Vegan couple sentenced to life over baby's death

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 That's the problem though, they won't even admit that their actions caused the baby to starve to death, it's obvious they haven't learned anything. They are insistent that because they "fed" him, they didn't starve him.

Well if they were feeding the baby, it's not starving. And if the defense testimony is to be believed, and the applejuice acted as a diaretic, you could "feed" the baby all day long, and it's not going to get any nutrients from it. Or if they were feeding it food that lacked sufficient nutrients, which they did. That would give the impression to a new parent that your doing your job.

They also state she did breastfeed in that link as well.

Just as an aside, my cat has a stomache/intestinal problem, that gives him severe diarreha and causes him to vomit. He eats like a PIG though. But still loses weight. Because everything goes right through him, and he doesn't get much from it. Are we starving our cat?

And if parents are now liable for the nutrition of their kids, parents that allows their children to get obese or anarexic, and have health complications as a result, should be liable as well. Jail time for everyone!

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by triccc How could anyone be so ill informed.

It's not a requirement to be educated on child care, to have a baby.

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First of all a baby that young cannot have apple juice. Even if it is organic it has too much natural sugars for an infant. Secondly..apple juice could give the child diarrhea. Which means the child will become dehydrated. And that is probably what really caused his death.

I didn't know this until reading the article/your post. I had no idea apple juice was a diaretic.

Granted I'm not planning on having a child yet, so I haven't done a lot of research on the subject. When the time comes i'm sure i'll be reading up on it, not to mention having help from my Mom.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by triccc A child is a HUGE decision. And what you don't know, you can read about. This isn't the damn middle ages. I know children don't come with instructions, but fuck, ask other people or a doctor if you don't know for sure. I read so many books before I had my baby. Plus babycenter.com is amazing with information. but the best advice, lots of times, is from your doctor(s).

Personally I'm all for a "baby liscense." With incentives to parents who choose to get liscensed to have kids. Which indicates that they understand the responsibility that comes along with being a parent, know how to care for a newborn, and are financially capable to start a family.

I think too many parents don't understand how big of a decision a newborn is.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Neglect doesn't deserve life in prison, with possible added jail time at the mext hearing. Not everyone reads the labels. Regardless, the jury conviceted them based on the premise that they intentionally starved their baby to death, and tried to use Veganism as a cover. At least according to your link. If thats true, then yes I would believe the sentence was appropriate. I just have a hard time believeing that it was done intentionally. Especially with a home birth, it's not like there would have been any formal record of the baby had they wanted to kill the child. If anyone questioned her lack of a bump, she could have said she miscarried. Why bring the child to the hospital at all if they wanted to kill the kid. Why drag on the starvation for 6 weeks? It just doesn't add up. The sentence is wrong.

Ignorance is no excuse.
Stupidity is no excuse.
They didn't necessarily want to kill the child but they neglected the child. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

 

[triccc]

I never clicked the link, my bad. you do make a valid point raerae.
Maybe the sentence was a bit harsh, but even if their child kept losing weight I think red flags should go up and they should immediately take him to a doctor.

All in all it's just a shame what happened. I know it wasn't done on purpose, but they really should have kept themselves informed or even attempted to seek medical attention.

 

[triccc]

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Originally Posted by Raerae I think too many parents don't understand how big of a decision a newborn is.

right on.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Ignorance is no excuse. Stupidity is no excuse. They didn't necessarily want to kill the child but they neglected the child. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

I'm not disputing this Shimmer.

I object to the life in prison sentance they were given. So they fucked up as parents, and lost their baby. Thats not a crime they need to serve jail time for.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Raerae If they are telling the truth, and did care for their child to the best of their ability, then yes. They didn't do anything wrong. They just didn't care for their child correctly. It's not like you get a "how to" guide when you concieve. I'm sure they have regrets.

But they DID NOT do their best.
Doing their 'best' means reading the label, and making sure the child is getting, based on research and common sense, proper nutrition.

Doing their 'best' means that when the child is lethargic because its body is in starvation mode, taking him to the doctor.
Doing their 'best' means that they NOTICE that their infant is NOT GROWING.
Doing their 'best' means that they make healthy choices for their helpless newborn.
Doing their 'best' means that the child is fed, clean, and healthy.
A 3.5 lb baby at 6 weeks of age is NOT healthy.

