Will gay marriage lead to the downfall of society?

[ForgetRegret]

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Originally Posted by nanefy This is just ridiculous, you are trying to take a situation and make it something completely different. No one is telling people or making them feel like they are not equal. If you want to fight for civil rights, then by all means go ahead and do so. My beliefs are not preventing you from getting that AT ALL. However, marriage as far as I am concerned is a religious ceremony and why would someone who is not religious want to be married? Would someone who is not jewish have a bar-mitzvah? No, because its a Jewish religious ceremony. Marriage should not be a resolution to civil rights, governmental change should be. If you want to hate christians for their beliefs, then by all means go ahead and do so, but Hating people for their beliefs is pretty small minded as far as I am concerned.

I'm too lazy to multi-quote right now...so this isn't just addressing the above quote...

Ok, as far as you're concerned, marriage may be a religious ceremony, but it ISN'T. It CAN be, and often IS a religious ceremony...for those people who are religious. Marriage didn't start out as anything more than a business transaction...but I commented on this previously. Maybe marriage shouldn't be a resolution to civil rights, but unfortunately, until homosexuals are allowed to legally marry, they DON'T get the same rights as heterosexual couples, and that's not right. No one is telling you to give up on your views of marriage...but marriage is not exclusive to the christians, or any other religious group of people, and it shouldn't be treated as such. The christians have their views on marriage, the Jews have theirs, Muslims have theirs...etc etc etc..being opposed to gay marriage, and voting against it, is basically forcibly stopping people from getting married, is it not? Sure, if the law passed that gay marriage was legal, then it wouldn't have worked (the stopping people from marrying, I mean), but that doesn't change the fact that the votes against it were definitely attempts to prevent the marriage of two people. ...and preventing them from being married IS preventing them from being treated the same, how can you possibly say otherwise? If you treat two couples the same, then you allow them both to get married...if you don't allow one couple to marry, then you're no longer treating them the same.
So you don't have a problem with gays having the same civil rights as straight couples...BUT you don't want them married. ...because in your mind, marriage is religious. ...even though it isn't.
Did I get that right?

 

[ForgetRegret]

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Originally Posted by OfficerJenny Uh, The issue is, I wanna get married. Duh.

You know what, love...I don't think anyone could've said it better...that's seriously perfect.

 

[ShugAvery2001]

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Originally Posted by nanefy I don't understand how having my point of view makes me irrational? I also don't understand your point about all the other religious laws are negotiable, so I cant really comment on that, because I don't know what you mean.

It's irrational because you're only leaning on "belief" and not fact. It's a fact that as far as the State is concerned, marriage really has nothing to do with God. You have to factor that into your gay marriage pro/con equation. I mean everyone gets married whether they're believers or not. Believers have a different set of ceremonies to go along with legal marriage. which is cool but you keep stating faith.

And what I mean about religious laws are that there are more than the laws against "sodomy" (sodomy includes any oral sex as well you know)
There are umpty nine biblical laws .. laws about what food you should eat.. laws about when a man can have sex with his wife.. laws about fornication and adultry ... the sabbath... I mean .. I've named about 5 out of maybe 100 or so levitical laws. People get so fixated on laws that govern sex.. but on the types of sex THEY're not having.

Somebody decided that sodomy was worse that oral sex was worse than fornication etc....

cause I know plenty of fornicators who didn't have to go through the "marriage for God" test... and many married people christian and not who are serious adulterers .. it's just life

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by knoxydoll Oh and the reason Christians tend to get all the blame laid on them is because the Jews don't really care and/or say nothing, Islamic people don't come out forces causing commotions (although we all know most are opposed to it), Buddhist don't care, I think you get my drift here. Essentially Christians are the only ones who are really being out spoken about opposing gay marriage.

Um.
I don't think the Islamic world is AT ALL welcoming to the homosexual lifestyle in ANY manner. To suggest that Islamic thinking re: homosexuality is more modern than Christian thinking is the height of delusion.

 

[Makeup Emporium]

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Originally Posted by nanefy Marriage is the union of a man and woman in front of god to say that as a couple they will live the way god intended and that they will live their lives for christ.

Actually marriage has nothing to do with god. It is a consensual and contractual relationship between 2 people that is recognized by law. My husband and I are not religious and we did not get married in a church nor did our ceremony even mention god or religion. Our marriage has absolutely nothing to do with god or religion in any shape whatsoever. It has to do with the fact that we love each other and want to spend the rest of our lives together. By getting married that fact is now recognized by law.

