Prolife Or Prochoice

[SkylarV217]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Given some of the responses on this board, I don't think that woman always gets support, and that makes me very angry indeed.

I agree here, That is the whole reason I posted this topic , a girl posted her questions about what she should do and she was getting slammed with huge opinions from both sides. I know my views, but I'm not going to judge someone else for their decisions. When I went through my choice.... I wish I had fist had accounts of other people in the same situation. The topic is taboo, most people will not openly discuss that they considered or had an abortion. For me it is important to let people know where I stand, from there I will not condemn you for your views or actions. As women weather we agree with each other or not we should stand by each other. Even other religious women like me should know that. We are instructed to love each other, not to judge or condemn . As long as you know where I stand. I will be there for you.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkylarV217 I agree here, That is the whole reason I posted this topic , a girl posted her questions about what she should do and she was getting slammed with huge opinions from both sides. I know my views, but I'm not going to judge someone else for their decisions. When I went through my choice.... I wish I had fist had accounts of other people in the same situation. The topic is taboo, most people will not openly discuss that they considered or had an abortion. For me it is important to let people know where I stand, from there I will not condemn you for your views or actions. As women weather we agree with each other or not we should stand by each other. Even other religious women like me should know that. We are instructed to love each other, not to judge or condemn . As long as you know where I stand. I will be there for you.

Well, when we found out we were pregnant, it wasn't the happiest of circumstances because we'd decided earlier that day that we didn't want to get pregnant just yet. Our whole conception saga is in another thread (here: http://specktra.net/f261/pregnant-we...d-about-95000/) so I won't repeat it here.

I will say that I did think about aborting this pregnancy - my first pregnancy, my first child-to-be - for about a week, maybe longer. During the first trimester, sometimes I wanted my body to spontaneously abort. Other times, when I had blood spotting, I felt very disappointed that maybe this meant we were losing the pregnancy.

I don't think it's an easy decision to come to, and it's not helped by people being adamant about what they think they'd do. Frankly, I don't believe anyone knows what they'd do until they're in that situation. You have to take into account so many other factors to make an informed decision. Splitting it down to a simple fact - "It's an innocent baby!" - doesn't answer the question of how you're going to afford it, whether you're ready to be a mother, whether you can handle the changes in your life, etc. In some societies and cultures, being pregnant out of wedlock is a death sentence, or an expulsion from a community and everything you've ever known and loved. In other places, it can be weathered without too much bother. It just depends on who's shoes you decide to stand in for a while.

Being ready to have sex is also not the same as being ready to be a mother. I really hate it when people equate the two and use that as a battering ram in this topic. Sex is so much more than procreation. It's part of being human - it's a craving we all get for the pleasure it alone can provide. It's the need for human contact. It's the desire to give and receive bliss. Only in certain circumstances is it explicitly for producing a child.

I don't think it's surprising that most of the girls I knew back home that were adamantly pro-life have grown up to become pro-choice women. I'm one of them. With age comes experience, and eventually most of those girls realised that as women, we need the choice to make the decision about what happens to our bodies. If we can't control this female-only function, how can we hope to be of equal standing to men in any human society - men who don't have to put up with this biological reality?

 

[rbella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Yes I would, but the laws are meant to be dispassionate.

I agree. But, I also agree that laws are put in place by people. It would be almost impossible for a person to vote on what should be a law without using opinion. That is why there are liberals, conservatives, independents, etc. All of these people in office vote for enacting laws based on their personal opinions which more than likely are derived from personal experience. I'm not saying that it is right, it is just simply human nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist The right to have an abortion is not enshrined with the opinion that a fetus is a human being. Abortion laws vary from country to country, so I'm being deliberately vague here. When we're talking about people's opinions on abortion, I just wanted to state that someone's opinion of whether abortion is right or wrong doesn't have anything to do access to a basic human right.

