Pondering Racial Connotations of "Lightful"

[sharyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnaFyre But I think that we, like everyone else, have the right to question it or be pissed about it. But perhaps I'm wrong about that.

ITA!! asking questions, being pissed etc. is what keeps the world going - but it should not be done only for the sake of starting a riot. now, if MAC suddenly discontinued lots of shades NC/NW 30 +, you should ask and be pissed. But riding this dead horse because there is one or two products that do not suit darker skin is IMO, not necessary.

 

[ARmakeupjunkie]

I don't think anyone is saying that if the collection does not represent them it is racist and I don't think anyone was trying to start a riot. We were trying to talk about the standard of beauty and how it is one-sided. I am glad that if someone makes a reference to your skintone, your butt, your lips, your whatever that is negative and not nice, you can just let it roll off your back. Not everyone is like that.

I have never complained about being born Black. Never will. I can say I have never heard anyone complain about being born Black. I wish I was born with smaller feet because it would make finding shoes easier but I was not and, life goes on. We cannot deny that there is a certain standard of beauty, I think some of you did a really good job pointing that standard out. Even if we don't try to live up to that standard, there will always be people trying to hold us up to that standard.

 

[sharyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnaFyre I found your questions to be personal, rude, and insulting. I am sorry you asked them, even if you aren't. And I'm sorry that I've been treated so disrespectfully on Specktra because I don't believe that's what Specktra is about and never thought I'd be treated in this manner.

uuum... sorry... where?! you mean the questions? Werent they meant as a thought provoking impulse?

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnaFyre I never asked why this thread is not in the Beauty of Color forum in this thread or the Beauty of Color thread. My question was in general about moved threads. I found your questions to be personal, rude, and insulting. I am sorry you asked them, even if you aren't. And I'm sorry that I've been treated so disrespectfully on Specktra because I don't believe that's what Specktra is about and never thought I'd be treated in this manner.

Quote:

And for the record, I have Angelina Jolie's lips and I'm called a monkey. I have Jessica Simpson's wished for butt, and I'm called "the fat black one, you know..." And that's the difference. For them it is a boon, for me it is a curse. My beauty is not valued, and as long as people don't understand why those lips and butt are different for me than those celebrities, then my beauty will never be valued.

I asked the questions based on this post.
I'm sorry you're offended, as, again, that was not the intention.

 

[Trunkmonkey]

Quote:
"And for the record, I have Angelina Jolie's lips and I'm called a monkey. I have Jessica Simpson's wished for butt, and I'm called "the fat black one, you know..." And that's the difference. For them it is a boon, for me it is a curse. My beauty is not valued, and as long as people don't understand why those lips and butt are different for me than those celebrities, then my beauty will never be valued."

....

 

[sharyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trunkmonkey *pops out of trunk *gets back in the trunk

quote:
ummm what exactly is wrong with being a monkey?
(I'm too dumb to multi-quote)

 

[Trunkmonkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharyn quote: ummm what exactly is wrong with being a monkey? (I'm too dumb to multi-quote)

Me too but I'll bet a caveman could do it

 

[Shimmer]

does the multiquote feature even work anymore? I know it used to, but I don't see a button for it anymore

 

[Larkin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I think, for me at least, it's the tedium that comes from every. single. thing. having "racial implications and connotations". Every ad. Every makeup release. Every product. Every movie every thought process every casting decision. Everything. When Barbie was released it was "Where's the black Barbie doll?" and "Why does this collection only seem like something for white girls?"...with Danse it was "OMG AnOTHER collection for white girls and their pale skin"... By no stretch of the imagination am I saying that racism doesn't exist. By no stretch of the imagination am I saying there isn't a standard of beauty that's difficult for all women to adhere to and aspire to. But not everything has racial connotations. Look at Beyonce and Tyra. Both proclaim (loudly, I might add) to be strong black women who have been successful in life. I'll agree to their success but... Both keep their skin to a caramel color (the color white girls aspire to while tanning), both keep their REAL hair under wraps and wear wigs (sometimes better quality than others), both have had cosmetic surgery to Anglicize their features. Flip that now, and look at Jessica Simpson and Angelina Jolie. You can find old pictures of Jolie and compare them to new ones and see that she's had extremely fine tuned cosmetic surgery, including having her upper lip plumped and her nose refined. Jessica Simpson had the infamous restylan (restalyne?) debacle in attempts to have more pouty lips. THere are literally HUNDREDS of lip plumping products on the market that promise to make the kisser more prominent. BOTH have heavy breasted frames, and Jessica Simpson has lamented that she has a "white girl booty" and wants "a ghetto butt". The standard of beauty isn't white. Nor is it black. It's not Asian either. It's somewhere in the middle of it all. And, if we're making changes in ourselves because we WANT to, FOR ourselves, and not because someone else told us to...what's wrong with all of us wanting to be on middle ground?