Same sex couples should have absolutely the same rights that heterosexual couples have. I think that any attempt to not grant them that right amounts to bigotry. What makes a man & women loving each other any more important or special then 2 women or 2 men loving each other? I guess I just don't get it? Thank goodness in Canada we recognize EVERY marriage as special; same sex marriage is allowed here!!!

 

[Makeup Emporium]

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Originally Posted by OfficerJenny Uh, The issue is, I wanna get married. Duh.

Exactly, and you should be allowed to do so! Come here to Canada and get married; we recognize all marriages as special!

 

[SMMY]

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Originally Posted by nanefy I really feel I have to post here because....well, just because I know I have to. I am totally prepared to be berrated for this, and I dare say (and I cant be certain because I haven't read all of the posts) there are a lot of people who have been scared to write anything that so much as hints at an agreement with the article, but I will write this anyway. I used to go to church a few years back and used to go for a long time. I fell away from the church, and not because I stopped believing, but stopped because my lifestyle started changing and I started becoming 'spiritually lazy' and felt like a hypocrite. I don't believe its right to go to church on a Sunday and act all holier than thou and then sin the rest of the week (what is the point!). However I will say this, I do still believe in everything I did when I went to church. I wont call myself an active christian, but I still have all the belief system, so for the purpose of this response I'll use the term 'Christian' lightly. So.....as a 'christian' I do believe that homesexuality is not as god intended and therefore, for me, I would have to say I oppose Gay Marriage. HOWEVER! I do also believe in free will. As a christian, I know that the future is already written and whatever is in gods plan will come to pass. Without starting to preach scripture a good example is when Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane (please excuse any spelling errors!) the night before he was crucified, he cried out to god to ask if there was any other way, but as I said before, God has a plan and everything happens for a reason (I promise I won't start bursting out into scripture!). So back to the point. I don't stay in the States so cant talk for anyone in your country, but if I was born in the states, and the government were passing a bill (or whatever its called) and it depended on feedback from the population by means of a vote, I am entitled, just like every other member of the population (gay or not) to make my contribution. What really makes me angry about all of this, is that it appears VERY much, that so long as you are on the opposing side, you're opinion shouldn't count. If people want to be angry, they should be angry with the people who made the decision to put the matter to vote. Homosexuals (and I don't like to use that as a label, because people are not defined by their sexuality) are entitled to their opinion just like everyone else. I do not take away your right to your opinion and I would expect the same in return. Just because I have a certain belief system (as does EVERYONE) that does not make me closed minded or out of touch with reality. What actually makes me boil with rage is the vile, horrible, nasty comments that 'us' on the opposing side have to put up with from those on the opposite side of the debate. If you are under actual attack from someone then, by all means stick up for yourself. However, I have never criticised anyones belief systems or their personal lives, so don't criticise mine. Regardless of the argument or belief system, no one should be made to feel like their opinions don't matter, or that their opinions are less important than anyone elses. If people don't want to live in an opressive society then it should be that way for all, not just for the cause you are fighting for. If you want to talk about equality, then make it equal for all. As a final point, everyone is free to make their own choices, and I would never dream of stopping you from doing so, but I will not be forced into going against what I believe in, just because someone else thinks I should. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, and is not just a response to this topic, but really a general response to the whole topic.

Well all of this would be fine and dandy, except when someone's belief system starts dictating public policy. Personally I don't think the government should be at all involved in marriage other than issuing marriage licenses. Also, this thread, for the most part has remained civilized. Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't make it an insult to your belief system and just because people are discussing said belief system doesn't make it an attack. So maybe if you could dial down the volume a little and make your point more calmly, people will listen. We're normally pretty civilized here.

 

[ShugAvery2001]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Um. I don't think the Islamic world is AT ALL welcoming to the homosexual lifestyle in ANY manner. To suggest that Islamic thinking re: homosexuality is more modern than Christian thinking is the height of delusion.

Honey you'd be surprised....