Basic human rights still come down to opinion. I truly agree with most of your ideas, but I'm just trying to see the other side of the coin. I, like you, don't want someone else telling me what to do with my body. But, there are people who absolutely believe that once you are pregnant, that right is gone. It doesn't mean "My Body=My choice" to them. Their idea of a "basic human right" differs from yours. With regard to abortion, the idea of "basic human right" is also a matter of opinion. Some feel that a "basic human right" is not to murder and that means that the opinion of a fetus being a human being has to come into play. Because to them, a fetus is a human and has the "basic human right" to live.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Of course people are affected by their past, their experiences, etc. I'm not belittling that fact. I'm just saying it's not relevant to whether or not a woman should have the right to an abortion. I realise this is where the debate part steps in, but this is where my mind wanders when people mention their birth/conception stories. It may make for interesting reading, but it's not relevant to whether a woman has the right to choose an abortion. (That sounds really damned bitchy I know, but I am very passionate about a woman's right to choose what happens or does not happen to her body.)

I don't think you are bitchy at all. I just think that you feel very strongly about this. But, I think it is important when listening to other views to realize that the people who are sharing their stories do feel it is relevant. Probably just as strongly as you feel it isn't.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella I agree. But, I also agree that laws are put in place by people. It would be almost impossible for a person to vote on what should be a law without using opinion. That is why there are liberals, conservatives, independents, etc. All of these people in office vote for enacting laws based on their personal opinions which more than likely are derived from personal experience. I'm not saying that it is right, it is just simply human nature.

Somewhat true. Some laws are made without asking for voter's opinions. They're made by people, yes, but legal and medical experts that try to come to a balanced conclusion that isn't unduly influenced by their personal opinions.

This is why it pisses me off so much that in parts of America (depends on the state), if you ask for the Morning-After pill, a pharmacist can deny you access to that pill on the grounds of his/her personal beliefs. In my opinion, they should do their damned job and keep out of someone else's business. They're taking their personal opinion and preventing access to someone else's rights. That is just never right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella Basic human rights still come down to opinion. I truly agree with most of your ideas, but I'm just trying to see the other side of the coin. I, like you, don't want someone else telling me what to do with my body. But, there are people who absolutely believe that once you are pregnant, that right is gone. It doesn't mean "My Body=My choice" to them. Their idea of a "basic human right" differs from yours. With regard to abortion, the idea of "basic human right" is also a matter of opinion. Some feel that a "basic human right" is not to murder and that means that the opinion of a fetus being a human being has to come into play. Because to them, a fetus is a human and has the "basic human right" to live.

Unless the woman is raped or the victim of abuse. Then the fetus doesn't necessarily have the right to life, for most pro-life supporters.

Reminds me of a definition of Sen. Bill Napoli (R/S. Dakota), who stated that to him, the only acceptable definition of a impregnated rape victim, who could therefore ask for an abortion in South Dakota, was as follows: "A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life."

napoli (not to be confused with the proper noun, which indicates the Italian city)
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): napolied
Pronunciation: nA'poli
1. To brutalize and rape, sodomize as bad as you can possibly make it, a young, religious virgin woman who was saving herself for marriage.
2. To hella rape somebody.
Etymology: From State Senator Bill Napoli's (R-SD) description of an acceptable rape that would merit an exemption from South Dakota's abortion ban.
Example of usage: "Did you hear? Laura's dad totally napolied her, but according to Utah law, she still has to obtain his permission before getting an abortion."

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella I don't think you are bitchy at all. I just think that you feel very strongly about this. But, I think it is important when listening to other views to realize that the people who are sharing their stories do feel it is relevant. Probably just as strongly as you feel it isn't.

I think I'm pretty bitchy, more so now with the pregnancy. I also think though that while it's good to talk about personal experiences and state opinion, I still think the right to have an abortion should be protected.

I'm not arguing that people shouldn't share - far from it. I just think that the board needed reminding that these stories aren't a good enough reason to argue that abortion should be illegal.

