claresauntie
Well-known member
Actually, I think it sounds more "Deep Thought-y" to me. But I'm not trying to make a stink, just saying I agree with the OP.
Pondering Racial Connotations of "Lightful"
- Thread starter Me220
- Start date
- Status
OnaFyre
Well-known member
I'm glad someone brought up the issues of race and Lightful. I'm disappointed that the discussion is dominated by those who rail against talking about issues of race but then seem to spend a lot of time talking about the issue of race not being an issue, but I'm glad the conversation is happening.
I think it's also important to recognize the context of Western dominance and global white privilege and supremacy (these are technical terms, and I don't use them lightly-wow, that's a bad pun) in which Lightful was created. There are also the overlapping and divergent issues of white privilege, white-skin privilege, and light-skin privilege. I think this is what differentiates this issue from very pale women because they still fall within a notion of Western idealized beauty. I also think the issue of tanning and bronzing is different because (in American culture) it becomes more of a class issue than a race issue, but we can talk about that later.
I think Me220 (correct me if I am wrong) is asking us to consider Lightful in this context. But it seems many of the responders refuse to do so and won't engage in this conversation and would rather see it simply as makeup. Considering that the intent of this thread was to discuss this issue, I'm not sure if it is helpful to have so much of the conversation centered around it's worthiness as a topic in general because it kills the conversation before it can start.
I think it's also important to recognize the context of Western dominance and global white privilege and supremacy (these are technical terms, and I don't use them lightly-wow, that's a bad pun) in which Lightful was created. There are also the overlapping and divergent issues of white privilege, white-skin privilege, and light-skin privilege. I think this is what differentiates this issue from very pale women because they still fall within a notion of Western idealized beauty. I also think the issue of tanning and bronzing is different because (in American culture) it becomes more of a class issue than a race issue, but we can talk about that later.
I think Me220 (correct me if I am wrong) is asking us to consider Lightful in this context. But it seems many of the responders refuse to do so and won't engage in this conversation and would rather see it simply as makeup. Considering that the intent of this thread was to discuss this issue, I'm not sure if it is helpful to have so much of the conversation centered around it's worthiness as a topic in general because it kills the conversation before it can start.
Shimmer
Well-known member
I think, for me at least, it's the tedium that comes from every. single. thing. having "racial implications and connotations". Every ad. Every makeup release. Every product. Every movie every thought process every casting decision. Everything. When Barbie was released it was "Where's the black Barbie doll?" and "Why does this collection only seem like something for white girls?"...with Danse it was "OMG AnOTHER collection for white girls and their pale skin"...
By no stretch of the imagination am I saying that racism doesn't exist.
By no stretch of the imagination am I saying there isn't a standard of beauty that's difficult for all women to adhere to and aspire to.
But not everything has racial connotations.
Look at Beyonce and Tyra. Both proclaim (loudly, I might add) to be strong black women who have been successful in life. I'll agree to their success but...
Both keep their skin to a caramel color (the color white girls aspire to while tanning), both keep their REAL hair under wraps and wear wigs (sometimes better quality than others), both have had cosmetic surgery to Anglicize their features.
Flip that now, and look at Jessica Simpson and Angelina Jolie.
You can find old pictures of Jolie and compare them to new ones and see that she's had extremely fine tuned cosmetic surgery, including having her upper lip plumped and her nose refined. Jessica Simpson had the infamous restylan (restalyne?) debacle in attempts to have more pouty lips. THere are literally HUNDREDS of lip plumping products on the market that promise to make the kisser more prominent. BOTH have heavy breasted frames, and Jessica Simpson has lamented that she has a "white girl booty" and wants "a ghetto butt".
The standard of beauty isn't white.
Nor is it black.
It's not Asian either.
It's somewhere in the middle of it all.
And, if we're making changes in ourselves because we WANT to, FOR ourselves, and not because someone else told us to...what's wrong with all of us wanting to be on middle ground?
By no stretch of the imagination am I saying that racism doesn't exist.
By no stretch of the imagination am I saying there isn't a standard of beauty that's difficult for all women to adhere to and aspire to.
But not everything has racial connotations.
