Prolife Or Prochoice

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 It annoys me that other people think that these children that are getting aborted aren't "real" human beings... they look at them as a "pregnancy" instead of a CHILD. These CHILDREN who are being killed have real feelings, real wants, real needs, real GOALS,... and to deny them even the perpetual CHANCE to reach these goals is not a decision any doctor, mother, or father can make. The only person who can take away a life off of this Earth is God and I dont see him in any abortion clinics.

And it annoys me when people try to tell me that a fetus is a human being.

Also, assuming your God is the Christian God, last time I checked, that God is everywhere.

It's great that you feel so strongly about your position and your child. Others feel equally strongly about their positions and the decisions that they have made in their lives. I agree with your earlier statement that we should do more to prevent unwanted pregnancies, but one cannot account for every single situation. There will be rapes, incest, busted condoms (been there), people forgetting to take their pill one flustered morning (been there), people forgetting that antibiotics will cancel out the pill (been there), and the fact that all contraceptives are only at best 99% effective.

There's always that 1% chance that it's a mistake. And well... to err is human, and to forgive is divine, right? In my opinion, if there is a God, the scope of love and forgiveness that this God must have is immense. We are deeply flawed and frankly, we're really good at judging each other and judging ourselves. More compassion is what this world needs, not more judgement. You may not think that God exists in abortion clinics, but I've found more compassion and sympathy in those places than I've ever found in the people that stand outside them with angry placards and revolting pictures of dead fetuses.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer On the flip side, just because one is impoverished as a child doesn't mean one grows up to be an impoverished adult.

I agree.. my mother grew up in EXTREAME poverty with her 6 sisters, one brother, and sexully abusive and cheating father... only one of the children ended up becoming poverty-ridden.... all of my other aunts and uncle are EXTREAMLY wealthy (including my mother)... one of my aunts owns and is the head of 3/4 of statefarm in texas...

It goes along with my point that it's not fair to deny a human being the chance to make thier lives something amazing...

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer On the flip side, just because one is impoverished as a child doesn't mean one grows up to be an impoverished adult. I got a phone call about a friend of mine last night, she'd recently had an abortion and developed a uterine infection as a complication. She's barely 30 and had to have a full emergency hysterectomy. I've done the procedure several times, it's not fun by any stretch of the imagination. It's also not as easy as people would have others believe.

That's awful. On the flipside, I know of someone whose friend has recently passed away suddenly because she had an embolism as a result of the pill. She was only 26.

Like any surgery, there is the risk of complications and follow-up physical problems. I think some people gloss it over as a relatively easy thing because it is frightening and it's easier to believe it will be quick, relatively painless, with few consequences. I think it's because of this that all the doctors and medical professionals involved with family planning and sexual health that I've ever spoken with have been brutally honest with me about the possibilities of what could go wrong and why (this was during pregnancy scares when contraception had a high probability of failing and it was past the morning-after-pill window). This included the mental side of what it could cost, as well as the physical.

I've never had an abortion and I hope I never need one, but I think it's better to have the right to control my reproductive health than to leave it up to chance that the condom will never break, the pill will never fail, etc. That being said, the probability of an embolism due to the pill is the reason I stopped taking it years ago. That and it fucked me up physically, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 It goes along with my point that it's not fair to deny a human being the chance to make thier lives something amazing...

But not everyone agrees when a human becomes a human.

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Originally Posted by ratmist I've never had an abortion and I hope I never need one, but I think it's better to have the right to control my reproductive health than to leave it up to chance that the condom will never break, the pill will never fail, etc.

That's my thing...I think everyone should be able control what happens with their own bodies on their own terms, without judgment from other people who may not agree with the decision that was made.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I agree.. my mother grew up in EXTREAME poverty with her 6 sisters, one brother, and sexully abusive and cheating father... only one of the children ended up becoming poverty-ridden.... all of my other aunts and uncle are EXTREAMLY wealthy (including my mother)... one of my aunts owns and is the head of 3/4 of statefarm in texas... It goes along with my point that it's not fair to deny a human being the chance to make thier lives something amazing...

It's not that I don't agree with you, but I'm merely stating that if someone doesn't want to have a child because he/she can't afford it, that's a valid position.

It isn't a virtue to be raised in poverty any more than it's a virtue to be raised with money. People often say that if you can't afford something, you should think again about trying to have it anyway. This applies to human beings too.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist And it annoys me when people try to tell me that a fetus is a human being.