Declining prenatal care is not illegal, by any stretch of the imagination, however, not taking proper care of the child IS.

 

[little teaser]

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Originally Posted by Beauty Mark Shouldn't a midwife or trained professional been on hand? Giving birth at home without trained help is very stupid. Little complications can happen during birth that can be easily and quickly fixed by a professional or cause serious damage to the child if you don't know what you're doing Free health care when you're pregnant is easy to get. I went through a period when I didn't have health care, and the forms for state health care even had special sections practically guaranteeing help if you're pregnant.

i agree, even if they cut the mother off after delivery they will still provide for the baby up untill a year, then theres the wic program that is free and run by nutritionus( hope i spell that right)

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Raerae I'm not disputing this Shimmer. I object to the life in prison sentance they were given. So they fucked up as parents, and lost their baby. Thats not a crime they need to serve jail time for.

They didn't 'fuck up'.
They killed, through their negligence, a child.

That's the same as saying a person who drives drunk 'fucked up' and doesn't deserve punishment because the death of the child itself is punishment enough.

 

[*Stargazer*]

OK, let's say I buy into the idea that feeding a newborn things that it can't digest qualifies as not starving them.

The fact still remains that they ignored the physical signs of his starvation for 6 weeks. They didn't notice anything was wrong with him until they took him to the hospital? He didn't become emaciated overnight. And if, by some chance, he looked like that when he was born then they are even MORE reprehensible for never seeking medical treatment for him.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Declining prenatal care is not illegal, by any stretch of the imagination, however, not taking proper care of the child IS.

People are dumb Shimmer. What can yah say.

But again, is life in prison for this couple really a good use of our prison system?

Vegan Person in Jail to other inmate - What are you in for?

Jail Inmate - Mass murder, rape, and eating babies. You?

Vegan Person - I'm a dumb parent.

Jail Inmate - Please don't hurt me!

 

[VeronikaJ]

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Originally Posted by Raerae People are dumb Shimmer. What can yah say. But again, is life in prison for this couple really a good use of our prison system? Vegan Person in Jail to other inmate - What are you in for? Jail Inmate - Mass murder, rape, and eating babies. You? Vegan Person - I'm a dumb parent. Jail Inmate - Please don't hurt me!

I don't understand your view on this case what so ever. If you are going to become a parent then for God sakes, read a fucking a label, or pick up a book! You're defending a couple who were (as it appears) of no retardation so they could have managed to see that their child was dying. It is neither fair or logical to call all of us on this forum "self-righteous" for having an opinion (when it was asked for, nonetheless). This story is unfortunate, but what these two people did is horrific and any parents out there may have an especially strong opinion. And that is okay...you surely haven't had any problem displaying your opinion.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer That's the same as saying a person who drives drunk 'fucked up' and doesn't deserve punishment because the death of the child itself is punishment enough.

Actually thats completely different. A drunk driver is a danger to other people. And if the person is a repeat offender, needs to be seperated from the general population because of safety issues. Or if they kill someone in a drunk driving related accident, deserve the appropriate sentence. Everyone knows it's against the law to drink and drive. So if you kill someone, it's not like you can say, "I didn't know I was drunk!"

In this case, the only people the parents are a danger too, is the child. And since it's already dead, they are not a danger to anyone else. So there is no reason to seperate them from the rest of the general population, especially for a life sentence.

Is some form of punishment deserved? Yes.

Is life in prison the correct punishment? No.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by VeronikaJ I don't understand your view on this case what so ever. If you are going to become a parent then for God sakes, read a fucking a label, or pick up a book! You're defending a couple who were (as it appears) of no retardation so they could have managed to see that their child was dying. It is neither fair or logical to call all of us on this forum "self-righteous" for having an opinion (when it was asked for, nonetheless). This story is unfortunate, but what these two people did is horrific and any parents out there may have an especially strong opinion. And that is okay...you surely haven't had any problem displaying your opinion.

I question the sentance given.

Not the fact they were neglectiful.