Look at Beyonce and Tyra. Both proclaim (loudly, I might add) to be strong black women who have been successful in life. I'll agree to their success but...
Both keep their skin to a caramel color (the color white girls aspire to while tanning), both keep their REAL hair under wraps and wear wigs (sometimes better quality than others), both have had cosmetic surgery to Anglicize their features.
Flip that now, and look at Jessica Simpson and Angelina Jolie.
You can find old pictures of Jolie and compare them to new ones and see that she's had extremely fine tuned cosmetic surgery, including having her upper lip plumped and her nose refined. Jessica Simpson had the infamous restylan (restalyne?) debacle in attempts to have more pouty lips. THere are literally HUNDREDS of lip plumping products on the market that promise to make the kisser more prominent. BOTH have heavy breasted frames, and Jessica Simpson has lamented that she has a "white girl booty" and wants "a ghetto butt".
The standard of beauty isn't white.
Nor is it black.
It's not Asian either.
It's somewhere in the middle of it all.
And, if we're making changes in ourselves because we WANT to, FOR ourselves, and not because someone else told us to...what's wrong with all of us wanting to be on middle ground?
OnaFyre
Well-known member
Quote:
Then why continue to engage in the discussion?
And for the record, I have Angelina Jolie's lips and I'm called a monkey. I have Jessica Simpson's wished for butt, and I'm called "the fat black one, you know..." And that's the difference. For them it is a boon, for me it is a curse. My beauty is not valued, and as long as people don't understand why those lips and butt are different for me than those celebrities, then my beauty will never be valued.
Originally Posted by Shimmer
I think, for me at least, it's the tedium that comes from every. single. thing. having "racial implications and connotations". Every ad. Every makeup release. Every product. Every movie every thought process every casting decision. Everything. When Barbie was released it was "Where's the black Barbie doll?" and "Why does this collection only seem like something for white girls?"...with Danse it was "OMG AnOTHER collection for white girls and their pale skin"... |
Then why continue to engage in the discussion?
And for the record, I have Angelina Jolie's lips and I'm called a monkey. I have Jessica Simpson's wished for butt, and I'm called "the fat black one, you know..." And that's the difference. For them it is a boon, for me it is a curse. My beauty is not valued, and as long as people don't understand why those lips and butt are different for me than those celebrities, then my beauty will never be valued.
ARmakeupjunkie
Well-known member
I think what Shimmer was saying about Tyra and Beyonce is a great example of why this thread was started.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Do you value your beauty?
Does your significant other value it?
Do you define yourself by those things?
You're called the fat black one?
What about the girls who are called the ugly pale ones? Or the skinny pale ones? Or the girls who have pillow lips who are called blowfish and fishface? They're white, but they're ostracized too. Does the fact they're white invalidate their feelings? Or, does the fact that another woman who has the same traits is black make her feelings more important, different, or valid?
Why continue to engage in the discussion? Because honestly it gets old hearing people complain about being born _____ race and because they were born _____ color people don't ______ like they should. You and I were born the same way, naked and screaming and we'll both go into a pinebox or an urn.
I don't need a black man or woman to tell me s/he's black. I already know that. I have eyes. That doesn't affect me.
I don't need a white man or woman to tell me s/he's white. I already know it. I can see.
I don't need a latin, hispanic, asian, mediterranean, or indian person to tell me what race they are. I can see it.
Everytime a collection comes out, hearing the OMG THEY'RE EXCLUDING ____________________________ AGAIN!!! is tiresome, and, judging based on both the recent Danse and Barbie collections and their popularity, exceedingly inaccurate.
Does your significant other value it?
Do you define yourself by those things?
You're called the fat black one?
What about the girls who are called the ugly pale ones? Or the skinny pale ones? Or the girls who have pillow lips who are called blowfish and fishface? They're white, but they're ostracized too. Does the fact they're white invalidate their feelings? Or, does the fact that another woman who has the same traits is black make her feelings more important, different, or valid?
Why continue to engage in the discussion? Because honestly it gets old hearing people complain about being born _____ race and because they were born _____ color people don't ______ like they should. You and I were born the same way, naked and screaming and we'll both go into a pinebox or an urn.
