Split - Barbie: race issues, image issues

[docmaria]

I am of Greek heritage and have friends of Armenian background. I may be biased but I certainly don't have a victim mentality.

There is racism in Greece and there is racism in Turkey. Not everyone in these countries is racist and I'm sure that some people are indeed colour-blind but to state that there is no racism in an entire country is strangely naive.

As for Armenian genocide being a recent French media ploy - it was actually used by a famous Austrian/German as propaganda several decades ago in the famous quote: "Who remembers the Armenians?"

 

[Arabella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by macjunkieTURKEY maybe this is because i live in turkey and there is no racism here This is beyond mean and rude. Ottoman Empire is a role model for diversity. And there isnt such a thing as Armenian Genocide. In Turkey Armenians and Turks live in a perfect harmony. Its some political stuff between Turkey and France. Since we Turks arent Christian France doesnt want us in EU. ironicly this is racist indeed. And again if there is genocide its not the nation its some politicians who did it during WW1 and its not due to racial stuff. It was war. And Armenians was rebelling by the support of Russia. OK this is slowly getting complicated i will end it here but i am really upset. I tried to say that we Turks never ever judged people with their colors and i cant understand why people ever do this since this is very absurd. my english isnt perfect this is probably why you couldnt get me but you are way to quick to judge you should realise the fact mac is a multinational corporation and people worldwide write their opinions on Specktra forums and not everybody has to speak english perfect.

That's not true. There was an Armenian genocide. My great grandmother is a survivor. She had 4 brothers who were all killed and so was her mother. She was only 6 years old, but she still remembers how the Turks came to her town and butchered everyone. She and her mother were the only ones left in her family. If there was no genocide, then what happened to to all those people? Why would my great grandmother and other survivors lie about such horrible things? Sorry if this offends you, but your government is brainwashing you and denying the murders of 2 million people. The Nazis were worse, but at least they admitted that they killed the Jews. Anyway, this thread has nothing to do with politics so I'll end there. Besides, nothing you can say will change my mind about Turks and the Armenian genocide and I probably won't change your's either....and the only reason Armenians live in harmony with the Turks is that they're afraid to speak up because they'll be sent to jail or killed.

Edit: I just wanted to add something about the "victim mentality" thing. I don't think Armenians have a victim mentality. We just want the world to recognize our genocide. If someone started killing people of your race and then denied it, wouldn't you want the world to know the truth?

 

[lemurian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arabella Edit: I just wanted to add something about the "victim mentality" thing. I don't think Armenians have a victim mentality. We just want the world to recognize our genocide. If someone started killing people of your race and then denied it, wouldn't you want the world to know the truth?

Since I brought up "victim mentality", I want to make clear that I was referring to those who don't like Barbie because "she's a WASP", and those who insist that there is racism EVERYWHERE. There is nary a country on Earth with race problems like the USA, where judgements are made solely on skin color, and not necessarily ethnicity. Obviously there are problems based on ethnic and religious differences worldwide, but this is something much different than was being discussed initially. I don't want to make light of prejudice, but I do think that people sometimes go overboard with the accusations without using the old noodle

 

[amoona]

Ok I'm a strong support in recognizing the Armenian genocide. I have grow up around many Armenian friends, my boyfriend is Assyrian and his people were also killed in the genocide and I'm Palestinian so I sympathize with anyone who goes through a genocide because my people have and are continue to going through it.

BUT .... this is a thread about the MAC and Barbie collaboration. I honestly think it's a good discussion because MANY people don't recognize the genocide but that's something for the Deep Thoughts section.

 

[docmaria]

Apologies for the complete derailment but Barbie's multicultural personae just brings out these discussions.

Barbie doesn't make me feel insecure - I'm as thin, as beautiful and as full of air as the next doll and I will be ALL OVER this collection just as I was all over Disney and Playboy. Because I'm an LE ADDICT and for no other reason.

 

[Arabella]

I think it would be a good idea if one of the mods would create a separate Barbie thread in the Deep Thoughts section and move all of the comments about racism, feminism, etc. in there. To those of you who are only trying to discuss make up, I apologize for derailing the thread, but I feel that those issues are much more important than lipgloss and eyeshadow.

 

[Shimmer]

MAC and Barbie...Societal impact of the collaboration

Taking the ideas from this thread expound upon them here please. The relevant posts will be seperated from the other thread later, and added to this one.

 

[amoona]

First of all, good idea.

Personally I don't understand why there is this huge issue surrounding the whole Barbie doll and the collaboration with MAC. I feel like it's a copout to blame a lifeless doll for someone's insecurities.

