare in any way shape or form to that of the areas in the states were every woman wears a headscarf or more. People who cover their hair in the US are if anything the minority. So there isn't much pressure to do so, unless your, "trying to fit in" with a group.

How do you know that?! Who said that it's all social pressure there?! Like I said it's far from social pressure, if anything there's a social pressure to be "sexier". What country did you live in where it was the social pressure?! There's a social pressure to drink and do drugs in this country, doesn't mean that everyone does it and it doesn't mean that every who does do it is doing it because of the social pressure. They might just want to do it.

All I can do is tell you about my personal experiences as a ME woman and as some who has lived in the ME. You still want to stick to what you think it's like so go for it.

[QUOTE}Your steering the conversation away again though. This isn't about people like you who are of arabic descent/culture living in the states. There really isn't any pressureto cover in the states. If anything, the social pressure is opposite, and is pushing you towards not covering. And as far as Arabic TV/Music Video's again, this isn't about the liberal areas of the ME. Or women who cover because they are "resisting western culture."

We're speaking of the more socially conservative states. As well as the idea that covering is done in situations to prevent "objectification" by men. And as Emma Frost was speaking about being treated as a person while being covered, and not as a sex object when not. Just to clarify, as I think while similar, were on two seperate tangents, which is why their is a little confusion.

Although I am interested in the other reasons for covering, as I do find them interesting.[/quote]

I'm not only speaking about my experiences in the US, I'm speaking about my experiences living in the culture in the ME! You guys keep bringing up these conservative states and we already addressed that. Iran and Saudi Arabia - that's that. And just to let you know there's a huge trend in Iran that was jokingly named "Hijab-hottie". Women who cover their hair because it's law but wear tighter then tight pants, show cleavage, and hell show more skin then me haha.

The social majority is NOT pressuring women to cover their hair or cover up at all. What conservative states are you speaking of because as far as I know, from living there and visiting constantly, the only two are Iran and Saudi Arabia.
 

amoona

Well-known member
Shimmer, your speaking of who?! What rural poor villages?! Because guess what my dad's family is from one of those rural poor villages, old school as you get. NOBODY is forced or pressured into covering their hair. Half of my cousins do, the other half don't.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
I think not to far of a leap of faith to think that the more rural you go, the more conservative the culture is going to be. That tends to be that case in pretty much every culture.

I think that's a fair and accurate assessment.
 

amoona

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
I think not to far of a leap of faith to think that the more rural you go, the more conservative the culture is going to be. That tends to be that case in pretty much every culture.

Then why is the entire ME culture being blamed for what you guys claim to be rural practices yet the US isn't blamed for their rural practices?! Like I said to Shimmer, my father's family comes from the most rural poor village in Palestine you can think of. He also has family who escaped Israeli oppression and live in a very rural village in Jordan. No pressure to cover up.

EDIT - I have to go to work but before I do I just wanted to add that I'm not saying NOBODY is pressured. But it's not a common thing, and it's not a rural village thing. If people are pressured they are pressured by their own family. You can't expect the ME culture to answer for families and how they grow up. I can't speak on any family pressuring anyone to cover up becaue I have never lived this, it's not a cultural or religious thing. It's not what is represented in our culture or religion and it's so anti-everything that has to do with ME pop culture as well.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
Shimmer, your speaking of who?! What rural poor villages?! Because guess what my dad's family is from one of those rural poor villages, old school as you get. NOBODY is forced or pressured into covering their hair. Half of my cousins do, the other half don't.

You know what, you're right.
Our mistake.
We silly westerners have no concept of what we're talking about.
What could we be thinking???? After all we're obviously completely off base.

Our bad.
 
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