I don't need a black man or woman to tell me s/he's black. I already know that. I have eyes. That doesn't affect me.
I don't need a white man or woman to tell me s/he's white. I already know it. I can see.
I don't need a latin, hispanic, asian, mediterranean, or indian person to tell me what race they are. I can see it.
Everytime a collection comes out, hearing the OMG THEY'RE EXCLUDING ____________________________ AGAIN!!! is tiresome, and, judging based on both the recent Danse and Barbie collections and their popularity, exceedingly inaccurate.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
Ok, but what about the white girls who get lip injections to have bigger lips? And the white and Asian girls who get buttock implants to have a butt like Venus or Serena's? What about the white girls who spend 20 minutes a day everyday in a tanning bed trying to tan to a darker complexion?
It's not just about Beyonce and Tyra, it's about those other girls too. If ONE group is going to proclaim that the image of beauty is different from the reality we live in, all groups who aspire to be something other than what they are naturally must be included.
| Originally Posted by ARmakeupjunkie
I think what Shimmer was saying about Tyra and Beyonce is a great example of why this thread was started. |
Ok, but what about the white girls who get lip injections to have bigger lips? And the white and Asian girls who get buttock implants to have a butt like Venus or Serena's? What about the white girls who spend 20 minutes a day everyday in a tanning bed trying to tan to a darker complexion?
It's not just about Beyonce and Tyra, it's about those other girls too. If ONE group is going to proclaim that the image of beauty is different from the reality we live in, all groups who aspire to be something other than what they are naturally must be included.
OnaFyre
Well-known member
Quote:
I think its also fair to say that this is the internal conversation that some, by no means all, people of color go through on a regular/daily/hourly/ minute by minuet (especially in the workplace) basis. We are constantly confronted with issues that make us question our place and self worth in this culture, and those questions are often linked to our racial identities. I'm not sure if that is something easily understood. But it is a constant thought process for some people. Luckily, I've studied it academically and can channel it or turn it off, but some people can't. And there are so many people who have the luxury of never having to think about it at all.
I think we all just got comfortable here at Specktra as a place to air some of that publicly with other people of color who are interested in makeup, but perhaps Specktra isn't a safe place for that...
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
I think, for me at least, it's the tedium that comes from every. single. thing. having "racial implications and connotations". Every ad. Every makeup release. Every product. Every movie every thought process every casting decision. Everything. When Barbie was released it was "Where's the black Barbie doll?" and "Why does this collection only seem like something for white girls?"...with Danse it was "OMG AnOTHER collection for white girls and their pale skin"... |
I think its also fair to say that this is the internal conversation that some, by no means all, people of color go through on a regular/daily/hourly/ minute by minuet (especially in the workplace) basis. We are constantly confronted with issues that make us question our place and self worth in this culture, and those questions are often linked to our racial identities. I'm not sure if that is something easily understood. But it is a constant thought process for some people. Luckily, I've studied it academically and can channel it or turn it off, but some people can't. And there are so many people who have the luxury of never having to think about it at all.
I think we all just got comfortable here at Specktra as a place to air some of that publicly with other people of color who are interested in makeup, but perhaps Specktra isn't a safe place for that...
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
Honestly, I think Specktra and its owners/administrators work really really hard to make it as even and NONracial a place as possible. I think the staff is multicultural, multiethnic, multisocioeconomic level, and extremely varied in its levels of worldly sophistication. Given such a diverse staff, I believe the site endeavors to create a truly working and whole environment.
Being mods doesn't preclude any of us from having an opinion on a subject though, provided it's presented respectfully and within the TOS of the site.
| Originally Posted by OnaFyre
I think we all just got comfortable here at Specktra as a place to air some of that publicly with other people of color who are interested in makeup, but perhaps Specktra isn't a safe place for that... |
Honestly, I think Specktra and its owners/administrators work really really hard to make it as even and NONracial a place as possible. I think the staff is multicultural, multiethnic, multisocioeconomic level, and extremely varied in its levels of worldly sophistication. Given such a diverse staff, I believe the site endeavors to create a truly working and whole environment.