For you to say "keep their color" you imply that they are avoiding the sun for fear of becoming darker! (something you don't know)

Concerning the plastic surgery comment

I can't tell, nor do I believe Beyonce or Tyra have ever went under the knife. Maybe you should've use Janet Jackson as an example.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin For you to say "keep their color" you imply that they are avoiding the sun for fear of becoming darker! (something you don't know) Concerning the plastic surgery comment I can't tell, nor do I believe Beyonce or Tyra have ever went under the knife. Maybe you should've use Janet Jackson as an example.

Sunblock, and you're right Janet Jackson is a good example as well.

 

[Me220]

Quote:

I think its also fair to say that this is the internal conversation that some, by no means all, people of color go through on a regular/daily/hourly/ minute by minuet (especially in the workplace) basis. We are constantly confronted with issues that make us question our place and self worth in this culture, and those questions are often linked to our racial identities. I'm not sure if that is something easily understood. But it is a constant thought process for some people. Luckily, I've studied it academically and can channel it or turn it off, but some people can't. And there are so many people who have the luxury of never having to think about it at all. I think we all just got comfortable here at Specktra as a place to air some of that publicly with other people of color who are interested in makeup, but perhaps Specktra isn't a safe place for that...

.

This is the heart of the issue. And I most definitely agree with the bolded part. I thought this was a safer space to talk about this, particularly in the Beauty of Color forum. This is not soley a WoC issue, but WoC are in a position to understand the complexities outlined above by OnaFrye. This conversation was over before it began.

This is what I have learned today: Racism and racial issues go away when we stop talking about them. I wish I'd known that, I wouldn't have wasted anyone's time.

Because there are people who are tired of dealing with it, yet who continue to deal with it to inform me they are tired; I should keep quiet. Continued apologies.

Last, but not least, Racial issues only play out on a Micro level, so if you've never experienced a problem, then what's the big deal anyway. I need to rethink my experiences, my context is all screwed up.

OnaFrye and ARmakeupjunkie, I appreciate you understanding where I'm coming from. But I know I can't talk here about this anymore. I just got uncomfortable.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me220 . This is the heart of the issue. And I most definitely agree with the bolded part. I thought this was a safer space to talk about this, particularly in the Beauty of Color forum. This is not soley a WoC issue, but WoC are in a position to understand the complexities outlined above by OnaFrye. This conversation was over before it began. This is what I have learned today: Racism and racial issues go away when we stop talking about them. I wish I'd known that, I wouldn't have wasted anyone's time. Because there are people who are tired of dealing with it, yet who continue to deal with it to inform me they are tired; I should keep quiet. Continued apologies. Last, but not least, Racial issues only play out on a Micro level, so if you've never experienced a problem, then what's the big deal anyway. I need to rethink my experiences, my context is all screwed up. OneFrye and ARmakeupjunkie, I appreciate you understanding where I'm coming from. But I know I can't talk here about this anymore. I just got uncomfortable.

Perhaps had the original point of the thread been construed as "Standards of Beauty...Does the Lightful collection really exemplify how women on the whole continually strive to change who and what they inherently are to be 'better'? What is it about current standards of beauty that drives women of color away from being proud of their ethnicity? What is it about current standards of beauty that drives caucasian women to frying themselves in a tanning box and coating themselves in bronzer in an attempt to have darker skintone? Women, are we sabotaging ourselves in regard to truly exemplifying and appreciating that which is beautiful about ourselves by constantly trying to be something we're not?" instead of "Does the Lightful collection again underappreciate beauty in women of color?" it might have been a bit better received, as that (the former), I think, was the original point...according to other posters, at least.

No one denied racism happens...in fact, I know I said it does and it's a travesty and it's wrong on the most basic of human levels.
The thing that I don't understand is why racism, when it's not there, is still sought out. Has society been so conditioned to be "PC" and "sensitive to the offensiveness of everyone around us" that we search out things to be offended about?

It doesn't go away because people stop talking about it. It goes away because people take away the power of the belief.

 

[Me220]

That was the point, and that was how it was phrased. I said it was an example of a larger issue, but no one cares about the larger issue. Probably because it's too hard. Everyone read what they wanted to read, and was more honest because of it. I got to see the truth of what people think, and that is valuable because I am now sure of the environment I'm in.

Sorry the discussion wasn't palatable to your idea of what it should have been, but I'm glad I know what your stances are.

 

[ARmakeupjunkie]

If anyone believes that someday racism will go away, you have a lot to learn about the world. I do not know how anyone could believe that will really happen. Maybe in a perfect place. Racism is taught and as long as there is someone to teach it someone will learn.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me220 I'm glad I know what your stances are.

If you're implying I'm racist, you're wrong. If you're implying I'm elitist, classist, anti-ethnic, or anti-discussion, you're also wrong.
If you're implying that I'd rather see something done about problems, perceived or not, rather than something said about them, you're correct.

I never denied racism is wrong.
I never said it doesn't exist.
I never once said it was right.
I never said that when a true inequity or injustice is committed it should be ignored. I never implied that, intentionally or otherwise.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARmakeupjunkie If anyone believes that someday racism will go away, you have a lot to learn about the world. I do not know how anyone could believe that will really happen. Maybe in a perfect place. Racism is taught and as long as there is someone to teach it someone will learn.

