Will gay marriage lead to the downfall of society?

[iadoremac]

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Originally Posted by iadoremac yea, and in the bible it says the same fate should be met for disobedient children. i dont see parents offing the;r kids for being rude, so you cant pick and choose what you want out of the bible. GOD loves homosexuals just the same.

I dont think anyone thinks God does not love homosexuals, he made us in his image and regardless of what we do he would always love us unconditionally

 

[iadoremac]

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Originally Posted by nanefy I really feel I have to post here because....well, just because I know I have to. I am totally prepared to be berrated for this, and I dare say (and I cant be certain because I haven't read all of the posts) there are a lot of people who have been scared to write anything that so much as hints at an agreement with the article, but I will write this anyway. I used to go to church a few years back and used to go for a long time. I fell away from the church, and not because I stopped believing, but stopped because my lifestyle started changing and I started becoming 'spiritually lazy' and felt like a hypocrite. I don't believe its right to go to church on a Sunday and act all holier than thou and then sin the rest of the week (what is the point!). However I will say this, I do still believe in everything I did when I went to church. I wont call myself an active christian, but I still have all the belief system, so for the purpose of this response I'll use the term 'Christian' lightly. So.....as a 'christian' I do believe that homesexuality is not as god intended and therefore, for me, I would have to say I oppose Gay Marriage. HOWEVER! I do also believe in free will. As a christian, I know that the future is already written and whatever is in gods plan will come to pass. Without starting to preach scripture a good example is when Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane (please excuse any spelling errors!) the night before he was crucified, he cried out to god to ask if there was any other way, but as I said before, God has a plan and everything happens for a reason (I promise I won't start bursting out into scripture!). So back to the point. I don't stay in the States so cant talk for anyone in your country, but if I was born in the states, and the government were passing a bill (or whatever its called) and it depended on feedback from the population by means of a vote, I am entitled, just like every other member of the population (gay or not) to make my contribution. What really makes me angry about all of this, is that it appears VERY much, that so long as you are on the opposing side, you're opinion shouldn't count. If people want to be angry, they should be angry with the people who made the decision to put the matter to vote. Homosexuals (and I don't like to use that as a label, because people are not defined by their sexuality) are entitled to their opinion just like everyone else. I do not take away your right to your opinion and I would expect the same in return. Just because I have a certain belief system (as does EVERYONE) that does not make me closed minded or out of touch with reality. What actually makes me boil with rage is the vile, horrible, nasty comments that 'us' on the opposing side have to put up with from those on the opposite side of the debate. If you are under actual attack from someone then, by all means stick up for yourself. However, I have never criticised anyones belief systems or their personal lives, so don't criticise mine. Regardless of the argument or belief system, no one should be made to feel like their opinions don't matter, or that their opinions are less important than anyone elses. If people don't want to live in an opressive society then it should be that way for all, not just for the cause you are fighting for. If you want to talk about equality, then make it equal for all. As a final point, everyone is free to make their own choices, and I would never dream of stopping you from doing so, but I will not be forced into going against what I believe in, just because someone else thinks I should. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, and is not just a response to this topic, but really a general response to the whole topic.

I agree with you and I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion a few ladies have said that they dont agree with it (at least thats what i said) but then again God gave us free will so people can and should do what they want. Whether or not a person agrees with it, I think no one should be judged based on their beliefs, or the way they choose to live their lives

 

[ShugAvery2001]

I don't think Gay Marriage will lead to the downfall of society. Other countries have legalized gay marriage and they're doing fine.

I totally expect all opinions to be different though. It's normal. That's why usually in the states minority "rights" have been mandated and protected by the courts and not the "public"

Views will vary greatly based on one's own life experiences. I know plenty of people who still have very very old school beliefs on birth control, integration, mixed marriage, oral sex.. you name it..

 

[Half N Half]

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Originally Posted by nanefy Just because I have a certain belief system (as does EVERYONE) that does not make me closed minded or out of touch with reality. What actually makes me boil with rage is the vile, horrible, nasty comments that 'us' on the opposing side have to put up with from those on the opposite side of the debate.

That's because most of "your" side accepts, promotes, and supports discrimination. If you don't think a certain group of people should be able to have the same rights as the majority of the people, then you are pretty much saying they are not on the same level as you. I'm sorry, in my mind that is closed minded and very out of touch with reality...just my opinion.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by Half N Half That's because most of "your" side accepts, promotes, and supports discrimination. If you don't think a certain group of people should be able to have the same rights as the majority of the people, then you are pretty much saying they are not on the same level as you. I'm sorry, in my mind that is closed minded and very out of touch with reality...just my opinion.