I played with Barbie's up until I was in middle school and I have never had issues with myself. No I wasn't the prettiest girl in school, I was actually teased a lot by the boys because I had thick eyebrows and a Middle Eastern nose. I was also overweight from the 8th-11th grade when the rest of my life I was very skinny. However I never had self-esteem issues. I was always very happy with myself and I am still this way today.

Barbie didn't make me feel like I needed to be tall, blonde, pretty with everything being "perfect". To blame your own (or other children's) self-esteem issues on a doll is silly. It has to do with the LIVING BREATHING PEOPLE who surround you or the child.

My family loved me endlessly when I was young and my mother did nothing but boost my self-esteem. Even if she was a single mother she was always involved in my life. My uncles (her brothers) were always involved in my life.

This country has become way too sensitive and if a kid cries it's the end of the world. Barbie isn't racists, Barbie isn't a damaging to a child ... BARBIE IS A TOY! Get over it people. There are more serious things in this world that are damaging children like drugs, guns, under funded schools ... the list goes on. Barbie shouldn't be on that list.

 

[Shimmer]

I can't disagree with any of that.

 

[Simply Elegant]

I don't think Barbie should be the scapegoat of other's insecurities either. Lots of other dolls are out there, but few of them get as much criticism as Barbie. I don't see why people make a big deal about it. Little girls and some boys like playing with them. I don't think they really analyze the doll and what it can do to them. It's just another plaything among their other toys. People are just looking for something, or someone, to blame for their problems. If someone is insecure, I'm thinking it would be from others around them, not a doll that can't say anything back to you.

 

[Deirdre]

I think that people's extreme reactions to an inanimate object are quite telling. Barbie seems to be a huge mirror for many people's self esteem issues.

My mom was a feminist, and organized many events in the 70s in the interest of women's rights. I had three Barbies. I thought they were beautiful, but also fantasy. My mom taught me the difference between fantasy and reality. It was one of the better lessons I ever was given, and it was repeated in a myriad of situations. It has helped me keep things in perspective, and left me confident in myself.

Barbie doesn't scare me! I am looking forward to the results of this collaboration.

 

[Hawkeye]

I used to be enamoured (SP?) by barbie. I thought she was gorgeous.

But I was also a tom boy. (Yeah...being raised by guys-learning how to fight, play ball-hell to this day, I can drink any guy under the table, cuss like a sailor and spit...NOTHING Barbie stands for!) but I also learned a lot of stuff from Barbie.

It really is telling how people react to this collaboration. I mean I think it is a cop out only because they also had one with Disney etc and it's a Yawn thing. But-I have never been a fan of the fanatical feminist movement. I think the feminist movement was a good thing but then there began the fanaticism and that in itself was not very beneficial.

So yes, though I disagree with it only because its a yawn factor for me (heck most of mac is getting there with me)-I think it may be a good thing.

 

[IslandGirl77]

I personally had Barbies growing up, but I never wished or dreamed to become or be like her. I think it's just a matter of you can't please everybody. If they made Barbie more PC, somebody would still have something to say about it. I can see why MAC wanted Barbie, she rocks the funky blue eyeshadow with the red lipstick. LOL Just kidding. I don't know, it doesn't really move me. But, hey if you dont' like....then dont' buy it.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Fanatics ruin every valid point they make.

I understand where some of the POVs against Barbie come from, but at the end of the day, I'm a feminist who grew up with many Barbies. I never felt the need to have Barbie's measurements, because my parents never made me think that's what I should look like. I think Barbie could possibly reinforce ideas of beauty that other project (for instance, people at school making fun of someone for being flatchested), but I don't fault her entirely. IMO, if you're having negative body/beauty issues, there's a lot more going on than just a doll's presence. Someone or something else is up.

For the race issues, I think the fact there is x ethnicity Barbie shows that Mattel is trying. Why her face looks the same more or less is beyond me (cutting costs, not wanting to be accused of playing up ethnic stereotypes, keeping the Barbie image in front of you), but I think the company does put forth some effort.

MAC is a company for everyone. Barbie, if they go with the classic blonde one, wouldn't be the first or last blonde haired rep for it.

I think we'll have to wait to see what's produced before we actually can say anything about it. I mean, the Dita Von Teese collection, at first thought, shouldn't work for most people, because most people aren't that pale.

Personally, I'm surprised Mattel is pairing up with MAC; I've only seen designer Barbies and the ones made to be characters. It should be interesting.

 

[Hawkeye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark Fanatics ruin every valid point they make.

How true that is.

 

[Kiseki]

Ok, so maybe I'm a guy and I'm viewing this from a very different perspective.

First, being white doesn't make you Aryan, quite honestly the comment is way over the top.

