Tomb of Jesus- Found? Not Found?

[MAC is love]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Perhaps God needs a bigger distribution list? As millions of illeterate people who dont have the $ to buy a bible (or a Barnes and Noble Bookstore at the village square) or the education to read one are apparently missing out. Of course, it's impossible to believe that he would have given them another way to get to heaven, independant of Western Beliefs. You know, ones that dont require giveing the Church money they dont have, and being a member of the book club.

God has said that no person has an "excuse" for living a sinful life. He has said that ALL people will realize His existence in some way or another, whether it's through nature or something. I find that hard to accept, even though I'm a Christian. But I do believe that God would make Himself known to EVERYONE, in His own way.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Well, I think part of the problem with the Bible is that it was written by a bunch of different people, which accounts for the inconsistencies in what God is like. I also wonder what kind of translation went on, which changes meanings or losing the true intent, anyway.

I imagine some of it goes into whether people have different standards for superbeings vs. mortals, too. I don't know how to justify the jealousy part, but the judging and punishment part sound like what a parent does. It goes into how you see/use judging and judgmental. Judging in and of itself isn't bad; you make judgments every single moment of your life, like whether or not to buy something. Being judgmental to me is when you form an opinion without being properly informed, like "Oh, she's stupid. I can just tell by looking at her." God, because s/he is all knowing according to texts, wouldn't be the latter.

I personally think that a lot of editing had been done to the Bible to fit people's agendas and to allow control over the masses, but that's just me.

Some of the details that you listed about God remind me of those of the gods and goddesses of Roman and Greek mythology.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Beauty Mark I don't know how to justify the jealousy part

Well as someone mentioned the jealousy part was part of old testiment God.... Apparently old testament God and New Testament God are two completely different people =p Figure that one out...

But with regards to God being a jealous God... You have to look at the time period the stories in the Bible were taking place... This is Pre Jesus Christ, and there were many other religions that were currently in practice.

Exodus 34
Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their gods and make sacrifice to their gods, and one of them invites you and you eat of his sacrifice, and you take of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters play the harlot with their gods and make your sons play the harlot with their gods.

So as a newly emerging religion, in a time where polytheism was fairly common, and where while you were traveling around you could come into contact with many many different religions really depending on the people you were currently around. It was necessary for God to be jealous, and not tolerate worshiping other Gods, as humans are fickle and change their minds easily. Looks at Moses when he was getting the 10 commandments ( there was 15, but he dropped 1 tablet ;p )... The people with him were already worshiping idols in his absense...

Anyways... my explanation isn't perfect, as it's been a while since I was in religious studies... Feel free to correct me if you see something that I had blatently misconstrued.

 

[Hawkeye]

See during the old testiment God was out to kill everybody except the Isrealites. He only concerned himself with them (Supposidly). Then Jesus comes along and then he decides to add more people to those who accept him.

OK Yeah thats crazy. But the Jeolousy thing- yeah it's kind of like someone gets if their boyfriend or something was talking to another person.

Seriously thought, I totally agree with Beauty Mark- we cant really trust the Bible and all that it says because man wrote it and man is 100% fallible. Who knows- maybe God is indeed a jeolous God but all throughout the Old testiment he wanted other people to come along and hang out with the isrealites but they refused to abide by his customs but he still treated them as guests? Or maybe just maybe, (hold on this will blow your socks off with this crazy idea I'm coming up with) these cultures that that sing and do whatever for false idols knowing that they think they are praising a higher being and doing their best for that- maybe God will say- well they do KNOW I'm here and they do TRY their best etc and they do try to make attonement for their sins....OK I'll let them in.

I mean the Bible just as beauty mark has said of course a man is going to change it to fit his own agenda, even the RC church did. I mean its one of those things that you have to realize that there comes a point in time when you have to have a personal relationship vs a "by the book" relationship.

OR as I love to put it:

The Pharasees. They were always trying to catch Jesus with the law. With the BOOK. But Jesus was always like-" grow up" and did his own thing. He even told them to their face that God is more concerned with the hearts of man and the circumstances than he is with the BOOK and the LAW.

But we as human we don't want to accept that. We have HAVE to let our religions, our hearts, our faiths be dictated by the Book or the Law and God forbid we actually look at peoples hearts, where they have been and where they are going. So instead of practicing love and faith, and humility and showing by actions we instead insist on shoving it in each others faces telling people OUR judgements of what WE feel is being said rather than what God has placed in our hearts of love and understanding.