I agree on all counts that they should have been better more informed parents. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Raerae People are dumb Shimmer. What can yah say. But again, is life in prison for this couple really a good use of our prison system? Vegan Person in Jail to other inmate - What are you in for? Jail Inmate - Mass murder, rape, and eating babies. You? Vegan Person - I'm a dumb parent. Jail Inmate - Please don't hurt me!

Being dumb, ignorant, stupid, whatever, is no excuse.
It's obvious, it's RIGHT THERE, that something is wrong. Your child is not thriving. IT IS NOT GROWING. These are things that even third world country residents notice about their children.

These people willfully, willingly, and intentionally endangered their child, to the point of death.
They did it.
They deserve the punishment.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Actually thats completely different. A drunk driver is a danger to other people. And if the person is a repeat offender, needs to be seperated from the general population because of safety issues. Or if they kill someone in a drunk driving related accident, deserve the appropriate sentence. Everyone knows it's against the law to drink and drive. So if you kill someone, it's not like you can say, "I didn't know I was drunk!" In this case, the only people the parents are a danger too, is the child. And since it's already dead, they are not a danger to anyone else. So there is no reason to seperate them from the rest of the general population, especially for a life sentence. Is some form of punishment deserved? Yes. Is life in prison the correct punishment? No.

THese people are maintaining they did nothing wrong. They haven't learned anything. Therefore, they are a danger to any other child they may birth.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Being dumb, ignorant, stupid, whatever, is no excuse. It's obvious, it's RIGHT THERE, that something is wrong. Your child is not thriving. IT IS NOT GROWING. These are things that even third world country residents notice about their children.

Guess we should lock them up, as the infant mortality rate is pretty high in 3rd world countries.

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These people willfully, willingly, and intentionally endangered their child, to the point of death. They did it. They deserve the punishment.

I still dont buy it being intentional. If your ignorant about it, it can't be intentional. They should get invoulantary man slaughter. The fact that they were ignorant and stupid makes it being a murder impossible. They would have had to have purposly fed the kid applejuice and soy/breast milk with the intent that it would cause malnutrition for it to be murder.

By your logic, a parent who lets their son play outside, and he breaks his neck falling out of a tree, should get life in prison. They willfully, willingly and intentionally endangered their child, to the point of death. Everyone knows climbing trees is dangerious.

Or same with a parent who lets their child go swimming in the ocean, and drowns. Swimming is dangerious yah know. You should know better than to let them play in the ocean.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer THese people are maintaining they did nothing wrong. They haven't learned anything. Therefore, they are a danger to any other child they may birth.

You can't be a danger to a unborn child, thats impossible Shimmer. Thats like saying we should lock up any shady looking people because you know, they might do something!

Perhaps mandatory child care classes, and community service in a child care facility would be more appropriate then. Cleaning bed pans and washnig floors, and doing laundry for kids. As well as a mandatory healthcare provider at their expense if they choose to have children in the future during the first year of the infants life, or until it's deemed they are responsible enough to care.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Guess we should lock them up, as the infant mortality rate is pretty high in 3rd world countries. I still dont buy it being intentional. If your ignorant about it, it can't be intentional. They should get invoulantary man slaughter. The fact that they were ignorant and stupid makes it being a murder impossible. They would have had to have purposly fed the kid applejuice and soy/breast milk with the intent that it would cause malnutrition for it to be murder. By your logic, a parent who lets their son play outside, and he breaks his neck falling out of a tree, should get life in prison. They willfully, willingly and intentionally endangered their child, to the point of death. Everyone knows climbing trees is dangerious. Or same with a parent who lets their child go swimming in the ocean, and drowns. Swimming is dangerious yah know. You should know better than to let them play in the ocean.

No, you're twisting the logic.

All reasonable precautions were not taken with the child in question. All reasonable measures were not taken to make sure the child thrived. There's a difference between taking reasonable measures to raise a child and protect it, and being simply put, illogical.
It's reasonable that during the summer when my kids are outside in the swimming pool, I watch them, and yes, play with them. It's not reasonable to walk away and let them sink or swim on their own.

Your logic is fallible.

There were no reasonable measures taken to protect this child. None. Feeding it? Well, you're supposed to do that. And, not reading a label? That's inexcusable. It's in capital letters, and BOLDED, at that, for safety precautions.