This is exactly the type of response I was expecting. A generalised comment made up of assumptions. I do not promote nor advocate discrimination of anyone regardless of race, religion or belief. I think this type of response is indicative of the way people like me are made to feel because of our beliefs. If you want to talk about equality and freedom for everybody, you cannot sit there and tell me that because I do not agree with YOU that I am closed minded and out of touch. That is the most ridiculous and hypocritical comment I think I have ever read. No one is stopping you from having an opinion, prop 8 was your chance to have an opinion. You are angry because it didn't go your way and as far as I recall, thats what democracy is all about.

I cannot change your mind about same sex marriage, and I wouldn't even dare to, because it's not my place and you are free to decide whatever you want, but don't you dare sit there and preach to me about equality when really what you are saying is that we are all equal, so long as we all agree with you.

Please note, that not once during any of my responses have I been defamatory about your beliefs or choices, its just a shame that you do not see fit to bestow me the same privelage. However if you want to drag the conversation down to a different level, feel free, because you wont hear another word from me.

 

[nanefy]

I think there is a huge misconception here that religion plays a role in the way the country is run. It just so happens to be an area where certain people with certain beliefs have been given the right, just like EVERYBODY else, to make a democratic choice and there now seems to be an uproar that religion is opressing the people of the United States. If the country were run by religion you would know about it. I think its a bit dramatic to compare united states democracy with Sharia law.
How is it OK to say to christians that their belief system is wrong and that their christian views should not be included in a social/legal issues but when the roles are reversed as with prop 8, same sex couples expect that their views should be included? Surely that is hypocritical? I do not take away anyones right to vote or to have an opinion, but I just find it amazing, that those who are pro same sex marriage are shouting about how unfair it is that people are taking away their rights, when thats exactly what they are suggesting should happen to people who oppose them?

As a multi-cultural society I dont think a 'secular society' is at all achievable, because everybody has a different belief system. You cant exclude one subset of the population from having the right to an opinion, because then its not a democracy, its a regime. No one has excluded same sex couples from their right to an opinion, but just because it didn't go their way, it doesn't give anyone the right to chastise others for their beliefs.

 

[Half N Half]

WOW, it's not that serious. And Prop 8 was not my chance to do anything, I don't live in California.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by Half N Half WOW, it's not that serious. And Prop 8 was not my chance to do anything, I don't live in California.

Serious enough though that you felt it acceptable
to label me closed minded and out of touch with reality. You cannot make defamatory statements with one hand and then make it out to be nothing with the other!

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by nanefy You cant exclude one subset of the population from having the right to an opinion, because then its not a democracy, its a regime.

The issue is that YOUR opinion is only allowed to dictate how YOU live YOUR life and not how I live mine. YOUR opinion does not get to dictate CIVIL RIGHTS for anyone else.

 

[knoxydoll]

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Originally Posted by nanefy how unfair it is that people are taking away their rights, when thats exactly what they are suggesting should happen to people who oppose them?

How is letting homosexuals having the right to be married, taking away your right to be married? It's not like supporters of gay marriage are trying to get rid of "traditional" heterosexual marriage.

I have a serious question for you, should Christians be allowed to be the only ones who can marry?

 

[Half N Half]

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Originally Posted by nanefy Serious enough though that you felt it acceptable to label me closed minded and out of touch with reality. You cannot make defamatory statements with one hand and then make it out to be nothing with the other!

Fair enough...didn't think it would be that offensive.

 

[blindpassion]

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Originally Posted by nanefy You cant exclude one subset of the population from having the right to an opinion, because then its not a democracy, its a regime. No one has excluded same sex couples from their right to an opinion, but just because it didn't go their way, it doesn't give anyone the right to chastise others for their beliefs.

You cant exclude one subset of the population from their right to an opinion:

JUST the same way that its disgusting to exclude on subset of the population from their CIVIL RIGHTS as human beings.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* The issue is that YOUR opinion is only allowed to dictate how YOU live YOUR life and not how I live mine. YOUR opinion does not get to dictate CIVIL RIGHTS for anyone else.

But your opinion does get to dictate CIVIL RIGHTS then? Is that what you are saying? So your opinion is the only one that matters is that correct?

I cannot stop the government from making changes if they wish, however if they ask my opinion on a subject I am quite within my right to express my own personal opinion, just as you are with yours.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by knoxydoll How is letting homosexuals having the right to be married, taking away your right to be married? It's not like supporters of gay marriage are trying to get rid of "traditional" heterosexual marriage. I have a serious question for you, should Christians be allowed to be the only ones who can marry?

I never mentioned that same sex marriage was taking away my rights to marry. If you had actually read and understood my post you would have understood that I was reacting to the idea that its OK for those who are PRO same sex marriages to insinuate that those who are from a religious background are wrong and that their opinions do not matter.

In answer to your question, there is no simple yes or no answer to that. I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Can I physically as an individual prevent you from marrying a person of the same Gender??? No, and I wouldn't try to either, because that is YOUR choice. However if asked my opinion on the matter I would tell you that, for ME, marriage should be between a man and a woman. I will not be shamed into denying my beliefs.