*gets off soap box*

 

[MAC is love]

The Bible does say that God is a jealous, angry God. But aren't there good and bad ways to be jealous and angry? For example...a girl comes up to your boyfriend and is clearly flirting with him, like she's touching his arm, laughing at everything he says, etc. Wouldn't you be a tiny bit jealous if she gave him her number? Then there's bad jealousy. The same situation happens and you get her # from your BF & call her & start cussing her out & threatning her. That's a little too over the top. Good & bad anger, same thing. If a parent gets angry w/ their kid for ditching school all week, that's not really considered to be bad anger. However if you want nothing less than a 95% from your kid on every test he takes, & he one day gets a 94.5% so you start beating your kid...you're taking your anger a little bit too far. So yes, God is all those things metioned. But God doesn't show anger and jealousy in "bad" way.

 

[Beauty Mark]

I think the way it's written, it sounds like it's an overall qualifying characteristic, which is really negative. I don't jealousy or anger are great to classify yourself as or feelings to have as is, but they are definitely understandable at times. However, I think it's really negative to describe yourself as such in overall manner. I hope if someone describes me, I'm not described as angry, because I hope that I'm not angry to the point that's how people think to portray me.

The anger/jealousy thing is an example of one of aspects of the Bible that I'm not sure was properly translated.

 

[Hawkeye]

lol true. and i have a feeling if God was all angry and everything- nobody would be on here discussing it. We would all *KNOW* he was angry.

 

[YvetteJeannine]

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Originally Posted by MAC is love The Bible does say that God is a jealous, angry God. But aren't there good and bad ways to be jealous and angry? For example...a girl comes up to your boyfriend and is clearly flirting with him, like she's touching his arm, laughing at everything he says, etc. Wouldn't you be a tiny bit jealous if she gave him her number? Then there's bad jealousy. The same situation happens and you get her # from your BF & call her & start cussing her out & threatning her. That's a little too over the top. Good & bad anger, same thing. If a parent gets angry w/ their kid for ditching school all week, that's not really considered to be bad anger. However if you want nothing less than a 95% from your kid on every test he takes, & he one day gets a 94.5% so you start beating your kid...you're taking your anger a little bit too far. So yes, God is all those things metioned. But God doesn't show anger and jealousy in "bad" way.

That's something I wanted to clarify: If God is supposedly NOT human...and God is supposedly *perfect*, then He would not be subject to the very HUMAN emotions of jealousy, anger, and rage (no matter how "justifiable")....Those would be human traits. If God is perfect, then God is all-knowing, and all-loving....He does not get jealous....He does not feel angry at sombody for deciding they want to be a Wiccan (or whatever...just one example).

To me, it just doesn't make any sense that humans attach HUMAN qualities to God...who is NOT a human....WE are the ones who have 'discovered' rage, anger, jealousy....God is love....ALL LOVE...ALL THE TIME...We cannot have it both ways...Either God is a non-perfect entity (clearly not what most believe) whom DOES get bitter, jealous and angry (angry enough to damn people to Hellfire forever); because if he's feeling those human emotions...he is not perfect... OR, God is a perfect being that is a mass of love and knowledge, that DOES NOT have these imperfect emotions....I prefer the latter...but that's obviously just my opinion....It's what I choose to believe....Not only because it makes sense to me (and it's a LOT more comforting)...but because I simply cannot comprehend it any other way

 

[Raerae]

Love is a human emotion as well. Just a fyi

 

[Hawkeye]

God must be like Spock then- functioning on pure logic?

 

[YvetteJeannine]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Love is a human emotion as well. Just a fyi

Humans DO feel love...that's true...but IMO, love is pure and perfect....so therefore in my mind, that's what I believe God to be made from....Pure, perfect love

Hawkeye: We all *know* Spock to be above human

 

[Raerae]

Maybe Spock is God?

Perhaps when people saw Jesus rising from the dead, it was actually Spock beaming up to the Enterprise in Orbit over the Earth.

 

[Shimmer]

2 things:
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Originally Posted by raerae If all of us, regardless of having a proclaimed faith, will have to stand in front of your Holy God, I'm confident that the fact that because I have led a positive life, helped people when I can, and haven't caused harm to others, and dont hold malice in my heart towards any other individuals, will stand for much more than professing a faith out of fear of not measuring up.

