"Skinny Model Ban" in Madrid
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Raerae
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Originally Posted by Shimmer
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And you miss posts (again) where people give you the exact thing you are asking for... Which effects your argument.
From Lara's posts having expierence in the field:
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So how many thousands of runway models are there world wide? Let alone photo models? Thats 50 runway girls who lose their jobs out of every thousand, and 100 photo models if they they enforce the ban everywhere, and expand the ban to other areas of modeling. And these girls have done nothing wrong other than be NATURALLY beautiful. And thats wrong. If you can't see that, nothing I can say will convince you that using BMI is a BAD way to choose models. Especially when there are obvious physical tells when someone is thin and healthy, vs thin and sick.
I take it personally because it does effect me. It's more fuel to the fire for people to discriminate against thin girls. Now they can justify their abuse with, "Well even the fashion industry thinks your too thin." It's just going to be another insult i'll hear from someone at some point or another.
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| Hey RaeRae, if a person has a job where they're supposed to represent the "societal ideal" of physical beauty, then yes, it's reasonable to have standards regarding such issues. I still await examples of the so-called healthy women who are being discriminated against. You're taking something personally that doesn't affect you and it's affecting your argument. |
And you miss posts (again) where people give you the exact thing you are asking for... Which effects your argument.
From Lara's posts having expierence in the field:
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| Based on my own personal experience of working in fashion, maybe 1 in 20 runway models are natrually slim and about 1 in ten photographic models are natrually slim. Everyone else is artifically thin, and I do emphasis a difference between thin and slim. |
So how many thousands of runway models are there world wide? Let alone photo models? Thats 50 runway girls who lose their jobs out of every thousand, and 100 photo models if they they enforce the ban everywhere, and expand the ban to other areas of modeling. And these girls have done nothing wrong other than be NATURALLY beautiful. And thats wrong. If you can't see that, nothing I can say will convince you that using BMI is a BAD way to choose models. Especially when there are obvious physical tells when someone is thin and healthy, vs thin and sick.
I take it personally because it does effect me. It's more fuel to the fire for people to discriminate against thin girls. Now they can justify their abuse with, "Well even the fashion industry thinks your too thin." It's just going to be another insult i'll hear from someone at some point or another.
Raerae
Well-known member
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It doesn't matter if I did or didn't have one. It's just plain rude. Anyone who is thin automatically gets labeled as having a relationship with ED.
This is more recent now than ever. Within the last 5 years I've noticed a huge increase in the amout of rude comments made by people who have no business making them. Probably due to the over exposure the whole "thin" thing is getting on a global scale.
I also think that the fact the obesity is rising is also partially to blame as well. I look even thinner now than I did when I was 16 (I use 16 as a reference since it's the only recorded weight I have from those years as it was printed on my DL), not because I have lost ANY weight. But because EVERYONE around me has gained weight. I've always the thinnest person in the group, and I look even thinner now because everyone else is larger.
Originally Posted by Uchina
God that's horrible! What if you actually DID have an ED? What bitches. |
It doesn't matter if I did or didn't have one. It's just plain rude. Anyone who is thin automatically gets labeled as having a relationship with ED.
This is more recent now than ever. Within the last 5 years I've noticed a huge increase in the amout of rude comments made by people who have no business making them. Probably due to the over exposure the whole "thin" thing is getting on a global scale.
I also think that the fact the obesity is rising is also partially to blame as well. I look even thinner now than I did when I was 16 (I use 16 as a reference since it's the only recorded weight I have from those years as it was printed on my DL), not because I have lost ANY weight. But because EVERYONE around me has gained weight. I've always the thinnest person in the group, and I look even thinner now because everyone else is larger.
Shimmer
Well-known member
You're seriously going to sit there and complain about other people being rude when you just called your coworkers fatasses?
You've said you're naturally slim, yet...I've also seen you say that you freak out when you gain weight, and aren't comfortable at above a certain weight...
You're also reacting based off insults that havent happened yet.
There are obvious signs when someone is thin and healthy? REALLY? I had no idea! So when a teenager falls out during PE doing wind sprints for basketball because she's been starving herself to look like Gemma Ward, but there are no physical signs outwardly that should indicate concern......what? A healthy female just fell out because the windsprints were too hard? Come on. Be realistic.