That's sadly very true.

On the other hand, in a more hopeful vein, there are people like whose responsibility is to teach our children and the children in our families that racism is wrong, and to teach our children to look at each other as people and not colors. It's also our responsibility to teach our children not to be victims of their circumstances, but instead to work hard to make the best of what life has to offer them, regardless of the obstacles.

Some obstacles are harder than others...but very little can truly NOT be overcome.

As long as we, and those we love are doing that, and continue to do that, perhaps ground can be gained.

 

[Kels823]

(I started composing this much earlier then I had to meet w/ a client. So there may be more posts that I havent read yet.)

Regarding the 'Lightful' collection itself: My first thought was that it was a skin brightening line, not lightening. I thought Lightful was a cute name for it and appropriate. And then I started looking for Lipglass.

Regarding the underlying issue of race/skintone preference in general dealing with cosmetics (as this is the topic the OP was trying to get us to discuss): Its hidden, but its there. Look how many cosmetic lines are limited in their foundation range. Look at the models that are being used in 80+ percent of campaigns (MAC and otherwise). I wouldnt call it 'racism'. Im not really sure what I would call it. But WHATEVER it is - Its there. And we all see it. Now will we all admit it? Nah. Some of us will sugar coat it and defend it and justify it. But its there. However, I personally choose not to give it alot of thought. I know its there, but I dont give it alot of my energy. Thats my stand on it. There are some ppl who are hugely disturbed by this, down to their very core. Thats their stand on it. Everything aint for everybody.

Regarding posters who responded in a way which negated the OPs topic of discussion: THAT disturbs ME to my very core. Who are you to say what should and shouldnt matter to someone? Who are you to say that someone cant be upset/disturbed/concerned about the issue that in one way or another involves them? Youve never been in their shoes. Youve never experienced what they have. Youve never lived their life. So you cant really say who should feel what. We all disagree, thats what makes the world go round. But theres a difference in disagreeing and disrespecting.

 

[Trunkmonkey]

I really tried to bring some humor to this thred but to no avail *sigh* I really don't want to get off on a rant here but LOOKING FOR A RACIAL ISSUE WHERE ONE TRULY DOES NOT EXIST DOES NOTHING MORE THAN INFLAME THE ISSUE AND POLARIZE PEOPLE CREATING ADDITIONAL HARD FEELINGS AND UNNECESSARY CONFLICT. How normally intelligent people can't see this is beyond me.

Look racism turns my stomach. I'd like nothing better than to take a pipe wrench to every klukkers head I see. Flip side is I do get tired of hearing 'blah blah blah blah' because of race when it's simply NOT there.

I GUARANTEE that there are lines out there and in the works that are specifically designed for WOC. I'd like to see the reaction if some pasty white crybaby whined that there's nothing in that line for her it it's not fair.

I think I'll go look for something to be offended by. It seems to be all the rage these days.

Get over it, lighten up, and just live life people. We all wind up as worm food at the end.

/rant

this rant brought to you by the trunk monkey. all rights reserved.

 

[Me220]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer If you're implying I'm racist, you're wrong. If you're implying I'm elitist, classist, anti-ethnic, or anti-discussion, you're also wrong. If you're implying that I'd rather see something done about problems, perceived or not, rather than something said about them, you're correct. I never denied racism is wrong. I never said it doesn't exist. I never once said it was right. I never said that when a true inequity or injustice is committed it should be ignored. I never implied that, intentionally or otherwise.

I never implied any of those things about you, although you may want to check who gets to determine a true injustice. Who decides what is worth discussion? and is that a sign of priviledge, which is another representation of the same ideal we're discussing?

Btw, those questions are not at you so much as to provide discussion, much like your questions to OnaFrye.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kels823 Regarding the underlying issue of race/skintone preference in general dealing with cosmetics (as this is the topic the OP was trying to get us to discuss): Its hidden, but its there. Look how many cosmetic lines are limited in their foundation range. Look at the models that are being used in 80+ percent of campaigns (MAC and otherwise). I wouldnt call it 'racism'. Im not really sure what I would call it. But WHATEVER it is - Its there. And we all see it. Now will we all admit it? Nah. Some of us will sugar coat it and defend it and justify it. But its there. However, I personally choose not to give it alot of thought. I know its there, but I dont give it alot of my energy. Thats my stand on it. There are some ppl who are hugely disturbed by this, down to their very core. Thats their stand on it. Everything aint for everybody.

I think this can partly be explained by (or perhaps it's the explanation for?) the thread saniyarshad (I know I mutilated that name...I'm sorry) started about most women wearing cosmetics, but ethnicity is a factor in what they wear...
Since caucasian women are (according to that thread) the ones who wear foundation mainly, it stands to reason there would be more of a range for their skintone...
OR
Since there's more of a range for their skintone, caucasian women are the ones who wear foundation more than their darker skinned counterparts...
It may be a vicious cycle...


Regarding the rest of your post, I understand what you're saying and I'm sorry for offending you.