That's a big negatory ghostrider. Either option is not the "right" one according to the New Testament. Just "saying" "I'm a Christian weeeeeeeeee!" isn't enough. And, just saying "Hey. Look dude. I was a good person. No really, look, see, I didn't kick any puppies or eat any babies or anything like that, check it, see?" isn't going to score you points in the afterlife either. Matthew (I believe) clearly states the way to salvation from an eternity in Hell.

Second point...it's been mostly civil thus far, I'd like it to stay that way, only because just FOR ONCE I'd like to have a thread about religion not degenerate into name calling and e posturing.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Matthew (I believe) clearly states the way to salvation from an eternity in Hell.

Mathew is a human, and thus imperfect. As a result, it's believeable that he misinterpreted Gods will. Or more realistically, that whoever wrote down Matthew's words years later, decided that having an open interpretation of the bible would be to much control to give up. Why let people believe they can get into heaven by just being good people, when you can create a rigid set of rules, and use fear (hell) to keep a large portion of the impovished (at the time) population in line.

This is why imho, organized religion loses much of it's spiritual appeal as a demographic develops and gains more power and wealth. Even if you look at the demographic of the United States, typically the less powerful and less wealthy demographics, tend to be more religious, then the wealthier (unless it's a wealthy individual using religion as a reason to keep power and control). AKA politicians using religion as a way to identify with lower and middle class (majority) voters. Thats why your poorer parts of the nation (rural areas, and inner cities) tend to cling to the bible more than the wealthier parts of the cities and suburbs. As humans we need a reason to justify why our lives are the way they are, and also need hope that they will improve.

God provides a reason why life is hard (Gods testing you, or whatever, plenty of verses of the bible deal with hardships), and justification for when things get better. It wasn't because of ME that this wonderful thing happened, it was because God gave it to me. And even if life doesn't get better, as long as i remain true to the lord, I'll have heaven to look forward too when I die.

Thats also why as life gets easier, and less difficult, generations start attributing less of their fortune in life to God, and more to their own abilities. Which is why imho religion and it's importance begins to decline as a population gains wealth and power. When you poor, you pray to God for a break, and when it happens, you thank God for your good fortune and give credit to being a good christian, muslim, jew, whatever. When your born into a household that doesn't have hardship, you have less to pray to God for. Praying to God to find a good deal on a Gucci Purse seems kinds silly, dont you think?

 

[Hawkeye]

LOL Jesus said " Live Long and Prosper Yo!" ROFLMAO

And the other three at one point people saw Jesus talking to- it was really Kirk and McCoy! ROFLMAO

OH MY GOD I'm so going to hell for that.

But it's just so dang funny.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Mathew is a human, and thus imperfect. As a result, it's believeable that he misinterpreted Gods will. Or more realistically, that whoever wrote down Matthew's words years later, decided that having an open interpretation of the bible would be to much control to give up. Why let people believe they can get into heaven by just being good people, when you can create a rigid set of rules, and use fear (hell) to keep a large portion of the impovished (at the time) population in line.

*shrug* Those are your beliefs, and no one's chastising you for them.
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This is why imho, organized religion loses much of it's spiritual appeal as a demographic develops and gains more power and wealth. Even if you look at the demographic of the United States, typically the less powerful and less wealthy demographics, tend to be more religious, then the wealthier (unless it's a wealthy individual using religion as a reason to keep power and control). AKA politicians using religion as a way to identify with lower and middle class (majority) voters. Thats why your poorer parts of the nation (rural areas, and inner cities) tend to cling to the bible more than the wealthier parts of the cities and suburbs. As humans we need a reason to justify why our lives are the way they are, and also need hope that they will improve.

Obviously being poor and rurally located means people are incapable of intelligent or rational thought. My mistake.

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God provides a reason why life is hard (Gods testing you, or whatever, plenty of verses of the bible deal with hardships), and justification for when things get better. It wasn't because of ME that this wonderful thing happened, it was because God gave it to me. And even if life doesn't get better, as long as i remain true to the lord, I'll have heaven to look forward too when I die.

Honestly, you can take the word and skew it anyway you like. As you quote chapter and verse to conform to your lack of beliefs, I assure you I can find, quote, and provide chapter and verse as to both why your beliefs are "wrong" and why mine are "right". That's with any subject though. Data is easily manipulated.
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Thats also why as life gets easier, and less difficult, generations start attributing less of their fortune in life to God, and more to their own abilities. Which is why imho religion and it's importance begins to decline as a population gains wealth and power. When you poor, you pray to God for a break, and when it happens, you thank God for your good fortune and give credit to being a good christian, muslim, jew, whatever. When your born into a household that doesn't have hardship, you have less to pray to God for. Praying to God to find a good deal on a Gucci Purse seems kinds silly, dont you think?

