Does this offend you?

[rbella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist This is just a general response because I've been watching this thread for a while with growing concern. It really bothers me that: 1) Some people seem to think they are more entitled than others to the way they express their feelings about this very emotive subject. This applies to the OP as well as others that are adamant that the Only Proper And Correct Way To Think/Talk/Deal With Hitler And WW2 Is To Be More Respectful And Take it Very Very Seriously (of which there are many examples throughout this board). 2) Some people seem to think that if you react any way other than the way they think you should react, you're wrong, obviously ill informed, perhaps young and stupid, ignorant, etc. I just think this whole thread is weirdly bashing people left and right. I think everyone is happy to agree WW2 was awful and Hitler was an asshole and the repercussions echo through to the present day. But no one has the right to say that someone should feel one way or another about history. If someone doesn't feel a thing about WW2, if it doesn't reach their heart or their emotions.... well, at the end of the day, what does it matter to you? All you need to know is how you feel and think about the subject. Someone else's opinions, thoughts and emotions really need not affect you. If someone really hates the OP's user icon (or anyone else's icon), it's really very fucking simple. They should contact the mod or the host that owns the website and instigate a TOS complaint, if the icon is offensive or is somehow in breach of TOS. I don't see why there has to be the insinuation that the OP is a bad person for using the picture, or that anyone who finds the picture amusing (or uses humour to deal with horrific topics to cope) is wrong, ignorant, insenstive, or otherwise defective as a human being. Just because you're German doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. Just because your family served in the war doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. Just because you've been to the war museums, watched films, read books about it, etc., doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. You may be better informed, but that doesn't mean my opinion is necessarily less informed or somehow less meaningful than yours.

Not to be a total bitch here, but you are specifically telling people that they shouldn't push their opinions on others or tell them how to think, however that is EXACTLY what you are doing in this entire post.

And to address your quote:
Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist You may be better informed, but that doesn't mean my opinion is necessarily less informed or somehow less meaningful than yours.

If I am more informed than you, then your opinion is less informed.

 

[aziajs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist This is just a general response because I've been watching this thread for a while with growing concern. It really bothers me that: 1) Some people seem to think they are more entitled than others to the way they express their feelings about this very emotive subject. This applies to the OP as well as others that are adamant that the Only Proper And Correct Way To Think/Talk/Deal With Hitler And WW2 Is To Be More Respectful And Take it Very Very Seriously (of which there are many examples throughout this board). 2) Some people seem to think that if you react any way other than the way they think you should react, you're wrong, obviously ill informed, perhaps young and stupid, ignorant, etc. I just think this whole thread is weirdly bashing people left and right. I think everyone is happy to agree WW2 was awful and Hitler was an asshole and the repercussions echo through to the present day. But no one has the right to say that someone should feel one way or another about history. If someone doesn't feel a thing about WW2, if it doesn't reach their heart or their emotions.... well, at the end of the day, what does it matter to you? All you need to know is how you feel and think about the subject. Someone else's opinions, thoughts and emotions really need not affect you. If someone really hates the OP's user icon (or anyone else's icon), it's really very fucking simple. They should contact the mod or the host that owns the website and instigate a TOS complaint, if the icon is offensive or is somehow in breach of TOS. I don't see why there has to be the insinuation that the OP is a bad person for using the picture, or that anyone who finds the picture amusing (or uses humour to deal with horrific topics to cope) is wrong, ignorant, insenstive, or otherwise defective as a human being. Just because you're German doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. Just because your family served in the war doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. Just because you've been to the war museums, watched films, read books about it, etc., doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. You may be better informed, but that doesn't mean my opinion is necessarily less informed or somehow less meaningful than yours.

I think I understand the overall point that you are making but I respectfully disagree. I will try to articulate the reasons for that but I don't know if I can completely.

I think it is of great concern to people that someone, anyone would not be effected by their knowledge of history, in general really, but specifically WWII and Hitler. Ignorance is one thing but even when you have been informed if it still doesn't resonate with you I think there is a problem. It does speak of who you are. It does speak of what you think and believe. It does speak of the impact that you have on the world and everyone in it, directly and indirectly.

