2008 Presidential Candidates Comparison ( Side By side)... DOn't know what to think.

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purrtykitty And on top of that, neither said anything new. Exactly how do either of them expect to sway undecided voters by re-hashing the same arguments over and over. If those arguments had worked the first time, there wouldn't be any undecideds.

I've recently become fascinated with the idea that anyone (who is actually going to vote) is ever undecided this close to an election. I kinda figured people made up their minds as soon as the candidates were confirmed.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous I don't get why the whole debate about health care always had to end up so hardened. Like the one camp who is extremely for yes, and the other for no. Both positions have benefits and pitfalls. Some people do see it as a human right that everyone belonging to the society has a right to health care, regardless of their financial ability. The benefits of a wholesome healthcare system benefits the economy as well, because a healthy labour force is more productive, meaning higher returns, etc. But of course nothing is perfect. Some countries have done a commendable job of implementing health care (and I hate the notion of people saying it's "free" health care - it's not - everyone pays for it, the funds are just allocated differently.) But in some places, there are drawbacks, sure - and that's why in the States, some people don't want to implement it. It's not that all healthcare systems are awful, and not all of them are great, there's a lot of different models and variations out there. I just don't understand why both sides can't accept some kind of compromise, why it has to be so black and white, and see that both positions have benefits and drawbacks. No wonder the world is so full of problems, if we can't even begin to see a problem or an issue from more than one side of the coin. The only way to come to a resolution is to try to understand both positions, and see if a compromise can be worked out that will be acceptable to both sides. I just see these endless arguments as pointless because they do not bring any new level of understanding or willingness to actually engage, it's like a battle of who is right and who is wrong...I don't think it always has to be so black and white.

The biggest issue is that there's not been a plan, with appropriate funding allocations, etc. presented that the majority of folks can get behind.
It's been "We need this!!!!!! But I don't know how to do it, so uh, someone else figure out the details, but I got your back!!"

 

[missworld]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* She's talking about the gov't run systems here. And as someone insured by one of them, they are sub-par, at best, in their standard of care. But hey, at least it's free when they screw up my infant son's sedation.

I know what she is talking about and talks cheap.

She makes a statement about other countries health care systems and does not back it up with one shred of evidence or personal experience.
I have actually lived outside of the US.


missworld

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by missworld I know what she is talking about and talks cheap. She makes a statement about other countries health care systems and does not back it up with one shred of evidence or personal experience. I have actually lived outside of the US. missworld

And then, when the people who HAVE lived outside of the US chime in with an opposing opinion, you discredit their position as well.

Lovely.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* I've recently become fascinated with the idea that anyone (who is actually going to vote) is ever undecided this close to an election. I kinda figured people made up their minds as soon as the candidates were confirmed.

Lol, no I get it. I just figured at this point, the candidates would be throwing out other new ideas out there to grab voters' attention, rather than dressing up the same old turds.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by missworld I know what she is talking about and talks cheap. She makes a statement about other countries health care systems and does not back it up with one shred of evidence or personal experience. I have actually lived outside of the US. missworld

Bully for you. I was BORN outside the US and am a citizen of two countries. I guess that makes me a super expert on something or another.

She made no statement whatsoever in her post about other countries health systems.

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 I wanted to click my thank you button 5 times for this lol. This is my issue , look at the government run healthcare systems that are in place now, they are subpar at best.

Where, exactly, does it say "other countries"?

 

[missworld]

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Originally Posted by purrtykitty Yes, and I think legal services should also be free. Everyone deserves free representation.

Well actually some people think they do!

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Originally Posted by purrtykitty Heck...let's toss out free MAC to all, while we're at it!

Mine's a point black liquid last. Thank you.


missworld

 

[missworld]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* Bully for you. I was BORN outside the US and am a citizen of two countries. I guess that makes me a super expert on something or another. She made no statement whatsoever in her post about other countries health systems. Where, exactly, does it say "other countries"?

She siad government funded health cares gives sub-par service, we do not have government funded health care. Q.E.D.

missworld

 

[missworld]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer And then, when the people who HAVE lived outside of the US chime in with an opposing opinion, you discredit their position as well.

Well I have seen not facts to back-up the assertion that publicly funded medicine is inferior, just a lot of mud slinging.

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Lovely.

