Will gay marriage lead to the downfall of society?

[knoxydoll]

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Originally Posted by nanefy The government gave EVERYONE the right to vote and have their say. Just because in some states it would seem that those who are PRO same sex marriage seem to be in the minority it does not make the voting system unfair. I am not preventing ANYONE from loving whoever they please, however marriage as far as I am concerned is a religious ceremony that is stated in the bible to be between a man and a woman. What I don't understand is this? What is really the issue here? Is it that same sex couples want the same rights as different sex couples i.e. the right to be next of kin etc, because if that is the case, it shouldn't be marriage that solves that issue, that is a governmental issue. Marriage is the union of a man and woman in front of god to say that as a couple they will live the way god intended and that they will live their lives for christ. It is not an event to ensure half of your partners equity if you split up. If it is not for this purpose, then what is it that same sex couples want to achieve by being given the right to marry? I and no one else is preventing you from loving a person of the same sex, and no one is preventing you from making it official in front of your friends and family, or is anyone preventing you from screaming it from the roof tops. However, don't then decide that you want to take the religious ceremony of marriage and make it whatever you want and expect christians to just shut up and live with it.

If my boyfriend and I were to get married, I'm a Humanist, he's a Jew. We be getting MARRIED and it would have nothing to do with the way God intended or with Christ.

 

[ShugAvery2001]

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Originally Posted by nanefy Marriage is the union of a man and woman in front of god to say that as a couple they will live the way god intended and that they will live their lives for christ. It is not an event to ensure half of your partners equity if you split up. If it is not for this purpose, then what is it that same sex couples want to achieve by being given the right to marry?

According the the State, that's not what marriage is. That may not be what marriage is to you personally, but legally that's not what marriage is.

You have a right to you personal opinion, but I'm just saying

You're not really being "rational" about the issue either. You're whole position is based on your particular religious belief. One out of the MANNYYYY religious laws you choose to adhere too. All the others are always negotiable

I understand.. people will get weirded out regarding teen marriages and legal ages of consent and all that jazz... It might be shocking. To know that your 16 year old son wants to mary a 32 year old man... But personally I find a 16 year old daughter doing this appalling as well.

Just all about perspective

I think it should be left to the courts to decide. because people will never agree and their feelings will be predictable as long as they aren't the one's being denied anything.

 

[blindpassion]

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Originally Posted by nanefy OMG that is just so typical. It is perfectly reasonable for those who are PRO same sex marriage to get all 'hysterical' but god forbid I should be just as passionate about the subject. You say that no one is trying to take away my opinion, but that is exactly what is happening. Comments akin to those that suggest that religious belief should not play a part in legal/social issues highlight my point exactly. I am not denying CIVIL RIGHTS to anyone, if you want half of your partners assets when you split up, FINE, if you want to alimony when you split up FINE. These are issues that should not be resolved by marriage, these are issues that people need to take up with the government. Instead of people casting aspersions on religious persons, take your issue up with government and force them to see that sexual preference should not matter when it comes to your civil rights.

I think it would be really interesting if the Government took away all your civil rights. Just yours - and see how passionate you become about being recognized as an equal.

The Government is giving the GLBT community a chance. And people like you voted and decided that they shouldn't be allowed their civil rights. I don't give a shit what god you pray too. I don't believe in God because I know that if there was a god, he would believe in equality for all - and so would his followers - which you certainly do not.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by nanefy I am not denying CIVIL RIGHTS to anyone, if you want half of your partners assets when you split up, FINE, if you want to alimony when you split up FINE. These are issues that should not be resolved by marriage, these are issues that people need to take up with the government. Instead of people casting aspersions on religious persons, take your issue up with government and force them to see that sexual preference should not matter when it comes to your civil rights.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding. Marriage is a CIVIL institution here in the US. These issues that you bring up ARE part and parcel of a civil marriage. You can get religiously married in the US and still have a "marriage" that is NOT recognized by the state if you don't get a marriage license. All gays want is the same access to civil marriages.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by knoxydoll I did read and I did understand your post, but I still felt like you were insinuating that gays are allowed to be married then it means people of religious backgrounds can't. It is your opinion that gay marriage is wrong, and it's yours and no one is allowed to take that from you. But if people on both sides kept silent no debates would be brought forth. Sometimes you need to complain, you need to show the extremes for people to really understand, not necessarily agree, but to understand why you feel passionately about your opinion. Does my belief change your belief or does it change how your marriage would go? If I believe gays should be able to be married, just as I think people of mixed races and religions should be allowed to marry each other, does that really change how you perceive marriage between a man and a woman? Would allowing homosexuals the right to marry, the right to support each other when one falls ill, the right to love, really disrupt your belief system? How does someone else's marriage change your belief? It doesn't. I cannot understand how you can say that you wouldn't stop someone from marrying someone of the same gender but yet you say you won't support gay marriage.