 

[purrtykitty]

But just because someone doesn't have a passion for everything that is history-related doesn't mean that they're a bad person. Perhaps they are more passionate about mathematics or science or literature. I love history, but I don't think anything less of others that don't.

I'm not that informed on the various sub-parts of history, but I find the general subject of history fascinating. I love watching the History and Discovery channels and visiting historical sites, but I don't necessarily know all the details about the particular subject area I'm watching/visiting. And there are areas of history that I find more fascinating than others. I don't think that makes me ignorant or a bad person. To each, their own.

 

[yonkersbarbie]

lmao.
i think that is hilarious.

 

[user79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purrtykitty But just because someone doesn't have a passion for everything that is history-related doesn't mean that they're a bad person. Perhaps they are more passionate about mathematics or science or literature. I love history, but I don't think anything less of others that don't. I'm not that informed on the various sub-parts of history, but I find the general subject of history fascinating. I love watching the History and Discovery channels and visiting historical sites, but I don't necessarily know all the details about the particular subject area I'm watching/visiting. And there are areas of history that I find more fascinating than others. I don't think that makes me ignorant or a bad person. To each, their own.

Not to be a smart ass, but watching the History Channel is prob one of the worst ways to get informed about history in general. It's completely one-sided, that channel has an agenda. You're better off reading some good primary source material on history to get a better understanding of the many dynamics of war and what not. There's a reason why that channel is dubbed the "Hitlory channel" by many.

 

[rbella]

You don't have to have a passion for history to respect what our previous generations did to make our lives better. You don't even have to know much about it.

I just have a severe problem with people disrespecting history and calling major World Wars or vicious dictators "irrelevant" when they are not. No one would be on this site discussing this topic or even thinking about the fabulous new MAC launch had it not been for our previous generations.

 

[purrtykitty]

I don't hang on their (History channel's) every word, but they have some very interesting programs (besides, I figure it's better than watching reality TV). Traditional history texts are also very one-sided, at least they were when I went to school. I've recently read some very interesting accounts regarding American Indian history written from the perspective of American Indians. Not something I'd ever read while in school (elementary/secondary).

 

[SkylarV217]

While I do agree that the History Channel is completely biased and very frequently get facts wrong. I still enjoy several of the programs. While Primary source material is the way to go... Some people don't have the time to sit and read. Just check up a little on the facts =).

 

[Asphyxiation]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist This is just a general response because I've been watching this thread for a while with growing concern. It really bothers me that: 1) Some people seem to think they are more entitled than others to the way they express their feelings about this very emotive subject. This applies to the OP as well as others that are adamant that the Only Proper And Correct Way To Think/Talk/Deal With Hitler And WW2 Is To Be More Respectful And Take it Very Very Seriously (of which there are many examples throughout this board). 2) Some people seem to think that if you react any way other than the way they think you should react, you're wrong, obviously ill informed, perhaps young and stupid, ignorant, etc. I just think this whole thread is weirdly bashing people left and right. I think everyone is happy to agree WW2 was awful and Hitler was an asshole and the repercussions echo through to the present day. But no one has the right to say that someone should feel one way or another about history. If someone doesn't feel a thing about WW2, if it doesn't reach their heart or their emotions.... well, at the end of the day, what does it matter to you? All you need to know is how you feel and think about the subject. Someone else's opinions, thoughts and emotions really need not affect you. If someone really hates the OP's user icon (or anyone else's icon), it's really very fucking simple. They should contact the mod or the host that owns the website and instigate a TOS complaint, if the icon is offensive or is somehow in breach of TOS. I don't see why there has to be the insinuation that the OP is a bad person for using the picture, or that anyone who finds the picture amusing (or uses humour to deal with horrific topics to cope) is wrong, ignorant, insenstive, or otherwise defective as a human being. Just because you're German doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. Just because your family served in the war doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. Just because you've been to the war museums, watched films, read books about it, etc., doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. You may be better informed, but that doesn't mean my opinion is necessarily less informed or somehow less meaningful than yours.