Wow.

missworld

 

[missworld]

Good night

missworld

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by missworld She siad government funded health cares gives sub-par service, we do not have government funded health care. Q.E.D. missworld

That's news to me. I always thought that Tricare, Medicare and Medicaid were federally (or jointly funded with the states in the case of Medicaid) funded.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by missworld Well I have seen not facts to back-up the assertion that publicly funded medicine is inferior, just a lot of mud slinging. Wow. missworld

You state you want personal experiences related, and / or facts.
You get them.
You don't like them.
You dismiss them.
Ok.

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by missworld Well actually some people think they do!

That is for criminal matters only...and guess what, we the citizens are paying for it. Don't kid yourself. Public defenders get paid to do what they do. Many law offices will take on pro bono cases, but usually it's as time allows.

 

[SkylarV217]

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Originally Posted by purrtykitty I couldn't agree more! The nation's youth could be given a leg up into adulthood by requiring all HS seniors to have a basic course in economics and Constitutional Law before graduation.

That was a part of our requirement ... here at least, but It was A JOKE ! we copied definitions had spelling and definition tests and watched movies ... and that was the Honors section ..... =/.... i was fortunate to attend a University that offered a Political Science department and it was one of my requirements

 

[lizardprincesa]

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Originally Posted by rbella No lizard

rbella, please don't call me "lizard" Thanks.

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, I have not met her. Hence the nature of my post. Please quote it in its entirety.

I should have.

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Here it is again:

Quote:

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? I think this is a technical thing with the software used on this board
sorry....I can't see it.

I am not trying to make you look silly; I know you wrote it. I can go look for it, or I can continuing trying to figure out how we will pay for propane (the gauge is on empty), not to mention the enormous electric bill we incurred over the Summer.
I also need to spend time researching more pre-schools, so that I might bring in a 2nd income & be able to stay *with* my son.
Or maybe I will be translating online (English/Spanish.)

back to topic (sorry for straying)

We don't know *really* what's happening to the person on the other side of the screen. We don't know where the person is from. The person supports universal healthcare, and finds it "inhumane"
for people not to have this commodity available.
So do I.
I *do* know I truly dislike dissonance between people. I dislike it between us. I feel really upset, rbella.

Quote:

The last sentence supports my statement. Throwing around crude accusations such as calling someone "inhumane" because they don't agree with your stance on politics is completely ridiculous and uncalled for. I'm sorry if you do not agree.

You *do* know me a little bit more here than some...What do you *really* think I feel here...I hate when people call each other names. ouch.

I agree that it is inhumane for people to suffer, and I believe it's rude for people to call each other names. Again, we do not know what is behind the person's experience. We aren't sitting in each other's living rooms (for those who have them...we may not soon.)

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No, I haven't. I didn't realize that I had to live abroad to understand the effects of a national public health system.

I think you do have to. I didn't, until i lived in the UK. i posted last Night about it. I didn't find it perfect, but I found it much more humane than what is happening here with insurance companies.

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I believe I can also come up with an opinion on this particular subject by speaking with others who do and have lived abroad as well as educating myself on the subject.

I used to think I understood many things about many cultures. I had visited those cultures. I didn't understand what it was actually like to *live* somewhere else until I did. How humbling, and also, what an adventure!

I must get ready for bed. I cannot stay up to read what happened after this. Maybe it's better that way. Maybe I can read tomorrow in between....everything...the Day...

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I should think my experience working in health care and insurance industry for 10 years would make me quite knowledgeable.

Definitely, it would make you knowledgeable about *here*.

GoodNight

CherylFaith
​

 

[SkylarV217]

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Originally Posted by missworld In your vast experience of living outside of the US I take it; please enlighten us as to how these systems are sub-par. How terrible it is for their citizens to walk into a doctor's office see the doctor and not have to worry about the bill at the end of the consultation, please do tell! missworld

I do not have to live outside of the United states to experience Sub-par government run health care. I had foster children and in Tennessee they are required to have Government run health care / TennCare. The problem with that is that the only practices that accept TennCare are the practices that can't get patients. The Baby a 2 month old was addicted to Meth. We had to wait 9 months for a visit to a neurologist, the doctor treating her would prescribe medicine for her on the bases of her brothers condition.

My Grandmother a Medicare holder has had three open heart surgeons, she need constant supervision of her blood, ie the thickness and also had terrible treatment under government funded medicare, she eventually got another form of insurance.

My two years of working for a hospital and walkin clinic gave me several chances to see the way referrals and insurance is handled in the area of tri- care

So please tell me your positive experiences with insurance handled by the government and we might compare

 

[SkylarV217]

and please correct me if I'm wrong , but isn't the Medicare system on the verge of Collapse? If the Government can't manage that and Social Security in an efficient manner, can we trust them to manage a system for ALL Americans? I would prefer not to chance it, at least not until they get the first 2 straightened out .