Main Entry: fe·tus Pronunciation: \ˈfē-təs\Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful — more at feminineDate: 14th century: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth


What part of that DEFINITION does it say that a fetus isn't a human being? Thats the most immature iditiot thing Ive heard someone say yet. Normally I'm prepared to argue that an "embryo" is a human being... Ive never had to argue that a FETUS is a human being. Any single person who has taken a standard biology class knows that a fetus is a human being.

Despite what those who are uneducated about abortion may believe, there is NO dispute in the medical community about when life begins. Life begins at conception.
The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

Human Embryology & Teratology
Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo...

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth
Harvard University Medical School

"It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive...It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni
Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception."

Dr. Jerome LeJeune
Professor of Genetics, University of Descartes

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. [It] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion...it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."


So please, explain to me again how a fetus is not a human being? I'd love to see some data to back that up as well... I'm pretty sure Ive done a pretty decent job backing MYSELF up.. so until you can produce some scientific data that says that life doesnt begin at conception... or (ha) that a FETUS IS NOT A HUMAN... than you really have no argument.

 

[concertina]

I believe you've provided all the information *yourself* to prove that a fetus isn't a human being, merely, a *DEVELOPING* one. The *potential* to be a human being is there; it is not one YET!

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Shimmer I think if you read my before stated post, that it doesnt really matter if people agree when a human becomes a human... the scientific community... nature, law, agrees when a human becomes a human.. Just because I dont agree with you that that sky is blue, or that gravity exists, or that a whale is a mammal... doesnt make it not true.

A human becomes a human from the instant that the sperm meets the egg. That is why it is SO urgent that instead of making it "ok" to END that tiny human's life.. that we find a way for people to PREVEN their unwanted pregnancies.. as a PP said, there are so many things that happen even in preventing an unwanted pregnancy (I fall into that category. My 3 month old son is a Yaz... same pill same time of the day, NEVER MISSED ONE, .01% chance baby).... but it is safe, and true to say that a human becomes a human that SECOND that the sperm fertalizes the egg. It is a human. Science agrees on that fact. There's no disputing it. Because someone is ill-informed about when a human DOES infact become a human doesn't make them "right."...

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Main Entry: fe·tus Pronunciation: \ˈfē-təs\Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful — more at feminineDate: 14th century: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth What part of that DEFINITION does it say that a fetus isn't a human being? Thats the most immature iditiot thing Ive heard someone say yet. Normally I'm prepared to argue that an "embryo" is a human being... Ive never had to argue that a FETUS is a human being. Any single person who has taken a standard biology class knows that a fetus is a human being. Despite what those who are uneducated about abortion may believe, there is NO dispute in the medical community about when life begins. Life begins at conception. The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18. "[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." Human Embryology & Teratology Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55. "Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo... Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth Harvard University Medical School "It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive...It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception." Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania "I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception." Dr. Jerome LeJeune Professor of Genetics, University of Descartes "After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. [It] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion...it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception." So please, explain to me again how a fetus is not a human being? I'd love to see some data to back that up as well... I'm pretty sure Ive done a pretty decent job backing MYSELF up.. so until you can produce some scientific data that says that life doesnt begin at conception... or (ha) that a FETUS IS NOT A HUMAN... than you really have no argument.

That whole part that says "developing" vs "actually".

A road's not a road until the path is complete.

A fetus is in development, but isn't actually 'there' yet, so to speak.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Shimmer I think if you read my before stated post, that it doesnt really matter if people agree when a human becomes a human... the scientific community... nature, law, agrees when a human becomes a human.. Just because I dont agree with you that that sky is blue, or that gravity exists, or that a whale is a mammal... doesnt make it not true. A human becomes a human from the instant that the sperm meets the egg. That is why it is SO urgent that instead of making it "ok" to END that tiny human's life.. that we find a way for people to PREVEN their unwanted pregnancies.. as a PP said, there are so many things that happen even in preventing an unwanted pregnancy (I fall into that category. My 3 month old son is a Yaz... same pill same time of the day, NEVER MISSED ONE, .01% chance baby).... but it is safe, and true to say that a human becomes a human that SECOND that the sperm fertalizes the egg. It is a human. Science agrees on that fact. There's no disputing it. Because someone is ill-informed about when a human DOES infact become a human doesn't make them "right."...

