Race Issues

Hawkeye

Well-known member
indigowaters-thank you so much for elaborating on the trust issue. Because there are a lot of things that dont and arent taken into consideration and for me that would have been one of them. I didn't think of that!
It is so nice to have someone to explain some of these things that I know I fully don't understand because obviously I'm not a woman of color but I have come across issues like that-and I have never understood it until now. Thank you so much!
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MACaholic76

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MxAxC-_ATTACK
Please Elaborate, Because I disagree.

Why don't you tell me why you disagree so I can elaborate based on YOUR definition of racism?
 

Indigowaters

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MxAxC-_ATTACK
Please Elaborate, Because I disagree.

Do you disagree because you disagree or because you have experienced racism?
 

MxAxC-_ATTACK

Well-known member
Perhaps I took what you said the wrong way. What I interpereted that as meaning that Black people cannot be racist.

I've had ( in particular ) two black girls whom I used to work with, Call me stupid white girl also giving me names like .. Casper, Ghost-town the usual Cracker. etc etc. . (ive been over this, somewhere else on this board) then tell me how stupid they thought all white people were..

Do you not consider this racist? I do

I am not trying to pick a fight here at all. I simply wanted to know why it is that you said that Its impossible for people of color to be racist.
I realize that Predjudice and Racism are two differnt things. I consider Racist when someone believes their race is superior to someone elses.

I don't know if you took what I said as Rude. I didn't mean for it to be that way.But then again, Its the Internet, you have to use choice words because there is no emotion in typing. I was just curious to your opinions, I like to enlighten myself and was Interested in what you had to say.

I should't have said anything. I apologize
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
From dictionary.com

Quote:
rac‧ism  /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

So by definition, minorities can indeed be racist. Just because they can't necessarily keep another group supressed doesn't mean that they can't be racist.

My father is Pakistani. He has been called some very nasty things and treated poorly since 9/11, by people of many other colors. Racism is most assuredly not a white-only trait. Have you ever read some of the things that Louis Farrakhan has said about Jews, Asians or Whites? He, is (or was if you believe he doesn't feel this way anymore) by definition, a racist.
 

MisStarrlight

Well-known member
Thank you all for your support and kind words.
I understand that it is a trust thing, but I also feel that it is completely absurd that someone would think that the color of my skin affects my eyes and/or my makeup ability.
I do have many repeat customers-of all races-that will only come to me....I have obviously proven myself to them, and they bring their friends to me too. So I guess that it's not everyone (helps to prove to myself that it's not me).

An update to this...I was speaking to a manger (of another location) today. She is the only black girl at her location (largely weathy & white clientel) so she was able to understand my situation completely. It was upsetting (to both of us) to note the discrimination on all sides, but also really comforting to know that someone else, at such a level in the company, has been through it and has still been able to movie beyond it & go further.
 

lsperry

Well-known member
No, this was not racism.

It was “experience”. Just about every woman of color has had bad experiences in trying to seek the cosmetics that flatter them. I’ve gone to countless dept store makeup counters – MAC, Clinique, Nars, Smashbox, Estee Lauder, et al – and have been “confronted” by white MAs refusing to swatch me, work on me and always pointing me to the “Fashion Fair” , “Iman” or whatever “ethnic cosmetics” the dept store sells. I usually have to go in with a list of what I want so that I can receive service. Also, at a couple of MAC counters I visited, the white MAs wanted to swatch the back of their hands! I wanted to shout, “hello! Have you looked at me? I’m not trying to buy it for you; I’m buying it for me.” I’m not a MA and I know colors look differently on different skin tones. I seek out the African-American artists because they know when I ask for bright or vibrant colors, they know I don’t want “clownish” or “exotic” makeup. I’ve bent over backwards to be patient with white MAs. I try to put myself in their shoes and think that maybe they’ve had bad customers before I appeared. But rude and prejudicial behavior is never a good thing – but I’ve experienced it at MAC and other cosmetic counters simply because of the color of my skin. Yes, it’s probably my “fault” I live in a part of North Florida who prides itself on being nick-named “Red-neck Rivera”.

I agree w/Indigowaters, “Once you do a great job on a woman of color, believe me, she will run back and tell all her friends who did it and they will love your work regardless of your color.”

Here is where I want to praise a MA that helped me at the Belk-Destin, FL counter. She was very helpful to me and complimented me on my knowledge of MAC and actually made suggestions. Once while she was assisting me, three rude white women appeared and demanded service. She stated politely, but firmly, she would be happy to assist them when she was finished w/me. They looked me up and down w/the snottiest of pouts! I smiled and was amused! I feel I’ve established a relationship w/her that I only dreamed about from reading some of the posts in this forum. She has offered to drop my orders off at my office. She lives in Panama City Beach and drives to Destin, FL. What a jewel!! At the Sephora store in Atlanta, I received the same royal treatment and assistance. I left there w/a smile on my face. My list had not only been filled, I even had new colors that had been suggested to me by the MAs.