 

[rbella]

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Originally Posted by lizardprincesa Danelle, you knew this would get me. Are we little kids? I have asked you both in posting and on a more personal level, not to call me "lizard." Don't you remember? Don't you remember how i have respected & shown you I care about you? Do you think I would call you by a name you asked me not to call you? Is that what "friends" do?

No, actually I forgot. Just as I assume you forgot that I have asked you not to use my real name on this forum. I didn't call you "lizard" to insult you. For God's sake, it is in your username and I just shortened it like I do with most people's usernames. I don't think it is appropriate to use a person's real name on a board without their permission, therefore I try to stick to usernames. I apologize if that offended you. I have not in any way shown disrespect to you, but if you feel I have, then I am very sorry. I personally feel that I have treated you quite fairly.

Since this has nothing to do with the actual topic in this discussion, I will bow out now. I don't think that this is really an appropriate discussion in an open forum.

 

[red]

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Originally Posted by missworld Well at least we agree there is a problem. Let's be clear, Barack Obama is NOT proposing a National Heath System. HERE is what he is proposing.

I didn't say he (Obama) was proposing a National Health system

I said "if we were to" ....

 

[Dizzy]

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Originally Posted by missworld I am probably a little to the left of Obama politically.

Believe it or not, I used to be considered far left as well. Then I started working (interning) in politics and my experiences changed my views completely. I don't identify with the political spectrum anymore, I simply consider myself a realist.

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Originally Posted by missworld The constitution is amendable.

This amendment would never get past Congress. Oh hell, I can tell you from experience working in Congressional offices in DC and NY that no Congressman in their right mind who wants to keep their job would pass it at this juncture or at any time in the near future. It's on the ten foot pole list.

And truthfully, I can't understand why one would think that this is something that should be in our Constitution. The Constitution is the primary foundation of governance here, it is purposely vague and relatively brief to keep federal power consolidated and states powers protected. If any sort of UH is to be passed in the US, it will be a state prerogative not a federal one. IMO, it'd probably be far more successful that way.

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Actually I agree, a national health system would have problems and may not be the best solution for the US! But the current system doesn't work either, too much power in the hands of the insurance companies.

I don't think anyone would espouse that our current method is the best, but it's better than any proposed alternatives at this time, including any proposed by our presidential candidates.

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I am sure the best minds in this country could resolve the issue. For a start if employers did not have to contribute to there employees health care they could pay higher wages!

Like the nice CEOs at Lehman's are going to share their billions with their employees? Or give up their bonus packages so their secretary can afford to feed her kids with that raise? History doesn't suggest this to be the case. A nice idea, but not realistic.

Don't even get me started that they used my taxes to do it in the first place. I can't afford my bills, but apparently I can afford to give enough so they can continue to live in the lap of luxury after practicing faulty business practices a la Fannie Mae.

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What if a state provide the option of a state insurance plan, and contracted it out to the insurance company that put in the best bid. The state would have the buying power and the insurance companies would then serve us while still making a reduced profit.

Okay, but what happens when the state is teetering on the edge of insolvency as CA is right now? Health care would be the first thing cut, no doubt. Behind salaries, I'd guess that it's the biggest expense in the CA budget (though I admit I haven't read the most recent one). The biggest expenses are always the first to get the axe. Then what happens?

I'm not saying all of this to proverbially beat you over the head, that's not my intention. But in the circles that I've been privy to, which are admittedly limited to those of my Congressman and state legislature, these are the questions that are asked. This would be a massive undertaking, one that's been decreed simply not feasible in our current climate. Everything is all talk and, in my estimation, will stay that way.

There are alternatives. But, in my estimation, this is a frozen issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkylarV217 and please correct me if I'm wrong , but isn't the Medicare system on the verge of Collapse? If the Government can't manage that and Social Security in an efficient manner, can we trust them to manage a system for ALL Americans? I would prefer not to chance it, at least not until they get the first 2 straightened out .

Last I read, Medicare is set to run out of funding by 2018. Some states' CHIPS programs (health care for otherwise uninsured kids) are running belly up, though they try to bury this fact behind pages of boring and utterly useless crap in order to keep the taxpayer stupid and happy.

And really, our gov't couldn't run a successful brothel, we can't run our DMVs and we can't even figure out how to get a decent working public transit system in most states. After taking a look around me, these are not the folks I want deciding my health care. Maybe in a different time and a different political landscape, but not now.