You'd be surprised how many quietly wealthy families have steadfast faith, but that d oesn't matter because you've chosen your path. You've set yourself out to say "This is it. I'm right, you're wrong, no one else who contradicts my perspective has an iota of credibility."
That's your approach to these subjects. Which is why, though your points could be fleshed out and somewhat interesting, they're not. You're not attempting to debate and see the other side's perspective. You're simply stating something as unequivocal, when it's not.
Faith isn't black and white.
Faith isn't easy.
It's not something that is wholly explainable on a message board. Faith is something you find within yourself and have to reconcile with yourself. You...as a person...have chosen your path. You've been given information (Biblical) and have to decide what to do with that information.
It's not my job, nor any other Christian's job, to shove Christianity or any other religion down your throat. It's unreasonable to you that there are certain standards one must be held to to have faith, but it's stated quite clearly several times in the NT. You've been given the information, you've decided what to do with it. Arguing it with me is only a manner of seeking validation that you're right.
*shrug*

The topic could be interesting, but posts like this aren't what makes it interesting, because posts like this only highlight that your thought process isn't one of discovery and education, but one of proving you're right.

 

[Beauty Mark]

I don't pray, but I've always liked the school of thought where you pray as means of thanks only or to relieve the burden of others and not to ask for stuff for yourself. I know several people who pray for pretty much everything, even ridiculous stuff, like praying that it doesn't rain so they can go to party or praying that they get into a school when they never the work to justify that. Then again, I know people who spend time praying for the sick, the poor, and anyone in pain. My own personal feelings about prayer are that if God does play a role in our lives (I don't believe that God does, besides creation of the beginning of the universe), s/he/it/they knows what's best for me and I shouldn't ask or question that.

I don't think that faith is necessarily irrational (I believe that something exists, for what I consider to be fairly rational reasons), but I do see it sometimes as a means of survival, if that makes sense. If you're living in absolute hell, no matter how much money you have or don't have, I think it would be nice to believe that something really, really good will happen at some point if you are an upright person and believe in God. Even if you are living a good life, it's so scary to a lot of people that there's a possibility life has no meaning or that there is no God or heaven.

Faith in life in general is what gets most of through our worst moments. I generally don't have a problem with faith or prayer.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Obviously being poor and rurally located means people are incapable of intelligent or rational thought. My mistake.

Believing in religion isn't about not having intelligent rational thought. As many of the pro religion posts in this thread illustrate, which are both rational and intelligent. Not sure where you picked that up from. As I never said religious individuals are dumb or irrational. I just merely pointed out that typically, the less you have, the more apt you are to believe in something that promises more.

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Honestly, you can take the word and skew it anyway you like. As you quote chapter and verse to conform to your lack of beliefs, I assure you I can find, quote, and provide chapter and verse as to both why your beliefs are "wrong" and why mine are "right". That's with any subject though. Data is easily manipulated.

Where did I quote chapters of the bible in my post to say I dont believe? I've only quoted a section of the bible that explains why God was jealous in a previous post. And my interpretation of why he would be described that way. I never mentioned anything about my opinion on religion in that post.

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You'd be surprised how many quietly wealthy families have steadfast faith, but that d oesn't matter because you've chosen your path.

I never said wealthy families dont have faith. I said that organized religion loses it's appeal. The Catholic Church has lost a lot of influence in the United States, and other developed countries, it doesn't mean that less people believe in Jesus, or the Bible. I'm surprised Shimmer, usually you read closer than that.

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You've set yourself out to say "This is it. I'm right, you're wrong, no one else who contradicts my perspective has an iota of credibility."

It's up to the supporting party to present points as to why their opinion/belief/whatever is correct, not for the opposition party to do it for them.

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That's your approach to these subjects. Which is why, though your points could be fleshed out and somewhat interesting, they're not. You're not attempting to debate and see the other side's perspective.

Actually I'll have to disagree with you on this point adamantly. All things considered, the community here on specktra is extremely varied, and vocal about their beliefs, and many are very willing to defend those beliefs. You dont learn about other people by having the same opinion. You learn about people by questioning their beliefs and opinions and having them defend those beliefs.