I like MACaholic76’s positive attitude: “One of the things I do at my counter is that if I'm not doing anything and someone is being color matched, I assist or stand by the artist to learn. I like to do this for all different skintones.” What a great MA and employee!

I’m in engineering – a male dominated profession. I do not get offended when a customer (white male) meets me for the first time and show surprise. An African-American and a woman? Gasp!!! I’m amused by their ignorance! But I always assist them in a professional manner. My motto is nothing or no one will change me from the way I was when I walked in the door that morning – no rude behavior, ignorance or stupidity. I control my feelings and emotions. And at the end of the day, I go home and enjoy my husband.

The internet is the best thing for me as an A-A woman. I’ve spent a ton of money on products I could’ve easily gotten in my community. But because of poor, continually bad treatment, the money leaves my community and does not benefit it. People lose potential salaries and the city/county loses taxes and jobs. Everything affects everything else. The rare time I’ve received poor service from internet companies, I’ve called or e-mailed them. They’ve always bent over backwards to make things right. Would they do this if they were a brick-and-mortar store? I don’t know.

I will remain optimistic until the day I die that all cultures and races are accepted and not pre-judged before they open their mouths. I do know, though, that the “head” dictates how the rest of the body functions. In a lot of businesses, management either leads by example or tolerate poor customer service by their employees. And until management sets a different standard, nothing changes. And why don’t I complain about bad behavior? Because I’m 50 years old and I am tired of complaining about bad employees and services.

And finally, I do think the customer was rude in not letting you know what was bothering her during or after her session with you. How is anyone to learn if they don’t know what they’ve done “wrong”, if they’ve done anything wrong at all? But I wouldn’t get emotional about it. That type of rude behavior from a customer only increases my resolve to give 110%. I’m always satisfied with the way I treat customers. There is never an excuse for bad behavior by a customer! And I will never allow a customer to lower me to their level of stupidity.
 

Indigowaters

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by quandolak
*sigh*...everything is either black or white....we are all bleeping humans who touchwood can all see colours clearly enough to know if something looks clownish or not.

Are you an MA, because I would hate to have someone with the attitude that you just "know". Anyways, I'm glad that we've opened this discussion without name-calling or even saying that someone was wrong because they didn't like the way they were treated.

I've had my own "experiences" with MAs - only MAC (because anywhere else I've matched my own makeup). I had one MA to skip me and a customer she was doing a makeover on to help her "regular" customer, who just so happened to be her same race, white. I still stood there and got what I wanted because my walking away wouldn't have changed her ignorance. But now I refuse to go to that counter. I have to "prove" myself everytime I go to that counter that I a) have the money to buy products and b) know what I want and what I am talking about. I've had another person at that counter stand there and watch me wait on the same MA who skipped me because she had a snotty attitude and didn't want to help me (yes, she was just standing there staring at me and has seen me come in there and drop money before). I've had MAs at another counter walk right past me until I picked up something and then come over and say "Can I help you?". I thought the introduction was supposed to come first? Only after I showed my knowledge of what I wanted, did they become taken aback and want to help me. The only reason I bought something that day was because a girl I knew from highschool came up and finally helped me. The other MAs saw her helping me and were shocked that I bought so much in the end. Needless to say, I haven't gone back to that counter.

I'm not going to let those experiences ruin me on a whole race though, because I am too intelligent to know that not all people are like that. I absolutely loooove
eyelove.gif
the MAs at the MAC store in International Mall. I was there to get help from Leila (aka MacGoddess) and within 2 minutes 7 people came up asking to help me. I didn't get her to help because she was assisting a customer but the guy who did, did a wonderful job of matching my mom with her makeup (and he was of another race). So sometimes you just have to get past the ignorance of one person and chalk it up to them just not being informed.
th_hug.gif
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
I disagree about minorities not being able to be racist and that this wasn't a racist incident. I've experienced racism from other minorities (I'm Asian, btw), and it was totally because I was Asian. If it's racially motivated, it is racism and anyone can be racist as far as I'm concerned.

While I do understand the experience aspect, I don't entirely agree with it. Throughout my education in elementary school, I was harrassed by black students because I was Asian. If I were to let the experience of a small group of black students dictate my attitudes towards black people, I wouldn't have two of my closest friends in my life.

I'd say if word of mouth about this particular MA was that she sucks at doing makeup on darker tones, that's acceptable not to go to her. Judging her based upon her skintone is just as bad as if I would refuse a black makeup artist because I don't think she's understand how to deal with Asian eyes
 

MACaholic76

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
From dictionary.com



So by definition, minorities can indeed be racist. Just because they can't necessarily keep another group supressed doesn't mean that they can't be racist.

My father is Pakistani. He has been called some very nasty things and treated poorly since 9/11, by people of many other colors. Racism is most assuredly not a white-only trait. Have you ever read some of the things that Louis Farrakhan has said about Jews, Asians or Whites? He, is (or was if you believe he doesn't feel this way anymore) by definition, a racist.