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/06/wo...ef=global-home

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Ms. Lootah, a strong-willed and talkative 45-year-old, is one of a small but growing number of Arabs pushing for more openness and education about sex. Unlike earlier generations of women who often couched their criticism in a Western language of female emancipation, Ms. Lootah and her peers are hard to dismiss as outsiders because they tend to be religious Muslims who root their message in the Koran. Ms. Lootah, for instance, studied Islamic jurisprudence in college, not Western psychology, and her book is studded with religious references. She submitted the text to the Mufti of Dubai before publishing it, and he gave his approval (though he warned her that Arab audiences might not be ready for such a book, especially by a woman). “People have said I was crazy, that I was straying from Islam, that I should be killed,” Ms. Lootah said. “Even my family ask why I must talk about this. I say: ‘These problems happen every day and should not be ignored. This is the reality we are living.’ ” She is not a liberal by Western standards. One of the themes of her book is the danger of anal sex and homosexuality generally, not because of AIDS but because they are banned by the Koran. But her openness about the issue was itself a shock to many here. In Saudi Arabia and other countries where the genders are rigorously separated, many men have their first sexual experiences with other men, which affects their attitudes toward sex in marriage, Ms. Lootah said. “Many men who had anal sex with men before marriage want the same thing with their wives, because they don’t know anything else,” Ms. Lootah said. “This is one reason we need sex education in our schools.”

 

[ForgetRegret]

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Originally Posted by ShugAvery2001 Honey you'd be surprised.... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/06/wo...ef=global-home

The way this sort of thing was explained to me once, when I was overseas in that general area, was that men/boys were for recreation, women were for procreation.

 

[nanefy]

OK This is my final reply, because I am tired of people not understanding my point.

Religion and Civil Rights are two completely separate things. For what feels like the millionth time, christianity does not prevent you from obtaining your civil rights, the government does. Everyone is entitled to their civil rights and I have also said this before. I really don't see the point in continuing, when no one really seems to be actually grasping my whole point. I don't think I could write the words 'everyone is entitled to their civil rights' any clearer, but some people seem to be blinded by either rage or religious hatred (hatred may be too strong a word, but you get my point).

My final point is this, the religious ceremony (holy matrimony) is exactly that.....RELIGIOUS! If you are not religious, then why partake in a religious activity? Why not, instead, fight for your civil rights as a human. Please don't make this about religious oppression. If you want your civil rights, go out and fight for them in the proper fashion, stop making this a war between christians and homosexuals. I have many homosexual friends and they have no issue with my beliefs and I wholly support their beliefs that same sex couples should have the same CIVIL rights as myself and my boyfriend, but to tie that into a religious ceremony for me is not the way to go about it.

If any of my comments have led you to believe that I do not wholly support your rights as a human (regardless of sexuality) then you have completely misunderstood my point.

Anyway, that is my last word on the matter, feel free to take this how you want, but I am not here to offend. Also please don't now try to make out like my opinions and the manner in which I have expressed them as being any different to the comments posted in the first couple of pages. Can I conclude then that so long as you are with the majority that you are entitled to be passionate and angry? If you have read all my posts (and this is for you SMMY) then clearly you have listened to me. I'll get just as passionate as those who are PRO same sex marriage, so don't tell me to simmer down just because my views oppose yours.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by ShugAvery2001 Honey you'd be surprised.... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/06/wo...ef=global-home

Perhaps I missed it, but nowhere in that article is there anything stating anything remotely close to a homosexual lifestyle being acceptable within Islamic countries.

 

[SMMY]

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Originally Posted by nanefy OK This is my final reply, because I am tired of people not understanding my point. Religion and Civil Rights are two completely separate things. For what feels like the millionth time, christianity does not prevent you from obtaining your civil rights, the government does. Everyone is entitled to their civil rights and I have also said this before. I really don't see the point in continuing, when no one really seems to be actually grasping my whole point. I don't think I could write the words 'everyone is entitled to their civil rights' any clearer, but some people seem to be blinded by either rage or religious hatred (hatred may be too strong a word, but you get my point). My final point is this, the religious ceremony (holy matrimony) is exactly that.....RELIGIOUS! If you are not religious, then why partake in a religious activity? Why not, instead, fight for your civil rights as a human. Please don't make this about religious oppression. If you want your civil rights, go out and fight for them in the proper fashion, stop making this a war between christians and homosexuals. I have many homosexual friends and they have no issue with my beliefs and I wholly support their beliefs that same sex couples should have the same CIVIL rights as myself and my boyfriend, but to tie that into a religious ceremony for me is not the way to go about it. If any of my comments have led you to believe that I do not wholly support your rights as a human (regardless of sexuality) then you have completely misunderstood my point. Anyway, that is my last word on the matter, feel free to take this how you want, but I am not here to offend.

jebus christ on a cracker! I think everyone here has figured out what your opinion is, it's just that we happen to disagree with it. Now if you care to offer something new to the discussion, we would be happy/enthralled/relieved to hear it. The whole last three pages of this discussion has given me a headache, so can we discuss this in a less heated and more enlightened manner?