 

[Shimmer]

Personally, I don't think religious marriages should be a state issue at all. I think ALL marriages, regardless of sexual preference should be civil contracts between the two parties and mandated by the states, completely separate from 'marriage'.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by nanefy But your opinion does get to dictate CIVIL RIGHTS then? Is that what you are saying? So your opinion is the only one that matters is that correct?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you can't deny one class of people the civil rights that are extended to another class of people. That's called discrimination. And to deny civil rights to one class of people based on the religious beliefs of another class of people is downright ludicrous.

I think you need to step back and calm down. The hysterics are over the top. No one is trying to tell you that you can't have your opinion. No one is trying to forcibly remove your opinion, seriously.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by blindpassion You cant exclude one subset of the population from their right to an opinion: JUST the same way that its disgusting to exclude on subset of the population from their CIVIL RIGHTS as human beings.

The government gave EVERYONE the right to vote and have their say. Just because in some states it would seem that those who are PRO same sex marriage seem to be in the minority it does not make the voting system unfair. I am not preventing ANYONE from loving whoever they please, however marriage as far as I am concerned is a religious ceremony that is stated in the bible to be between a man and a woman.

What I don't understand is this? What is really the issue here? Is it that same sex couples want the same rights as different sex couples i.e. the right to be next of kin etc, because if that is the case, it shouldn't be marriage that solves that issue, that is a governmental issue. Marriage is the union of a man and woman in front of god to say that as a couple they will live the way god intended and that they will live their lives for christ. It is not an event to ensure half of your partners equity if you split up. If it is not for this purpose, then what is it that same sex couples want to achieve by being given the right to marry?

I and no one else is preventing you from loving a person of the same sex, and no one is preventing you from making it official in front of your friends and family, or is anyone preventing you from screaming it from the roof tops. However, don't then decide that you want to take the religious ceremony of marriage and make it whatever you want and expect christians to just shut up and live with it.

 

[knoxydoll]

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Originally Posted by nanefy I never mentioned that same sex marriage was taking away my rights to marry. If you had actually read and understood my post you would have understood that I was reacting to the idea that its OK for those who are PRO same sex marriages to insinuate that those who are from a religious background are wrong and that their opinions do not matter.

I did read and I did understand your post, but I still felt like you were insinuating that gays are allowed to be married then it means people of religious backgrounds can't. It is your opinion that gay marriage is wrong, and it's yours and no one is allowed to take that from you. But if people on both sides kept silent no debates would be brought forth. Sometimes you need to complain, you need to show the extremes for people to really understand, not necessarily agree, but to understand why you feel passionately about your opinion.
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Originally Posted by nanefy In answer to your question, there is no simple yes or no answer to that. I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Can I physically as an individual prevent you from marrying a person of the same Gender??? No, and I wouldn't try to either, because that is YOUR choice. However if asked my opinion on the matter I would tell you that, for ME, marriage should be between a man and a woman. I will not be shamed into denying my beliefs.

Does my belief change your belief or does it change how your marriage would go? If I believe gays should be able to be married, just as I think people of mixed races and religions should be allowed to marry each other, does that really change how you perceive marriage between a man and a woman? Would allowing homosexuals the right to marry, the right to support each other when one falls ill, the right to love, really disrupt your belief system? How does someone else's marriage change your belief? It doesn't.
I cannot understand how you can say that you wouldn't stop someone from marrying someone of the same gender but yet you say you won't support gay marriage.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by nanefy Marriage is the union of a man and woman in front of god to say that as a couple they will live the way god intended and that they will live their lives for christ.

Not here in the US, it isn't. Americans actually let non-Christians get married.

That or I'm not actually married, since I got married in the backyard of a historical mansion with no religious official in sight.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you can't deny one class of people the civil rights that are extended to another class of people. That's called discrimination. And to deny civil rights to one class of people based on the religious beliefs of another class of people is downright ludicrous. I think you need to step back and calm down. The hysterics are over the top. No one is trying to tell you that you can't have your opinion. No one is trying to forcibly remove your opinion, seriously.

OMG that is just so typical. It is perfectly reasonable for those who are PRO same sex marriage to get all 'hysterical' but god forbid I should be just as passionate about the subject. You say that no one is trying to take away my opinion, but that is exactly what is happening. Comments akin to those that suggest that religious belief should not play a part in legal/social issues highlight my point exactly.

I am not denying CIVIL RIGHTS to anyone, if you want half of your partners assets when you split up, FINE, if you want to alimony when you split up FINE. These are issues that should not be resolved by marriage, these are issues that people need to take up with the government. Instead of people casting aspersions on religious persons, take your issue up with government and force them to see that sexual preference should not matter when it comes to your civil rights.