Being mods doesn't preclude any of us from having an opinion on a subject though, provided it's presented respectfully and within the TOS of the site.
ARmakeupjunkie
Well-known member
Quote:
I have to agree with you 110%.
| Originally Posted by OnaFyre
I think its also fair to say that this is the internal conversation that some, by no means all, people of color go through on a regular/daily/hourly/ minute by minuet (especially in the workplace) basis. We are constantly confronted with issues that make us question our place and self worth in this culture, and those questions are often linked to our racial identities. I'm not sure if that is something easily understood. But it is a constant thought process for some people. Luckily, I've studied it academically and can channel it or turn it off, but some people can't. And there are so many people who have the luxury of never having to think about it at all. I think we all just got comfortable here at Specktra as a place to air some of that publicly with other people of color who are interested in makeup, but perhaps Specktra isn't a safe place for that... |
I have to agree with you 110%.
OnaFyre
Well-known member
Quote:
First off, I don't think it is at all appropriate for you to personally call me out and ask me these really personal questions in a public forum this way. But, my own estimation of my beauty, while high, doesn't really matter in the world I live in. Others opinions definitely matter when it comes to jobs, romantic relationships, and my interactions with police, to name a few, and those peoples opinions are often shaded by their thoughts on black people and people of other races in general.
I'm also not in the business of judging or assessing value to others suffering and pain. I just know that mine is often times linked to systematic oppression and racism, and frankly it sucks.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
Do you value your beauty? Does your significant other value it? Do you define yourself by those things? You're called the fat black one? What about the girls who are called the ugly pale ones? Or the skinny pale ones? Or the girls who have pillow lips who are called blowfish and fishface? They're white, but they're ostracized too. Does the fact they're white invalidate their feelings? Or, does the fact that another woman who has the same traits is black make her feelings more important, different, or valid? |
First off, I don't think it is at all appropriate for you to personally call me out and ask me these really personal questions in a public forum this way. But, my own estimation of my beauty, while high, doesn't really matter in the world I live in. Others opinions definitely matter when it comes to jobs, romantic relationships, and my interactions with police, to name a few, and those peoples opinions are often shaded by their thoughts on black people and people of other races in general.
I'm also not in the business of judging or assessing value to others suffering and pain. I just know that mine is often times linked to systematic oppression and racism, and frankly it sucks.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
I didn't ask you those things to have you answer them publicly, only to inspire introspection.
Please don't assume that racism only applies to non-whites, as that isn't the case. And, you're right, racism DOES suck. It sucks for every single person...black, white, indian, native American, asian, hispanic, whatever...it happens to. But is the answer really going to be found by sitting around and pointing out all the inequities of the world? Or is the answer going to be found by saying "Hey, y'know what? That's not for me." and moving onward?
MAC, for example, will hear the sound of the wallets of non caucasian women across the world locking closed a WHOLE lot faster than it'll hear the voices of people complaining but doing nothing about the subject of their complaints.
| Originally Posted by OnaFyre
First off, I don't think it is at all appropriate for you to personally call me out and ask me these really personal questions in a public forum this way. But, my own estimation of my beauty, while high, doesn't really matter in the world I live in. Others opinions definitely matter when it comes to jobs, romantic relationships, and my interactions with police, to name a few, and those peoples opinions are often shaded by their thoughts on black people and people of other races in general. I'm also not in the business of judging or assessing value to others suffering and pain. I just know that mine is often times linked to systematic oppression and racism, and frankly it sucks. |
I didn't ask you those things to have you answer them publicly, only to inspire introspection.
Please don't assume that racism only applies to non-whites, as that isn't the case. And, you're right, racism DOES suck. It sucks for every single person...black, white, indian, native American, asian, hispanic, whatever...it happens to. But is the answer really going to be found by sitting around and pointing out all the inequities of the world? Or is the answer going to be found by saying "Hey, y'know what? That's not for me." and moving onward?
MAC, for example, will hear the sound of the wallets of non caucasian women across the world locking closed a WHOLE lot faster than it'll hear the voices of people complaining but doing nothing about the subject of their complaints.
sharyn
Well-known member
want your beauty to be valuated?!