I have actually just covered this in another response. When we talk about Civil Rights, as you have pointed out, the right to love or look after each other when you are ill is not affected by you not being able to marry someone of the same gender. If you want to have the right to time off to care for your partner when they are ill or be their next of kin when they die, then that is fine, take that up with government to make that law, but it shouldn't be fixed by marriage.

As far as I am concerned the union of man and woman in marriage under the eye of god, has become a farce. The majority of people get married, purely because it gives them certain assurances (many of which I have discussed above). This is not what marriage should be about. Everyone should have civil rights regardless of their sexual preferences, but as I've stated previously, don't try and take marriage (regardless of your sexual preference) and make it whatever you want without christians having something to say about it.

I think its more important to tackle the real issue instead of giving christians the blame for it. It is the government who is to blame for not giving you your civil rights, not me as a christian.

 

[ForgetRegret]

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Originally Posted by nanefy OMG that is just so typical. It is perfectly reasonable for those who are PRO same sex marriage to get all 'hysterical' but god forbid I should be just as passionate about the subject. You say that no one is trying to take away my opinion, but that is exactly what is happening. Comments akin to those that suggest that religious belief should not play a part in legal/social issues highlight my point exactly. I am not denying CIVIL RIGHTS to anyone, if you want half of your partners assets when you split up, FINE, if you want to alimony when you split up FINE. These are issues that should not be resolved by marriage, these are issues that people need to take up with the government. Instead of people casting aspersions on religious persons, take your issue up with government and force them to see that sexual preference should not matter when it comes to your civil rights.

I think the big problem here, really, is that the government has NO right to tell two people that they can't get married, simply because they're a same-sex couple. If you, as a religious person are against gay marriage, fine, that's great, oppose it all you want, you have that right. I am all FOR gay marriage, and I support it, because I have that right. However, neither of us should be able to decide for everyone else what they should do. Democracy is a wonderful thing, and a lot of times, it works well, BUT it has no place in matters of love...I'm sorry, it just doesn't. If Jim and Joe want to get married, it shouldn't be up to the rest of the state of California to decide whether or not they can do that...it should be up to THEM...the two people who are affected by the union. Surely they're not inconveniencing the rest of the state by being married, and being treated the same as other, heterosexual married couples.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by blindpassion I think it would be really interesting if the Government took away all your civil rights. Just yours - and see how passionate you become about being recognized as an equal. The Government is giving the GLBT community a chance. And people like you voted and decided that they shouldn't be allowed their civil rights. I don't give a shit what god you pray too. I don't believe in God because I know that if there was a god, he would believe in equality for all - and so would his followers - which you certainly do not.

ALL my civil rights?? Are you actually commenting on anything I wrote? Did I tell you, that you had to believe in god? Am I forcing my religion on you? No! Did you even read my point about civil rights having nothing to do with religion? Or are you just on a 'I hate christians stint' you cant see past that?

 

[knoxydoll]

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Originally Posted by nanefy I have actually just covered this in another response. When we talk about Civil Rights, as you have pointed out, the right to love or look after each other when you are ill is not affected by you not being able to marry someone of the same gender. If you want to have the right to time off to care for your partner when they are ill or be their next of kin when they die, then that is fine, take that up with government to make that law, but it shouldn't be fixed by marriage. As far as I am concerned the union of man and woman in marriage under the eye of god, has become a farce. The majority of people get married, purely because it gives them certain assurances (many of which I have discussed above). This is not what marriage should be about. Everyone should have civil rights regardless of their sexual preferences, but as I've stated previously, don't try and take marriage (regardless of your sexual preference) and make it whatever you want without christians having something to say about it. I think its more important to tackle the real issue instead of giving christians the blame for it. It is the government who is to blame for not giving you your civil rights, not me as a christian.