Lara's post was, through my perception, a statement toward the serious lack of models who are truly healthy. And, if fifty girls have to get a real job where they like, go to work and stuff, and have to pay bills and work in an office or corporately or even doing menial tasks so the societal outlook can be conditioned to view extreme thinness as unattractive and not a desired state of being, really, I have NO problem with that.
Not having an ED and getting mad when someone says you do is kind of silly. You know the truth. Getting angry over it, especially considering many of the comments you've made, indicates there's more than meets the eye, perhaps even to you.
AND, Not every "naturally slim" woman is a runway model. In fact, the extreme minority of them are, so to say thousands of women are losing jobs because of a standard that has been applied is misleading. You claim this standard affects you, yet you aren't a runway model. That's silly.
You've said you're naturally slim, yet...I've also seen you say that you freak out when you gain weight, and aren't comfortable at above a certain weight...
You're also reacting based off insults that havent happened yet.
There are obvious signs when someone is thin and healthy? REALLY? I had no idea! So when a teenager falls out during PE doing wind sprints for basketball because she's been starving herself to look like Gemma Ward, but there are no physical signs outwardly that should indicate concern......what? A healthy female just fell out because the windsprints were too hard? Come on. Be realistic.
Lara's post was, through my perception, a statement toward the serious lack of models who are truly healthy. And, if fifty girls have to get a real job where they like, go to work and stuff, and have to pay bills and work in an office or corporately or even doing menial tasks so the societal outlook can be conditioned to view extreme thinness as unattractive and not a desired state of being, really, I have NO problem with that.
Not having an ED and getting mad when someone says you do is kind of silly. You know the truth. Getting angry over it, especially considering many of the comments you've made, indicates there's more than meets the eye, perhaps even to you.
AND, Not every "naturally slim" woman is a runway model. In fact, the extreme minority of them are, so to say thousands of women are losing jobs because of a standard that has been applied is misleading. You claim this standard affects you, yet you aren't a runway model. That's silly.
Shimmer
Well-known member
And, you're misunderstanding me.
I don't hold BMI as the be all and end all of statement of health.
I'm saying a standard has to be applied, and this particular standard, while not always the best, is a) the most easily applied, b) ON AVERAGE the most universal, and c) most easily enforced.
I wouldn't care if it meant that in order to do a fashion show a model has to 'train' for it the way athletes do, as long as healthy bodies started showing up instead of what is clanking along in high heels down the strip these days.
I don't hold BMI as the be all and end all of statement of health.
I'm saying a standard has to be applied, and this particular standard, while not always the best, is a) the most easily applied, b) ON AVERAGE the most universal, and c) most easily enforced.
I wouldn't care if it meant that in order to do a fashion show a model has to 'train' for it the way athletes do, as long as healthy bodies started showing up instead of what is clanking along in high heels down the strip these days.
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
Oh right, like you've NEVER talked shit about someone behind thier back.
And I didn't walk into my office on the first day and think, "what a bunch of fatasses." I came to that conclusion after being given shit for no reason while we were out to lunch the FIRST day on the job about my weight. And then watched them stuff more food into themselves in one sitting, than I do all day.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
You're seriously going to sit there and complain about other people being rude when you just called your coworkers fatasses? |
Oh right, like you've NEVER talked shit about someone behind thier back.
And I didn't walk into my office on the first day and think, "what a bunch of fatasses." I came to that conclusion after being given shit for no reason while we were out to lunch the FIRST day on the job about my weight. And then watched them stuff more food into themselves in one sitting, than I do all day.
Shimmer
Well-known member
I didn't say I hadn't.
I simply pointed out the contradictions in your statement(s).
Seeing a naturally thin woman who eats regularly and healthily, doesn't hide it, and doesn't make an issue of it rarely generates comments, at least where I'm from.
Seeing a "naturally thin" woman who doesn't eat with other people, drinks coffee all the time, and makes an issue when someone asks about her health will generate comments, because the behaviour is aberrant from the norm, the norm as dictated by psychologists who point out that those behaviours (for the second woman) are signs of a problem.
I simply pointed out the contradictions in your statement(s).
Seeing a naturally thin woman who eats regularly and healthily, doesn't hide it, and doesn't make an issue of it rarely generates comments, at least where I'm from.
Seeing a "naturally thin" woman who doesn't eat with other people, drinks coffee all the time, and makes an issue when someone asks about her health will generate comments, because the behaviour is aberrant from the norm, the norm as dictated by psychologists who point out that those behaviours (for the second woman) are signs of a problem.