I see where you are coming from. May I suggest you look at this from a societal level though? Perhaps grab other books like Beverly TAtum's "Why Do All The Black Kids Eat Together In the Cafeteria?" or other books that explain the social meaning of race and racism in American society?
 

ms.marymac

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACaholic76
I have a lot to say so I am going to try not to ramble here. You brought up a lot of issues and we have to be real careful as not to mix them up. I am really sorry that happened to you first and foremost and I mostly feel sorry for the emotional reactions this is causing you.
Disecting what has happened to you would take forever, but I'd like for you to think of a few things:
By definition, people of color do NOT have the power and privilege in our society to be racist. I get really weary when Whites refer to people of color as racist. No such thing. What you experienced was indeed prejudiced and/or discrimination. Is the area you work at mainly populated by Blacks?
Trust is a huge issue with us as well as it is makeup. I think women of color altogether were raised to believe that "we dont need that stuff" so even getting to a counter and slapping on some lipstick is a huge deal. Not saying you dont know your stuff which I'm sure you do (otherwise you wouldnt b working for mac, right?) but I reassure you that matching our skintone, especially if hyperpigmented, can be hell. Trust me.
One of the things I do at my counter is that if I'm not doing anything and someone is being color matched, I assist or stand by the artist to learn. I like to do this for all different skintones.
And also, dont judge your skills on such a small amount of customers. Gurl... u got a lot more that will come! Also, do not judge one racial group by the fact that you missed your money goal due to the 3 women of color that ...and I'll use the word "chose" to use someone else. You are mixing things together that shouldn't be.
I have a lot more to say but I think I got ADD...I lost track. Laterz!


I think a lot of women (of every color) are on the defense when they visit a makeup counter. Visiting a makeup counter means putting your appearance in someone else's hands. It's the same as going to a hairstylist for the first time.
 

Indigowaters

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by quandolak
I made those comments cos i was annoyed that so many previous posts had made assumptions that someones bad manners etc was due entierly to their race. eg... rude white woman. Stuck up. ..And humble patient ethnic person. ...i mean like come on...it can come from both sides....

Yes, it can come from both sides, but I have never just walked in and expected service or to be waited on first or over someone because of the color of my skin. Unfortunately, I have met people that use their race to their advantage. And the reason we are sometimes the "humble patient ethnic person" is because non-ethnic people like to say that we're "sensitive" and playing the race card when we bring up things like this. But obviously in this post, we're not the only ones who are sensitive to what we feel is prejudice. So it goes both ways. But for some reason, we're expected to get over it, calm down and not bring it up. Also when we say things have happened to us like this, people try to downplay it as "Well, maybe she just this and maybe she just that", instead of confronting racism head-on.
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d_flawless

Well-known member
i think this thread has gone from one thing (trust issue) to another (racism) and i can feel the tension, considering there are people from all over the world here on specktra, with different experiences, different opinions. not to be all miss congeniality or anything, but it's probably not even worth it to go there, because i doubt anyone will change their opinion based on someone else's. like i mentioned in my earlier thread, i think misstarrlight was almost venting a frustration, and now it's gone the other way...sometimes it's better just to leave it at that...
 

little teaser

Well-known member
i do belive that racism does exsist no matter the background and those people are shallow it's like 2006 already get over it and move on but as far as the makeup thing i can see where a person going to get color match may be scared or nervous and think that someone of there ethnic background could match them better as long as there not rude about it i totally could understand i have two stores in my town and the freestanding store always have new diffrent people i get nervous too and skincolor makes no diffrence the only one i trust is a black lady only cause she has been there since day one and can match anyone and at the counter at dillards there is a white lady there i trust thats been there a long time she does good the only person that ever match me wrong was a new asian girl with my skintone so gofiger she gave me nw when im nc and when i ask her why she said we dont have nc35 in stock so i totally dont let her match my foundation anymore
 

sandsonik

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACaholic76
By definition, people of color do NOT have the power and privilege in our society to be racist. I get really weary when Whites refer to people of color as racist. No such thing. What you experienced was indeed prejudiced and/or discrimination.

I've heard this argument before...and I can understand what you're saying, that racism is the institutionalized version of prejudice and that racism doesn't exist if one doesn't own the POWER to be racist.

But I think the example here clearly contradicts your assertion.

Those women DID have the power and privilege to be racist. They spoke with their pocketbooks and took business away from the OP because she was white. How is that not power and privilege?

If enough of her customers reacted the same way, she'd lose her job because of racism. Isn't that the very definition of racism - the denial of opportunity due to race?
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
If that was directed at me, my point wasn't that Asians are the end all, be all of races and are 100% perfect. Plenty of Asians I know (my age, nonetheless) have issues with Hispanics, black people, white people, even different ethnicities within Asia. I was giving a concrete example of how a minority can be racist. That's the strongest example I could give and I'm sorry you misinterpreted it, if that's the case.
 
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