I think it's fairly safe to say that abstinence teaching doesn't work. Education is what is important. Saying "Don't do this" is ineffective. Saying "If you do this _____ could happen" has a lot more impact.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by concertina I believe you've provided all the information *yourself* to prove that a fetus isn't a human being, merely, a *DEVELOPING* one. The *potential* to be a human being is there; it is not one YET!

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

Human Embryology & Teratology
Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo...


What part of that says that the human being is "developing?" the only thing i see is "a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed..." and taking "human development beings" out of context doesnt count sweetie. It is clearly a substatement of "a zygote is the beginning of a new human being"

How is that hard to understand? I dont get it.. this is what is so disturbing.. people put blinders on in order to justify the killing of human beings to themselves...


I was also making the point that a fetus is a human being. When I was pregnant, my son was CONTINULY referred to as "the fetus" by many doctors... Are you telling me that the child occupying my body was not a human being? For you all, when does human life "start?" When is it "ok" to perform the abotion to kill a child.

The "gruesome" and "grotesque" pictures of fetuses that have been ripped apart durring an abortion are meant to make the CLEAR statement that that is a PERSON.... Im STILL not sure how that's hard to understand.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer That whole part that says "developing" vs "actually". A road's not a road until the path is complete. A fetus is in development, but isn't actually 'there' yet, so to speak.

So my son, at 37 weeks.. 3 weeks before he was "completely done developing"... was not a human being? Im just wondering where your "beginning" and "ending" of human life is....

All humans are constantly "in development" i believe it is safe to say that not one person is done "developing" intellectually or physically until they have died...

Kind of like what happens when an abortion is performed.

Somehow this window of being out of a mothers womb and in a mother's womb gives the right to end a life.

btw.. my son was born at 37 weeks.. not completely developed yet... some might even say still "a fetus"

 

[concertina]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Shimmer I think if you read my before stated post, that it doesnt really matter if people agree when a human becomes a human... the scientific community... nature, law, agrees when a human becomes a human.. Just because I dont agree with you that that sky is blue, or that gravity exists, or that a whale is a mammal... doesnt make it not true.

No. Just no. There is *NOT* agreement in the scientific community about when *human* life begins. You can pull a few quotes from a few doctors all you want, but thats simply not true. In some sense, an egg and sperm are alive. So should we all not use birth control because "every sperm is sacred?!"

You can argue *personhood* until you are blue in the face. However, as a woman, I have the right to decide what happens to my own body. Pregnancy included.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I think it's fairly safe to say that abstinence teaching doesn't work. Education is what is important. Saying "Don't do this" is ineffective. Saying "If you do this _____ could happen" has a lot more impact.

I completely agree with you.

 

[concertina]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 What part of that says that the human being is "developing?" the only thing i see is "a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed..." and taking "human development beings" out of context doesnt count sweetie. It is clearly a substatement of "a zygote is the beginning of a new human being" How is that hard to understand? I dont get it.. this is what is so disturbing.. people put blinders on in order to justify the killing of human beings to themselves... I was also making the point that a fetus is a human being. When I was pregnant, my son was CONTINULY referred to as "the fetus" by many doctors... Are you telling me that the child occupying my body was not a human being? For you all, when does human life "start?" When is it "ok" to perform the abotion to kill a child.

Wow, you managed to completely quote parts of of your 'research' that only backs up your position. Amazing!

I'd be refering to this part:
Main Entry: fe·tus Pronunciation: \ˈfē-təs\Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful — more at feminineDate: 14th century: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth

And you're absolutely right; the FETUS inside you was NOT a human being. When he took his first breath outside of your body, with his own two lungs, he became one.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by concertina No. Just no. There is *NOT* agreement in the scientific community about when *human* life begins. You can pull a few quotes from a few doctors all you want, but thats simply not true. In some sense, an egg and sperm are alive. So should we all not use birth control because "every sperm is sacred?!" You can argue *personhood* until you are blue in the face. However, as a woman, I have the right to decide what happens to my own body. Pregnancy included.

So if you chose to have an abortion, it is correct to say (in 99%*** of cases where a woman choses to have an abortion) that you chose to have sex in the first place?Therefore, it could just as easily be argued that these women already made their choice when they chose to engage in behavior that often leads to pregnancy. Ultimately, restricting a woman's right to abortion does not restrict a woman's right to not be pregnant. Abortion, after all, does not keep a woman from being pregnant. Abstinence does that. Abortion simply ends the pregnancy of an already pregnant woman by killing the embryo or fetus living within her.