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
After a while you get tired of the whole snide remarks people feel they can freely and openly make towards thin girls. Since just because you have the "current ideal" body shape, it's ok to give you shit about it.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
Not having an ED and getting mad when someone says you do is kind of silly. |
After a while you get tired of the whole snide remarks people feel they can freely and openly make towards thin girls. Since just because you have the "current ideal" body shape, it's ok to give you shit about it.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Not 'naturally thin'
Probably not her either.
right.
These women probably ARE naturally thin, but not this thin.
Probably not her either.
right.
These women probably ARE naturally thin, but not this thin.
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
Thats not how it works around here. Like I said I went out to lunch on my FIRST DAY, and ordered a salad, and a halibut plate (yes i still remember because they really got under my skin). It's not like I sat there not eating. Yet I still got shit for it. Insert comments about throwing up here.
Your obviously not thin like I am. Else you would understand how blatently rude people are. And the reality is, I'm not even that thin. I just have an extremely small bone structure. Most size 0's slip off my ass. So I look a lot thinner than I actually am, just because of my bone structure. If I had an Average set of hips on me and a bigger cup size, I would probably weigh in easily between 115-120, which is the "weight I'm supposed to be" for my height.
My wonderfully healthy breakfast today? McDonalds #3 with an Oj (thats 2 Egg Mc Muffins). A small sandwich for lunch, and I'm meeting my Mom for dinner tonight. Regardless I wont gain any weight (I never do), and I'll still get asked tomorrow if I've eaten anything today.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
Seeing a naturally thin woman who eats regularly and healthily, doesn't hide it, and doesn't make an issue of it rarely generates comments, at least where I'm from. |
Thats not how it works around here. Like I said I went out to lunch on my FIRST DAY, and ordered a salad, and a halibut plate (yes i still remember because they really got under my skin). It's not like I sat there not eating. Yet I still got shit for it. Insert comments about throwing up here.
Your obviously not thin like I am. Else you would understand how blatently rude people are. And the reality is, I'm not even that thin. I just have an extremely small bone structure. Most size 0's slip off my ass. So I look a lot thinner than I actually am, just because of my bone structure. If I had an Average set of hips on me and a bigger cup size, I would probably weigh in easily between 115-120, which is the "weight I'm supposed to be" for my height.
My wonderfully healthy breakfast today? McDonalds #3 with an Oj (thats 2 Egg Mc Muffins). A small sandwich for lunch, and I'm meeting my Mom for dinner tonight. Regardless I wont gain any weight (I never do), and I'll still get asked tomorrow if I've eaten anything today.
GalleyGirl
Well-known member
Quote:
I think thats a good idea. As far as keeping up health standards in general in the fashion industry, perhaps they can implement mandatory drug tests to test for illicit drugs, the same way they test athletes for steroids. I think that would be a more cut and dry solution, because a quick test can determine the prescence of drugs in your system, whereas dertermining the existence of an eating disorder is not so black and white.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
I wouldn't care if it meant that in order to do a fashion show a model has to 'train' for it the way athletes do, as long as healthy bodies started showing up instead of what is clanking along in high heels down the strip these days. |
I think thats a good idea. As far as keeping up health standards in general in the fashion industry, perhaps they can implement mandatory drug tests to test for illicit drugs, the same way they test athletes for steroids. I think that would be a more cut and dry solution, because a quick test can determine the prescence of drugs in your system, whereas dertermining the existence of an eating disorder is not so black and white.
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
And it's obvious they are not healthy. Have a comittee that polices runway models based on their appearance, not their BMI. I would be perfectly happy with not seeing models like in those pics on the catwalk. It's OBVIOUS they are sick. But dont force girls who are under 18, and look healthy (i'm sure you can find pics if you want too) from working.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
Not 'naturally thin' Probably not her either. right. These women probably ARE naturally thin, but not this thin. |
And it's obvious they are not healthy. Have a comittee that polices runway models based on their appearance, not their BMI. I would be perfectly happy with not seeing models like in those pics on the catwalk. It's OBVIOUS they are sick. But dont force girls who are under 18, and look healthy (i'm sure you can find pics if you want too) from working.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
LMAO very nice attempt at calling me fat.