Agree..
Thank you...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMMY I get the general impression from your posts that you are only not that familiar with the history you are talking about. Maybe if you do a little more research, it will help you frame a better response. I'm not trying to be insulting, but when discussing large issues such as war and genocide, a little extra knowledge helps you make your point more persuasively. If you can't frame a fairly knowledgable response, it takes weight away from your argument and people tend to give your remarks less credence. Honestly, I'm just trying to help here.

I had about ww2 in School as a project so I think I DO know about ww2 thank you...

I'm not a cold person....
But the image of hitler brings me no imotions..?!
I can't help that..???

Sure what he did was horrible and such, and I do feel sorry for the families who lost family members to the war...
But my family haven't lost family members, my grandma was alive back then and exsperienced and still remembers the war...

But she or no one else ever told me to hate hitler or something like that..
My grandma teached me funny (yet cruel to the germans) world war songs...

I think it's important to remember the past....
But I don't think we still should cry and be all hysteric about the past....

I don't think staying is the past is a good thing... Whether it's ww2 or anything else...

I'm not saying this to piss ppl of, I'm just saying what I feel and believe...

 

[Mabelle]

Perhaps the reason you don't feel any "imtions" when you see a picture of hilter is because you don't care to. You don't want to try to relate to the people that have survived world war two's horrible acts. You're family was prob. in north america and regards those days as "the good ol' days" when they could be indifferent to the suffering of the jews (because let's face it, we didn't help them as much as we could have. Our reasons for entering into war were not to be noble and save jews) and vilify all germans.

Mean while, my grandmother, who was 15, was running across germany with her father and sister in law. They were hiding her sister in law from the Nazis because she was jewish. Her husband was basically forced into the SS, he only went because he thought they might leave her alone if he went quietly. My grandmothers life was thorn apart from the war. She doesnt even know what's happened to most of her family.

But your right, she shouldn't live in the past, right? She should move on. Forget about her family.

You're grandmother taught you hate propaganda? I'm so angry i don't even know what to say. You cannot Combat hate with hate. It leads to ignorance, and that is how you're opinions are formulated.

And just because you did a project about WWII in high school doesn't mean you know a fucking thing about a WORLD WAR THAT SPANNED 9 YEARS AND KILLED OVER 70 MILLION PEOPLE!!!!

im sorry if this response was horribly inappropriate... but jesus. i don't think i could have responded in any other fashion. some people just need to keep their mouths shut.

 

[Sushi.]

does'nt offend me at all.

 

[Susanne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Just because you're German doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. Just because your family served in the war doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. Just because you've been to the war museums, watched films, read books about it, etc., doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about the war than I am to mine. You may be better informed, but that doesn't mean my opinion is necessarily less informed or somehow less meaningful than yours.

And let me continue:

Just because you are a doctor doesn't mean you're more entitled to your opinion about an appendectomy than I am to mine!

Opinions are opinions and facts are facts!!

 

[darkwater_soul]

Really, all it comes down to is this -

Your perception in any situation is your reality, and yours alone.

What YOU (the OP) views (let's use this picture as a representation) as funny will be funny. However, when another sees this same picture, they may be offended by it, and they see THEIR opinion as right. It's a very gray area, and the only way to get around it is to try and see things from all angles. Consideration for other views and compassion for those who may be affected go a long way. Yes, you can post that pic online, and some may find it funny. However, you know the events that went on in his name, so in some way you must know that more than just a FEW people will find this photo offensive, so any comments that come at you are more than warranted... because you HAD to know someone somewhere would be offended. It's like making a racial joke... some may find it funny, and the group that the joke is about probably won't, and in telling said joke, the person must know right away that they may possibly offend. You aren't wrong or right in posting that pic, but because people's perceptions are their realities, and since in the span of human existence WW2 wasn't long ago at all, some folks will be upset. You can choose to leave it up and deal, or take it down. But you can't post it in a public place, trying to garner sympathy or consideration for your situation, without accepting the fact that most people won't share your point of view.

 

[FullWroth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mabelle ^ .... that is the most moronic post i have read in the lot. Not only was it completly unintelligible and full of made of words and appalling grammar, but it was PAINFULLY naive and sheltered.