A prosecution lawyer doesn't win a case by agreeing with the defense, in the same way, the defense doesn't defend their client by agreeing with the prosecution. While on a subject like faith, you might not be able to change my opinion, i do enjoy learning about why other people have faith.

The problem is, when people are afraid to defend their beliefs, because they are afraid to have someone question them. People dont have to change their opinion on a subject for a thread to be successful. As long as people are learing about why people have their opinions, I think the discussion overall is positive. Opinions dont change overnight, but they do change over time as you learn more about someone or a topic.

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It's not my job, nor any other Christian's job, to shove Christianity or any other religion down your throat.

Many do though. The fact that there is only one "legit" way to get to "heaven" is essentially shoving organized religion down my throat as you so eloquently stated. As a result there really can't be any compromise on a subject like this, because organized religion is unable to compromise, because it can't compromise. Religion/Faith is Black or White. You eigther believe in Jesus as your savior, and follow the bible as it's interpreted by the church, or you go to hell. There is no middle groud, no compromise, no willingness to bend. Organized religion loses power if there is compromise.

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It's unreasonable to you that there are certain standards one must be held to to have faith, but it's stated quite clearly several times in the NT.

The NT as interpreted by who? The Church, or by me?

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You've been given the information, you've decided what to do with it. Arguing it with me is only a manner of seeking validation that you're right. *shrug*

I've never said I was right, I'm simply offering a different interpretation. The fact alone that there are so MANY different interpretations/versions of the bible, clearly shows that there is more than one way into heaven.

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The topic could be interesting, but posts like this aren't what makes it interesting, because posts like this only highlight that your thought process isn't one of discovery and education, but one of proving you're right.

Actually, my opinion is probably the only flexible one in the thread. In fact it's the only one that can be. Because as you already said, the NT clearly states there is only one way, so as a adamant believer, you can't keep your faith, while having a flexible opinion, because organized religion isn't flexible.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Raerae post

Many people have different views about what a Christian is, however the bible is quite clear on this point. Let us first explore what a Christian is not.


It is not simply someone who goes to church. Going to church will not make you a Christian. By the same token when you visit a Kentucky Fried Chicken shop you do not become a chicken leg!


It is also not only living a good life; there are a lot of good people in the world, who are not Christians.


Many also believe that because we live in a so-called "Christian country" that this by default makes us Christians.


These unfortunately are all untrue.



You'll find that I'm one of the more "tolerant" Christians you'll ever meet or engage with. Why? Because I'm not so presumptuous as to attempt to force someone to adhere to my beliefs. I don't believe in twisting anyone's arm, or making them listen to something they're not ready to hear. I don't believe in condemning anyone for their choices, regardless of how wrong they may be in my perception on a theological scale. I don't believe in forcing my faith or my beliefs on anyone.
Your implication was/is that only poor unsophisticated people have faith, which is wholly untrue.
And, I'm sure, there are numerous people who are more than willing to defend their chosen faith. Islam, Catholicism, Christianity, Mormonism (ok, maybe not Mormons...but that's another story...), etc. There are people of pretty much every faith on this board, as you said, but perhaps, just maybe, many of them are tired of being ridiculed and vilified online by people who have no intention of ever seeking faith.
It's one thing to question because faith or answers are being sought. It's another entirely to question simply because the subject matter is so fluid that it's never explainable the same way.

Answers to questions here.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Your implication was/is that only poor unsophisticated people have faith, which is wholly untrue.

Actually my implication was that poorer/unsophisticated (to use your words) people are more likeley to believe in an organized religion. I can explain the difference between organized and unorganized religion if I need to, but I think it's fairly obvious. I'm not talking about lack of faith. I thought I was fairly clear about that in my previous posts, apparently not.


And, I'm sure, there are numerous people who are more than willing to defend their chosen faith. Islam, Catholicism, Christianity, Mormonism (ok, maybe not Mormons...but that's another story...), etc. There are people of pretty much every faith on this board, as you said, but perhaps, just maybe, many of them are tired of being ridiculed and vilified online by people who have no intention of ever seeking faith.

Again, this isn't about faith. Perhaps again that is why your confused, as your on a totally different subject.

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It's one thing to question because faith or answers are being sought. It's another entirely to question simply because the subject matter is so fluid that it's never explainable the same way.

Faith response, since you brought it up.

I question people on their beliefs, not to vilifie them, but to attempt to better understand the inconsistancy in everyone's beliefs/ideas. The only thing people of faith can agree upon is that their belief is the only correct one.