Second, I grew up playing with He-Man in the eighties, if you remember there were NO characters with african features in He-Man, but it didn't make me think less of the race per se or not be aware of them. Also, I didn't want to be a steroid junkie like He-Man when I grew up.

I've never seen Barbie as a WASP icon, for me, it's just a doll, these days, like many of you said, she comes in all races and colors, maybe it was racist back in the days when she was created, it isn't now. So yes, she has a disproportionate body, but what about Bratz? And W.I.T.C.H. and so many others? Aren't our children supposed to tell the difference between toys and reality? Isn't it an educator's or parent's duty to teach children the difference?

I've always viewed Barbie as an ideal of freedom, Barbie could be whatever any young girl wishes to be, from a Princess, to a Mermaid, to a Teacher, a Scientist, a Doctor, an Austronat... the list goes on and on and on. That's what Barbie symbolizes for me, the idea that anyone has the right to become whatever he or she so desires.

You could call me naive and I'll accept the fact that I never thought much about the topic. But I think that sometimes (and please to take this the wrong way), prejudice is in the eye of the beholder, things have the power that we give him.

One has commented that Barbie isn't black, one of her friend's is black. So from that point of view, if I'm not black, but one of my friends is black that makes me a racist? Yes, I'm quite aware that I am wildly exagerating.

Finally, I see MAC's colaboration with Barbie yet another release from MAC, if you hate it so much (and have every right to do so), don't buy it and ignore it.

 

[MAC_Pixie04]

Quote:

Originally Posted by antirazor until rather recently only white women were depicted as beautiful. the first black model was Beverly Peele in the 80s. 1980 is also the same year that mattel introduced the first black barbie. ever. the 80s as in not even 3 decades ago. [side note: mac was pretty much on the cutting edge of this, starting up in 84 with the motto: "all races, all sexes, all ages." ] Disney did not make a cartoon movie with a non-white protagonist (excluding the jungle book in 1967) until Aladdin came out in 1992 and they have yet to make an animated movie where the protagonist is black.

OMG I've always been bothered by that. Supposedly, The Lion King is supposed to be their connection to the African/African American community because of it's setting...buuutttt only 3 or 4 of the characters were voiced by Black People. I dunno how Jonathan Taylor Thomas (Young Simba) or Matthew Broderick (Adult Simba) substitutes for a Black character.

I'm still waiting for Disney to be a little more culturally aware.

 

[redambition]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiseki I've never seen Barbie as a WASP icon, for me, it's just a doll, these days, like many of you said, she comes in all races and colors, maybe it was racist back in the days when she was created, it isn't now. So yes, she has a disproportionate body, but what about Bratz? And W.I.T.C.H. and so many others? Aren't our children supposed to tell the difference between toys and reality? Isn't it an educator's or parent's duty to teach children the difference? I've always viewed Barbie as an ideal of freedom, Barbie could be whatever any young girl wishes to be, from a Princess, to a Mermaid, to a Teacher, a Scientist, a Doctor, an Austronat... the list goes on and on and on. That's what Barbie symbolizes for me, the idea that anyone has the right to become whatever he or she so desires.

I see it this way as well. so few children's toys are actually realistic. why pick on just barbie? pick any one of the children's dolls (for boys or girls) and you could argue that they are encouraging something bad. it's up to the parents to highlight that they toy is just that - a toy. not an ideal, role model or realistic representation of anything.

 

[Lady_MAC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Pixie04 OMG I've always been bothered by that. Supposedly, The Lion King is supposed to be their connection to the African/African American community because of it's setting...buuutttt only 3 or 4 of the characters were voiced by Black People. I dunno how Jonathan Taylor Thomas (Young Simba) or Matthew Broderick (Adult Simba) substitutes for a Black character. I'm still waiting for Disney to be a little more culturally aware.

And who were the characters "voiced by black people". The villains of course. Fuck Disney. They have such a racist/sexist past and present, that I'd have to be a fool to give them my money.

All of the movies that have had people of colour have be so racist that they have had to remove scenes/change lyrics. Again, f'em .

 

[Shimmer]

What a REALLY old example of Disney's work.
I mean really old.

What about MGM, Warner Bros., etc?
Didn't the lady who chased Tom and Jerry around with the broom have black feet (we never saw her face, that I recall)?
What about lambasting Gone With the Wind for portraying Mammy and Prissy the way the studios did? Margerite (SP?) Mitchell certainly didn't portray them that way in her book.

Allowing the past to continue to hurt, or cause tension, is to give the past power over the present.

Remember the past? ABSOLUTELY. Remember what was, and move on to what should be in the future. One doesn't have to be angry in order to remember.