Oh and because I'm extra ranty and cranky today, Nanefry, this isn't about you being persecuted. I don't believe disagreeing with someone constitutes discrimination, like say, denying someone the right to marry the person they love. So please take off your hair shirt and stop rolling in the nettles. I'm not buying that garbage today.

 

[frocher]

..........

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by SMMY jebus christ on a cracker! I think everyone here has figured out what your opinion is, it's just that we happen to disagree with it. Now if you care to offer something new to the discussion, we would be happy/enthralled/relieved to hear it. The whole last three pages of this discussion has given me a headache, so can we discuss this in a less heated and more enlightened manner?

Hold on.

She's presented her opinion respectfully, despite being dogpiled.
She's not attacked anyone.

She clarified the statement regarding civil rights and allowing access, and elaborated on her position that religions are allowed to believe as they choose, just as voters are, but the pursuit of civil rights shouldn't be within churches or against churches, but on courthouse steps and within government policies.

She clearly delineated between the two, and wholly endorsed equal civil rights across the board while maintaining her religious convictions.


Short of complete capitulation to your dissenting viewpoint, what else could she do?

 

[Makeup Emporium]

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Originally Posted by nanefy My final point is this, the religious ceremony (holy matrimony) is exactly that.....RELIGIOUS! If you are not religious, then why partake in a religious activity?

Again you are missing the point. Marriage is NOT religious. Marriage is a contract between 2 people recognized by LAW. Just because you see marriage as religious, and believe that it will be religious for YOU, does not mean that it is a fact that marriage is religious.

It is a contract pure and simple.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Makeup Emporium Again you are missing the point. Marriage is NOT religious. Marriage is a contract between 2 people recognized by LAW. Just because you see marriage as religious, and believe that it will be religious for YOU, does not mean that it is a fact that marriage is religious. It is a contract pure and simple.

Not entirely.
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the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of a man and woman to live as husband and wife, including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage.

Both sides of the marriage debate claim matrimony for their own, both as a religious union and as a contract. One or the other will have to step out in order to make any progress and make it work.

The underlying issue as far as definition and boundaries will have to be worked out. Civil rights are most definitely a NON religious issue, because they spread across all genders, races, ages, and faiths. What is kept holy within religion (whatever the religion) is entirely different, and should be addressed as much.

It wouldn't be discrimination for a church not to endorse a same sex ceremony, as the ceremony doesn't fall in line with the viewpoints of the church.
It IS discrimination for states not to allow life partners of ANY gender the same rights across the boards, regardless of how the partners define themselves sexually. It IS discrimination to refuse the right to civil unions to anyone. Ultimately, the 'marriage license' one acquires at a courthouse is nothing more than a binding civil contract.

Separate the 'church' and the 'state' and remove the 'marriage' verbiage from the process at all, unless it's sanctioned by a church...the civil contract is what grants the rights and protections, not the standing in front of the preacher saying vows. 'Marriage' ceremonies practiced within a church but outside of the civil contract shouldn't offer the same protections that a ceremony with the contract allows.

 

[Makeup Emporium]

^^^My point was simply that marriage itself is not religious. If you choose to have a religious marriage ceremony then that is your choice. However you can very easily get married with no religious meaning whatsoever. Marriage is only religious if you choose to make it so.

I did not have a religious ceremony and I am married. It is not the church that granted me my marriage liscense, marriage ceremony or any marriage rights it is the law that did so and it is under the law (and not the church) that I am married.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Makeup Emporium ^^^My point was simply that marriage itself is not religious. If you choose to have a religious marriage ceremony then that is your choice. However you can very easily get married with no religious meaning whatsoever. Marriage is only religious if you choose to make it so. I did not have a religious ceremony and I am married. It is not the church that granted me my marriage liscense, marriage ceremony or any marriage rights it is the law that did so and it is under the law (and not the church) that I am married.

yes.
Via a civil contract.

 

[Makeup Emporium]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer yes. Via a civil contract.

That may be the terminology for the US but we do not use that here in Canada. I have a marriage certificate and entered into a marriage contract. We do not distinguish between religious and non religious cermonies; they are the same under the law.

 

[Shimmer]

It's not the term here in the US, in the US it is a marriage license, but ultimately, it's simply a contract.