Actually, when I'm taking care of myself, I'm about a zero. My natural weight is around a buck five. I was five months pregnant and wearing a size 2.
Five months, a size 2.
When I gave birth when I was sixteen, within 3 weeks I was back to my pre-pregnancy size.
When I gave birth to my second child, within a week I was back into my pre pregnancy jeans.
The ONLY reason I carry a "healthy" weight now of 128 is because a) I gained a LOT of weight in the army, and b) I have a lot of muscle mass gained from lifting weights and rock climbing. I'm not saying I couldn't stand to lose some fat tissue but no, RaeRae, I'm not fat.
Re: a visual assessment.
It's a standard.
It's applied.
It's across the boards no questions asked.
Drug tests should be mandatory anyway, IMO, but that's just me.
As far as people losing work because they're not at the standard set for their chosen vocation:
Wah. Life sucks. Reassess yourself and your career choice and go from there.
| Originally Posted by Raerae
Your obviously not thin like I am. Else you would understand how blatently rude people are. And the reality is, I'm not even that thin. I just have an extremely small bone structure. Most size 0's slip off my ass. So I look a lot thinner than I actually am, just because of my bone structure. If I had an Average set of hips on me and a bigger cup size, I would probably weigh in easily between 115-120, which is the "weight I'm supposed to be" for my height. |
LMAO very nice attempt at calling me fat.
Actually, when I'm taking care of myself, I'm about a zero. My natural weight is around a buck five. I was five months pregnant and wearing a size 2.
Five months, a size 2.
When I gave birth when I was sixteen, within 3 weeks I was back to my pre-pregnancy size.
When I gave birth to my second child, within a week I was back into my pre pregnancy jeans.
The ONLY reason I carry a "healthy" weight now of 128 is because a) I gained a LOT of weight in the army, and b) I have a lot of muscle mass gained from lifting weights and rock climbing. I'm not saying I couldn't stand to lose some fat tissue but no, RaeRae, I'm not fat.
Re: a visual assessment.
It's a standard.
It's applied.
It's across the boards no questions asked.
Drug tests should be mandatory anyway, IMO, but that's just me.
As far as people losing work because they're not at the standard set for their chosen vocation:
Wah. Life sucks. Reassess yourself and your career choice and go from there.
little teaser
Well-known member
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im in your boat isnt it funny how most of the rude skinny comments come from over weight people who over eat and think there normal and we have a eating disorder but they dont by over eating and how nice of the fashion world to put the brakes on when there the ones who created the monster to begain with telling them to lose weight or they cant work it's like hello make up your fucking mind here im a size o and 00 berfor my kids and i love it i dont let haters get under my skin
| Originally Posted by Raerae
Oh right, like you've NEVER talked shit about someone behind thier back.
And I didn't walk into my office on the first day and think, "what a bunch of fatasses." I came to that conclusion after being given shit for no reason while we were out to lunch the FIRST day on the job about my weight. And then watched them stuff more food into themselves in one sitting, than I do all day. |
im in your boat isnt it funny how most of the rude skinny comments come from over weight people who over eat and think there normal and we have a eating disorder but they dont by over eating and how nice of the fashion world to put the brakes on when there the ones who created the monster to begain with telling them to lose weight or they cant work it's like hello make up your fucking mind here im a size o and 00 berfor my kids and i love it i dont let haters get under my skin
Beauty Mark
Well-known member
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When I was a normal, healthy weight as a child, I'd get comments like that for wanting to eating healthy. I still get those comments at times, and I'm a 4'10 girl who can wear a size 2-4. I'm thin, but I have curves, so the idea of me having an ED seems ludicrious. IMO, I can usually see that a person is too thin, too fat, or is indulging in unhealthy behaviors; being thin or fat doesn't automatically mean ED. I don't agree with all your arguments, but I will say I get where you're coming from on that.
It's hurtful for people to comment on your appearance, honestly, and it's even worse when they assume other stuff about people with eating disorders. You're treated like you're stupid or 5 years old, when usually an ED is much more complex than just over or undereating.