What should it be fixed by?

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by knoxydoll What should it be fixed by?

Acknowledgment by the state and federal government of contractual obligations and allowances, which is really, anymore, all marriage is.

 

[blindpassion]

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Originally Posted by nanefy ALL my civil rights?? Are you actually commenting on anything I wrote? Did I tell you, that you had to believe in god? Am I forcing my religion on you? No! Did you even read my point about civil rights having nothing to do with religion? Or are you just on a 'I hate christians stint' you cant see past that?

I'm just pointing out what I consider to be the insanity of your thoughts.

You don't seem to understand the gravity of the situation. You don't seem to understand how those people FEEL to be told "You're not equal even though you're a human being, you're not equal because you were born a certain way". I cant even IMAGINE how hard that must be for those people.

And just so you know, I don't hate anyone. But its people like you that make me feel like I should hate Christians.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by ForgetRegret I think the big problem here, really, is that the government has NO right to tell two people that they can't get married, simply because they're a same-sex couple. If you, as a religious person are against gay marriage, fine, that's great, oppose it all you want, you have that right. I am all FOR gay marriage, and I support it, because I have that right. However, neither of us should be able to decide for everyone else what they should do. Democracy is a wonderful thing, and a lot of times, it works well, BUT it has no place in matters of love...I'm sorry, it just doesn't. If Jim and Joe want to get married, it shouldn't be up to the rest of the state of California to decide whether or not they can do that...it should be up to THEM...the two people who are affected by the union. Surely they're not inconveniencing the rest of the state by being married, and being treated the same as other, heterosexual married couples.

I never denied any of that. I never said I could forcibly stop someone from getting married, however NO ONE is preventing anyone from loving anyone. If you want civil rights, then fight for them, but don't do it under the auspices that not allowing same sex marriage is preventing you from getting them. Preventing same sex couples from marrying is entirely different to preventing them from loving each other or being treated the same as heterosexual couples. Just because marriage is as far from religion these days as it could possibly be (because lets face it no one really treats it with the sanctity that it deserves) doesn't mean that I as someone with christian beliefs should just decide to give up on it.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Acknowledgment by the state and federal government of contractual obligations and allowances, which is really, anymore, all marriage is.

As long as it encompasses the exact same contractual obligations and allowances, I think you'd get no argument from any (rational) supporter of same sex marriage.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by blindpassion I'm just pointing out what I consider to be the insanity of your thoughts. You don't seem to understand the gravity of the situation. You don't seem to understand how those people FEEL to be told "You're not equal even though you're a human being, you're not equal because you were born a certain way". I cant even IMAGINE how hard that must be for those people. And just so you know, I don't hate anyone. But its people like you that make me feel like I should hate Christians.

This is just ridiculous, you are trying to take a situation and make it something completely different. No one is telling people or making them feel like they are not equal. If you want to fight for civil rights, then by all means go ahead and do so. My beliefs are not preventing you from getting that AT ALL. However, marriage as far as I am concerned is a religious ceremony and why would someone who is not religious want to be married? Would someone who is not jewish have a bar-mitzvah? No, because its a Jewish religious ceremony. Marriage should not be a resolution to civil rights, governmental change should be. If you want to hate christians for their beliefs, then by all means go ahead and do so, but Hating people for their beliefs is pretty small minded as far as I am concerned.

 

[Karen_B]

I don't understand why christians in particular should have something to say about marriage?
My husband and I are atheists, and got married in a civil service at City Hall. We did it as a way of celebrating and solidifying our relationship. Is our marriage now a farce, because we didn't go to church - a church we both find oppressing and closed minded - and stood in front of a god we don't believe in?

And not having the right to take time off to take care of your spouse or being the next of kin in case of death, that's not small potatoes. It's not farcical to get married to obtain those rights. Marriage is an easy way to obtain those rights, it is also a cultural ritual well established in most, if not all, societies, so why shouldn't gays be let in on it?