I received a gift card for a tanning salon (50 Euro worth.)
I am very allergic to direct sunlight.
5 Minutes in the sun = me no good.
Now, I could have taken this as an offence.
Tell ppl I want representation.
Tell them to value my beauty.
tell them they're being racist for wanting to make me look like everybody else.
I did not.
I said thank you and gave the card to my friend, who likes tanning.
Shruged it off.
I have been called all kinds of things and most ppl do assume i'm plain stupid (yesssss, theres a blonde and she wears lots of make up plus shes got double D breast - she cant have a brain!). But I do not care. I do not care that I havent yet seen a blonde bombshell playing the smart lawyer in TV. I do not care that 95% of the make up out there isnt for me. And when ppl tell me I look like cottage cheese or just plain disgusting with my "effking goth skin", I shrug it off. I do not need to be valued by MAC, cosmetic companies, movies or magazines. My family does that for me. And I do. I love the way I look. and I love the way my NW 40 asian friend looks. I do not think that it is necessary that every single movie, company etc. represents me.
Why do you need to find yourself in every single collection? (just for the rec.: most of my white friends do not find themeselves in every collection... it happens to everybody!!) Why is everything that does not suit dark skin color racist?
want equal representation?? Wanna be represented as much as "white" ppl are?! Well then, accept that there are some things that are not for you, just like most white ppl have to exept when a collection is not for them.
I received a gift card for a tanning salon (50 Euro worth.)
I am very allergic to direct sunlight.
5 Minutes in the sun = me no good.
Now, I could have taken this as an offence.
Tell ppl I want representation.
Tell them to value my beauty.
tell them they're being racist for wanting to make me look like everybody else.
I did not.
I said thank you and gave the card to my friend, who likes tanning.
Shruged it off.
I have been called all kinds of things and most ppl do assume i'm plain stupid (yesssss, theres a blonde and she wears lots of make up plus shes got double D breast - she cant have a brain!). But I do not care. I do not care that I havent yet seen a blonde bombshell playing the smart lawyer in TV. I do not care that 95% of the make up out there isnt for me. And when ppl tell me I look like cottage cheese or just plain disgusting with my "effking goth skin", I shrug it off. I do not need to be valued by MAC, cosmetic companies, movies or magazines. My family does that for me. And I do. I love the way I look. and I love the way my NW 40 asian friend looks. I do not think that it is necessary that every single movie, company etc. represents me.
Why do you need to find yourself in every single collection? (just for the rec.: most of my white friends do not find themeselves in every collection... it happens to everybody!!) Why is everything that does not suit dark skin color racist?
want equal representation?? Wanna be represented as much as "white" ppl are?! Well then, accept that there are some things that are not for you, just like most white ppl have to exept when a collection is not for them.
OnaFyre
Well-known member
Quote:
I take issue with you asking them in the first place and not the reasons behind it.
I never assume anyting when it comes to racism. What implied that I was assuming anything about which race owns racism? We all own it.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
I didn't ask you those things to have you answer them publicly, only to inspire introspection. Please don't assume that racism only applies to non-whites, as that isn't the case. |
I take issue with you asking them in the first place and not the reasons behind it.
I never assume anyting when it comes to racism. What implied that I was assuming anything about which race owns racism? We all own it.
Janice
Well-known member
Quote:
That comment honestly makes me sad. I completly understand what you mean though.
IMO this is a delicate subject, when it's brought up you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I would like to see it discussed, but at the same time am wary of it because these conversations always end up with everyone being dissatisfied that their opinion is not being heard or construed correctly.
If this was a round table discussion it would be much more productive and enlightening for all parties. This is the second best format I can provide though, and I hope it will be used positively to empower voices and opinions.
| Originally Posted by OnaFyre
I think we all just got comfortable here at Specktra as a place to air some of that publicly with other people of color who are interested in makeup, but perhaps Specktra isn't a safe place for that... |
That comment honestly makes me sad. I completly understand what you mean though.