This being an international forum, there's a good chance that English isn't the OP's first language. I know you're pissed off at her, but dude, maybe you should lay off on the ad hominem attacks until you confirm her primary language.

And in regards to your own grammar skills, it should be "made-up" or "made up" rather than "made of," and "that" and "i" should both be capitalized. Also, it's spelled "completely," not "completly." Pot, meet kettle, and perhaps proofread your own posts in the future before bitching about others.

I've actually been enjoying this debate so far; all sides involved have brought up great points, and somehow, most people have managed to be mature up until now. Can we please get back to that mature thing? I quite liked it.

 

[darkwater_soul]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FullWroth This being an international forum, there's a good chance that English isn't the OP's first language. I know you're pissed off at her, but dude, maybe you should lay off on the ad hominem attacks until you confirm her primary language. And in regards to your own grammar skills, it should be "made-up" or "made up" rather than "made of," and "that" and "i" should both be capitalized. Also, it's spelled "completely," not "completly." Pot, meet kettle, and perhaps proofread your own posts in the future before bitching about others. I've actually been enjoying this debate so far; all sides involved have brought up great points, and somehow, most people have managed to be mature up until now. Can we please get back to that mature thing? I quite liked it.

I agree!

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella Not to be a total bitch here, but you are specifically telling people that they shouldn't push their opinions on others or tell them how to think, however that is EXACTLY what you are doing in this entire post.

Nope, I'm simply pointing out that everyone has the right to their own opinion, and no one has the right to make me (or anyone else) feel bad because we deal with the same topic in different ways.

I'm objecting to the people are using their opinions and emotions about Hitler and WW2 to form a high horse to look down on those of us that don't find the image offensive, or are happy with using humour to cope.

But then again, I'm one of those people that enjoyed "The Producers", "Life is Beautiful", and Fawlty Tower's "The Germans". Guess that makes me (and the Academy Awards) all monsters, right?

And to address your quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella If I am more informed than you, then your opinion is less informed.

No, you misread or misunderstood my statement. If you are more informed on a subject, you are not necessarily more informed than me. People are assuming that because they're passionate about a subject and read a lot or watched the freaking History Channel that their opinion is necessarily better informed, for example, than mine.

I object to that tautology. You have absolutely no idea what information I hold in my mind about any particular topic.

I am objecting to the idea that those that do not agree with finding the image a valid form of satire believe that those of who do are in need of a serious re-education. It's incredibly insulting.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susanne Sorry??

Wasn't looking for an apology.

I realised you'd be pissed off with my response. And I still stand by it.

You are German. I have German family members. While I respect their opinions (and yours) about how you feel, you and Germans in general do not have more right to your feelings and thoughts about WW2 than any of the rest of us.

These statements you made set me off:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susanne "But how should some of you know? Some of you live two generations after WWII at the other end of the world. You cannot know how it is to grow up in the shadow of such as regime. Still today."

No, but that doesn't mean that you are more entitled to your opinion about the regime than me. It means it probably affected you more, and will continue to affect your life because you are German, but it does not mean that you get a monopoly on how to feel or react to the subject.

Incidentally, I think it sucks that you'd have to deal with backlash against Germans as a result of the war. It is a historical legacy that continues to hurt Germans, from what I gather from my German family members.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susanne Sure, from Europe, but not from Germany. That is a difference!

So if you're from Europe but not from Germany, your opinion is less valid. Uh huh.

And those that grew up in post-war Italy, after Mussolini? Or those that grew up in the Soviet Union?

Or how about those that grew up in Japan or are descendents of Japanese-Americans? I'm sure there are a few Japanese or Japanese-descendants on Specktra somewhere, or might be someday. If their grandparents (or parents - it wasn't that long ago) were interred in American camps for fear they were spies, does that mean they have to defer to your opinion of the war at all times because you're German and have grown up on post-WW2 Germany?