And regarding the downfall of society... I think rather than gays getting married and going about their lives, we should worry about drugs, sexual trafficking, destruction of our environment and war.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by ShugAvery2001 According the the State, that's not what marriage is. That may not be what marriage is to you personally, but legally that's not what marriage is. You have a right to you personal opinion, but I'm just saying You're not really being "rational" about the issue either. You're whole position is based on your particular religious belief. One out of the MANNYYYY religious laws you choose to adhere too. All the others are always negotiable I understand.. people will get weirded out regarding teen marriages and legal ages of consent and all that jazz... It might be shocking. To know that your 16 year old son wants to mary a 32 year old man... But personally I find a 16 year old daughter doing this appalling as well. Just all about perspective I think it should be left to the courts to decide. because people will never agree and their feelings will be predictable as long as they aren't the one's being denied anything.

But that is my point exactly, I don't how I could make that any clearer. Just because that is not how marriage is in the states, doesn't mean I should just give up on my beliefs about marriage and just declare it a free for all.

I don't understand how having my point of view makes me irrational? I also don't understand your point about all the other religious laws are negotiable, so I cant really comment on that, because I don't know what you mean.

 

[Karen_B]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Acknowledgment by the state and federal government of contractual obligations and allowances, which is really, anymore, all marriage is.

Exactly. If people want to bring God into it, they can have a religious blessing or ceremony separately.

 

[nanefy]

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Originally Posted by Karen_B I don't understand why christians in particular should have something to say about marriage? My husband and I are atheists, and got married in a civil service at City Hall. We did it as a way of celebrating and solidifying our relationship. Is our marriage now a farce, because we didn't go to church - a church we both find oppressing and closed minded - and stood in front of a god we don't believe in? And not having the right to take time off to take care of your spouse or being the next of kin in case of death, that's not small potatoes. It's not farcical to get married to obtain those rights. Marriage is an easy way to obtain those rights, it is also a cultural ritual well established in most, if not all, societies, so why shouldn't gays be let in on it? And regarding the downfall of society... I think rather than gays getting married and going about their lives, we should worry about drugs, sexual trafficking, destruction of our environment and war.

I never agreed that allowing same sex marriages would lead to the downfall of society, I never said that, not even once!

I also said that taking time off from work and next of kin etc, was important and you should fight for that, so I'm not sure why you've tried to make out like I am making it 'small potatoes'. Just because marriage is an easy way to obtain civil rights, it does not make it right, or even the most logical thing to do. Civil rights and marriage have become too closely linked. No ones civil rights should be infringed because of their sexual preference, but for me that means finding another route to obtain them than marriage.

 

[knoxydoll]

Oh and the reason Christians tend to get all the blame laid on them is because the Jews don't really care and/or say nothing, Islamic people don't come out forces causing commotions (although we all know most are opposed to it), Buddhist don't care, I think you get my drift here. Essentially Christians are the only ones who are really being out spoken about opposing gay marriage.

 

[OfficerJenny]

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Originally Posted by nanefy What I don't understand is this? What is really the issue here? Is it that same sex couples want the same rights as different sex couples i.e. the right to be next of kin etc, because if that is the case, it shouldn't be marriage that solves that issue, that is a governmental issue. Marriage is the union of a man and woman in front of god to say that as a couple they will live the way god intended and that they will live their lives for christ. It is not an event to ensure half of your partners equity if you split up. If it is not for this purpose, then what is it that same sex couples want to achieve by being given the right to marry?

Uh,

The issue is, I wanna get married.
Duh.

 

[Shadowy Lady]

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Originally Posted by nanefy This is just ridiculous, you are trying to take a situation and make it something completely different. No one is telling people or making them feel like they are not equal. If you want to fight for civil rights, then by all means go ahead and do so. My beliefs are not preventing you from getting that AT ALL. However, marriage as far as I am concerned is a religious ceremony and why would someone who is not religious want to be married? Would someone who is not jewish have a bar-mitzvah? No, because its a Jewish religious ceremony. Marriage should not be a resolution to civil rights, governmental change should be. If you want to hate christians for their beliefs, then by all means go ahead and do so, but Hating people for their beliefs is pretty small minded as far as I am concerned.

hummmm...I didn't wanna get involved in this but seriously??? If non-religious people and atheists shouldn't be married in your opinion, I would say in my opinion religious ppl shouldn't be allowed to study science, or engineering or anything progressive!

What I said above is not my actual opinion (I believe in equality for all), I was just trying to show you how ridiculous your argument sounded.