In the end, we are only free to choose so long as that choice doesn't kill or harm someone else, and our government exists to take away those choices that do. Nobody argues that a man should be free to choose when the context is sexual assault. What a fool he would be to try and justify rape by saying, "My body, my choice." Why? Because rape is a violent assault which involves more than just one body. And so is abortion. The heart of the issue is not "choice". The real question is humanity, and nothing short of anarchy can guarantee the perfect freedom of choice.


***Just over 1% of all abortions in the United States happen as a result of rape: Torres A and Forrest JD, Why do women have abortions? Family Planning Perspectives, 1988, 24(4):169-176.


(abort73)

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by concertina And you're absolutely right; the FETUS inside you was NOT a human being. When he took his first breath outside of your body, with his own two lungs, he became one.

Wow- okay, from here on out I wont be arguing anything else about you

Because this is the single dumbest thing I have EVER read lol..

Explain to me how if a man kills a woman who is pregnant it is considered a "double homicide"... is the life only sacred if the woman who is carrying it wants it?

My son responded to my touch, my voice.. outside voices... his heart beat, he swallowed amniotic fluid, he got the hiccups every day.. he was periodically up from 3am-5am EVERY MORNING...he sucked his thumb, smiled, and even cried in the womb (I have 4d sonogram pictures and videos to prove it.) He fell into periodic hours of sleep as I walked around waitressing and to this day refuses to fall asleep unless Im walking around with him in my arms... he responded to pain... I had an internal heart moniter put on him when he was STILL IN MY WOMB... I was told that he might feel pain because it screwed into the outer layer of skin in his head.. when it was performed he kicked and punched and the sonogram showed that he had actual tears and a frown on his face.

Because he was not taking in oxygen and reverting it to carbon dioxide is the single dumbest argument I have ever heard to when a human becomes a human. Really laughable. Really.

 

[concertina]

Ahhh yes, the old 'sex is ONLY for procreation' argument and 'if you have sex, even if you use birth control and try to actively prevent pregnancy, you should be forced to stay pregnant because you *KNEW* what *COULD* happen'.

Man, my childfree husband will be *SO* upset!!

News flash! Sex is for more than procreation!! And women should not be demonized for choosing to prevent or end pregnancy!

You made a decision that was right for *you*; great! And if you don't want an abortion? Thats fine too; don't have one!

When my having an abortion *directly affects* your life...you'll have a point. Until then. No.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Wow- okay, from here on out I wont be arguing anything else about you Because this is the single dumbest thing I have EVER read lol.. Explain to me how if a man kills a woman who is pregnant it is considered a "double homicide"... is the life only sacred if the woman who is carrying it wants it? My son responded to my touch, my voice.. outside voices... his heart beat, he swallowed amniotic fluid, he got the hiccups every day.. he was periodically up from 3am-5am EVERY MORNING...he sucked his thumb, smiled, and even cried in the womb (I have 4d sonogram pictures and videos to prove it.) He fell into periodic hours of sleep as I walked around waitressing and to this day refuses to fall asleep unless Im walking around with him in my arms... he responded to pain... I had an internal heart moniter put on him when he was STILL IN MY WOMB... I was told that he might feel pain because it screwed into the outer layer of skin in his head.. when it was performed he kicked and punched and the sonogram showed that he had actual tears and a frown on his face. Because he was not taking in oxygen and reverting it to carbon dioxide is the single dumbest argument I have ever heard to when a human becomes a human. Really laughable. Really.

I think the general consensus is that when the life is viable outside the womb we're talking humanity, but when the life is essentially parasitic on the mother's body, we're talking fetal.

Either way, forcing YOUR morals on another person is just wrong because what YOU believe for yourself and your family may not be right for everyone else.

 

[concertina]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Wow- okay, from here on out I wont be arguing anything else about you Because this is the single dumbest thing I have EVER read lol.. Explain to me how if a man kills a woman who is pregnant it is considered a "double homicide"... is the life only sacred if the woman who is carrying it wants it?

Man, you really like to insult people, don't you?

Because the Anti-Choice lobby got one over on us with Bush in office, thats why.

Perhaps what I should have said was: when he's no longer depending on your body for support, he's a human being, which is closer to the core of what I meant.