I just think that it's wrong to use your German nationality to state your opinions as though they are facts.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aziajs I think I understand the overall point that you are making but I respectfully disagree. I will try to articulate the reasons for that but I don't know if I can completely. I think it is of great concern to people that someone, anyone would not be effected by their knowledge of history, in general really, but specifically WWII and Hitler. Ignorance is one thing but even when you have been informed if it still doesn't resonate with you I think there is a problem. It does speak of who you are. It does speak of what you think and believe. It does speak of the impact that you have on the world and everyone in it, directly and indirectly.

I'm not defending willful ignorance by any means.

What I am saying though is that if you truly care about what you perceive to be someone's ignorance, you don't automatically equate ignorance in someone with that person being bad, or somehow in need of cowing into agreement with your opinion, which is the stance that many people have taken on this board. I'm not saying you in particular; I'm being deliberately vague by referring to "other posts" throughout the board because I do not want to act like a troll.

If you want someone to respect your opinion and even learn from it, or even change their own minds by being influenced by your opinion, you have to adopt the position that maybe they have good reason to believe what they do, even if they're (in your opinion) wrong. If they're wrong, it would be more appropriate to adopt the position that they're perhaps genuinely ignorant of certain facts, not being maliciously willful.

I just object to the idea that because someone doesn't agree with the position you (the general 'you', not you in particular) adopted through study or education that they are automatically ignorant or in need of berating.

People are more apt to listen to opposite opinions if you give them a little modicrum of respect by assuming that their opinions aren't necessarily formed by being malignant and facile.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mabelle ^ .... that is the most moronic post i have read in the lot. Not only was it completly unintelligible and full of made of words and appalling grammar, but it was PAINFULLY naive and sheltered. And just because you did a project about WWII in high school doesn't mean you know a fucking thing about a WORLD WAR THAT SPANNED 9 YEARS AND KILLED OVER 70 MILLION PEOPLE!!!

How ironic. It wasn't nine years. Sept 1939 - Aug 1945.

 

[captodometer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist This is just a general response because I've been watching this thread for a while with growing concern. It really bothers me that: 1) Some people seem to think they are more entitled than others to the way they express their feelings about this very emotive subject. This applies to the OP as well as others that are adamant that the Only Proper And Correct Way To Think/Talk/Deal With Hitler And WW2 Is To Be More Respectful And Take it Very Very Seriously (of which there are many examples throughout this board). 2) Some people seem to think that if you react any way other than the way they think you should react, you're wrong, obviously ill informed, perhaps young and stupid, ignorant, etc.

???? I don't recall anyone actually telling Astronaut to take the picture down. Everyone pretty much seems to think that she has the right to post it: a sizeable minority think it's funny, and it seems to be be equally split between those who think it's blatantly offensive and those who aren't personally offended but could understand why others would be. A lot of people also seem to think that she should give some serious consideration as to why she chose to post it, especially in light of the fact that she seems bothered by some of the criticism she is receiving.

Astronaut started this thread by telling people who didn't like her picture(the people who didn't act the way she thought they should act)to "chill the f**k out." Tactless, whether you like the picture or not. But she stated her opinion, to which she is entitled. But everyone who disagrees with her, for whatever reason, is also just as entitled to their own opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aziajs I think it is of great concern to people that someone, anyone would not be effected by their knowledge of history, in general really, but specifically WWII and Hitler. Ignorance is one thing but even when you have been informed if it still doesn't resonate with you I think there is a problem. It does speak of who you are. It does speak of what you think and believe. It does speak of the impact that you have on the world and everyone in it, directly and indirectly.

Ratmist, I think this response pretty much hits it on the head in relationship to your second statement.

Most of the posts in this thread have been fairly constructive. But in my opinion, there have also been an unsettling number that kind of go something like: "I know Hitler was bad but it was in the past. And I know it still upsets people but I don't care because I'm entitled to say and do whatever I want to." A valid viewpoint, but not a very nice one as it could be construed as lacking in empathy and compassion for the rest of humanity. It does give reason to wonder about what kind of person the poster is. Most of us posting have never actually met and probably never will; there's nothing to go on other than what's been posted. I won't speak for anyone else, but I would want to try and give the poster benefit of the doubt by assuming they are ignorant/young/uninformed, etc instead of intentionally trying to be objectionable.