Back to the idea of the models, I hope all the appearance-related industries look closer at showing healthy women. I think that's what it boils down to. Maybe it won't affect you or me (I don't give a damn what other people look like in comparison to me, and I don't hear too much discussion about models, beyond the older ones who aren't really involved in it any more), but I hope it helps the people in the industry.
| Thats not how it works around here. Like I said I went out to lunch on my FIRST DAY, and ordered a salad, and a halibut plate (yes i still remember because they really got under my skin). It's not like I sat there not eating. Yet I still got shit for it. Insert comments about throwing up here. |
When I was a normal, healthy weight as a child, I'd get comments like that for wanting to eating healthy. I still get those comments at times, and I'm a 4'10 girl who can wear a size 2-4. I'm thin, but I have curves, so the idea of me having an ED seems ludicrious. IMO, I can usually see that a person is too thin, too fat, or is indulging in unhealthy behaviors; being thin or fat doesn't automatically mean ED. I don't agree with all your arguments, but I will say I get where you're coming from on that.
It's hurtful for people to comment on your appearance, honestly, and it's even worse when they assume other stuff about people with eating disorders. You're treated like you're stupid or 5 years old, when usually an ED is much more complex than just over or undereating.
Back to the idea of the models, I hope all the appearance-related industries look closer at showing healthy women. I think that's what it boils down to. Maybe it won't affect you or me (I don't give a damn what other people look like in comparison to me, and I don't hear too much discussion about models, beyond the older ones who aren't really involved in it any more), but I hope it helps the people in the industry.
MisStarrlight
Well-known member
Quote:
Exactly
Extremely underweight girls can't be models...the same way that naturally overweight girls can't be either. How is that a double standard?
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
Re: a visual assessment. It's a standard. It's applied. It's across the boards no questions asked. Drug tests should be mandatory anyway, IMO, but that's just me. As far as people losing work because they're not at the standard set for their chosen vocation: Wah. Life sucks. Reassess yourself and your career choice and go from there. |
Exactly
Extremely underweight girls can't be models...the same way that naturally overweight girls can't be either. How is that a double standard?
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
Your not understanding the issue correctly. The correct statement would be: Extremely underweight girls can't be plus sized models...the same way that naturally overweight girls can't be small sized models. That is not a double standard.
The problem is, that a totally healthy girl who's personal body shape and distribution puts her under the magic number 18 is denied a job for no real reason. She is totally healthy, and has no eating disorder or any kind. She was just blessed with a small frame and a high metabolism giving her the current ideal body shape for today's beauty standard. However, as beautiful as she is, she is forced to eigther pack on the pounds, or find work in another field.
If they said to a extremely underweight girl, "You dont look healthy with your pelvis, joints, and ribcage poking through your skin, so were not going to hire you. Come back when you have gained some weight." THAT would be fair.
That is the correct way to handle the issue. BMI isn't 100% accurate, thus it is a bad system to use. Models aren't your "average" woman, they are typically above average in all catagories when it comes to beauty standards. Thats why they are model's and your average girl, isn't.
| Originally Posted by MisStarrlight
Exactly Extremely underweight girls can't be models...the same way that naturally overweight girls can't be either. How is that a double standard? |
Your not understanding the issue correctly. The correct statement would be: Extremely underweight girls can't be plus sized models...the same way that naturally overweight girls can't be small sized models. That is not a double standard.
The problem is, that a totally healthy girl who's personal body shape and distribution puts her under the magic number 18 is denied a job for no real reason. She is totally healthy, and has no eating disorder or any kind. She was just blessed with a small frame and a high metabolism giving her the current ideal body shape for today's beauty standard. However, as beautiful as she is, she is forced to eigther pack on the pounds, or find work in another field.
If they said to a extremely underweight girl, "You dont look healthy with your pelvis, joints, and ribcage poking through your skin, so were not going to hire you. Come back when you have gained some weight." THAT would be fair.
That is the correct way to handle the issue. BMI isn't 100% accurate, thus it is a bad system to use. Models aren't your "average" woman, they are typically above average in all catagories when it comes to beauty standards. Thats why they are model's and your average girl, isn't.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Actually, models aren't 'above average' in appearance, and rarely are conventionally pretty. They simply have a striking combination of features (a la Gisele) or one or two features that really stand out.
The number of models who are "healthily underweight" and continue to lose weight is too high.
BMI is a standard that's being applied. Like I said, where are these healthy models who are being turned away? I've googled and alltheweb searched and not found runway models who aren't too thin.
The number of models who are "healthily underweight" and continue to lose weight is too high.
BMI is a standard that's being applied. Like I said, where are these healthy models who are being turned away? I've googled and alltheweb searched and not found runway models who aren't too thin.
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