IMO this is a delicate subject, when it's brought up you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I would like to see it discussed, but at the same time am wary of it because these conversations always end up with everyone being dissatisfied that their opinion is not being heard or construed correctly.
If this was a round table discussion it would be much more productive and enlightening for all parties. This is the second best format I can provide though, and I hope it will be used positively to empower voices and opinions.
sharyn
Well-known member
Quote:
That happens to everyone. every race. nationality. color.
I have just been turned down form a job. because they looked for someone who looks more "respectable" - guess it is not possible to sell wine when you look like the dumb blonde, even if you know a bit about retail jobs and wine.
prejudice? racism? stereotypes?
| Originally Posted by OnaFyre
But, my own estimation of my beauty, while high, doesn't really matter in the world I live in. Others opinions definitely matter when it comes to jobs, romantic relationships, and my interactions with police, |
That happens to everyone. every race. nationality. color.
I have just been turned down form a job. because they looked for someone who looks more "respectable" - guess it is not possible to sell wine when you look like the dumb blonde, even if you know a bit about retail jobs and wine.
prejudice? racism? stereotypes?
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
The questions as to why this thread isn't in the BoC forum imply that this is an issue pertaining only to WoC.
I'm sorry you take issue, but I'm not sorry I ask the questions.
| Originally Posted by OnaFyre
I take issue with you asking them in the first place and not the reasons behind it. I never assume anyting when it comes to racism. What implied that I was assuming anything about which race owns racism? We all own it. |
The questions as to why this thread isn't in the BoC forum imply that this is an issue pertaining only to WoC.
I'm sorry you take issue, but I'm not sorry I ask the questions.
OnaFyre
Well-known member
Quote:
It's really not a question of acceptance. This is the world we live in and we have to accept, adadpt, work within or die. But I think that we, like everyone else, have the right to question it or be pissed about it. But perhaps I'm wrong about that.
| Originally Posted by sharyn
want equal representation?? Wanna be represented as much as "white" ppl are?! Well then, accept that there are some things that are not for you, just like most white ppl have to exept when a collection is not for them. |
It's really not a question of acceptance. This is the world we live in and we have to accept, adadpt, work within or die. But I think that we, like everyone else, have the right to question it or be pissed about it. But perhaps I'm wrong about that.
OnaFyre
Well-known member
Quote:
I never asked why this thread is not in the Beauty of Color forum in this thread or the Beauty of Color thread. My question was in general about moved threads.
I found your questions to be personal, rude, and insulting. I am sorry you asked them, even if you aren't. And I'm sorry that I've been treated so disrespectfully on Specktra because I don't believe that's what Specktra is about and never thought I'd be treated in this manner.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
The questions as to why this thread isn't in the BoC forum imply that this is an issue pertaining only to WoC. I'm sorry you take issue, but I'm not sorry I ask the questions.
|
I never asked why this thread is not in the Beauty of Color forum in this thread or the Beauty of Color thread. My question was in general about moved threads.
I found your questions to be personal, rude, and insulting. I am sorry you asked them, even if you aren't. And I'm sorry that I've been treated so disrespectfully on Specktra because I don't believe that's what Specktra is about and never thought I'd be treated in this manner.
Trunkmonkey
Well-known member
*pops out of trunk
*gets back in the trunk
*gets back out
(snip)Why do you need to find yourself in every single collection? (just for the rec.: most of my white friends do not find themeselves in every collection... it happens to everybody!!) Why is everything that does not suit dark skin color racist?
want equal representation?? Wanna be represented as much as "white" ppl are?! Well then, accept that there are some things that are not for you, just like most white ppl have to exept when a collection is not for them.(snip)
yup... my 'thanks' button doesn't work but big salute
*gets back in
*gets back in the trunk
*gets back out
(snip)Why do you need to find yourself in every single collection? (just for the rec.: most of my white friends do not find themeselves in every collection... it happens to everybody!!) Why is everything that does not suit dark skin color racist?
want equal representation?? Wanna be represented as much as "white" ppl are?! Well then, accept that there are some things that are not for you, just like most white ppl have to exept when a collection is not for them.(snip)
yup... my 'thanks' button doesn't work but big salute
*gets back in
- Status