I just remember the look of absolute fear in friends' eyes when they found out they were pregnant, and did not want that situation. I remember the small relief they had when someone - me - was compassionate and understanding. More than anything though, I remember that they didn't have to go to a backstreet butcher or resort to a coat hanger. That is why I get bitchy. We can never go back to that!

 

[Colorqueen]

Some of the most amazing people I have met were the result of rapes that their mother went through- they have done more for the world than most others I know of.

In fact, I have even had the experience of meeting a woman that survived the brutality of abortion that left her disabled- she is one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen with thanks to be alive.

How about pro choice only if mother is required to see ultrasound of the baby that she is preparing to kill first..............after all, a person would demand to know all options of they were having their leg amputated- they would want to see how bad it was first- or if there was another way...

A true choice is one that is informed of all sides of the situation so that the decision is based upon truth, not half-truths or chanted slogans.

The problem is not the choice, it is the fact that many who chant the mantra of choice and self possessed body rights want it to be based upon not allowing the woman to see the little person inside of her before making that choice.

There seems to be a focus on trying to keep this issue on a slogan waving theme chanted level instead of a personal interactive level seeing exactly WHAT it is that a woman is about to do before they do it from all aspects and letting her make a completely informed choice.

I have had MANY (pro-choice) friends who have all said over the years that they wished they had known about the regrets that would face them years later and the traumatic stress that would re-visit them year after year around the time that their baby's life was ended. Thinking about how old he/she would be now, and wishing they had been told the complete ramifications would be in each choice that she would make. It is a big problem- rarely talked about in general conversation or any coverage of this issue that is broadcast to the general public.

And that is not to mention all of the deaths directly related to abortions that are hidden from the public. There are MANY deaths related to it- while it is legal.

One of the things that impacted me was meeting the former owner of a series of abortion clinics. She was very high up in the industry and very wealthy and when she was forced to confront what it was that she was REALLY doing, she left and started to tell the whole truth about it- at risk to her life. Abortion is big business.

And on another slant- both cases in the US that were used to manipulate the laws were not even about abortion- the women used by the attorneys to secure their own financial interests have a lot to say about what REALLY happened back then- they were used and manipulated in ways unimaginable. All of it was to secure the legitimacy of income for those with higher monetary interest in the outcome than their own well being (meaning the women they used to steer the court cases).

If those cases were conducted with any other subject matter in the same manner, they would have been thrown out of court.

Roe V Wade- (I think the lady's name is Norma )she was not even pregnant at the time of the case. You should read about the actual case- the first time I encountered the transcripts, my jaw dropped to the floor.

Anyway, no hysterical fist waving, please.

I have been on all sides of this issue- and I have also been indifferent too. Then I began to search for myself to support my position and ended up seeing things I did not expect to see at all. Everyone has their own path to take. You are free to take yours, as I am mine.

You are free to agree or disagree with anything, but please remember, we are all entitled to opinions on things whether we agree with them or not, so no emotional outbursts, OK? I am easy to talk to without the drama. ;D

 

[CantAffordMAC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorqueen Some of the most amazing people I have met were the result of rapes that their mother went through- they have done more for the world than most others I know of. In fact, I have even had the experience of meeting a woman that survived the brutality of abortion that left her disabled- she is one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen with thanks to be alive. How about pro choice only if mother is required to see ultrasound of the baby that she is preparing to kill first..............after all, a person would demand to know all options of they were having their leg amputated- they would want to see how bad it was first- or if there was another way...

I was able to see the picture of my baby on the monitor, and they printed a picture for me as well. It may sound morbid to some. It was my choice. Looking at the picture made it harder for me, so I hid it somewhere and I haven't looked at it in quite some time. When I looked at the picture, i thought about what could have been. But it is clear to me that I made the right choice. With how much I've matured since that time, and how much....horrible things I've encountered since then (involvingmy relationship with my boyfriend)...I think that I would have been in an awful awful place right now. I think that my life would have been further complicated by havign a baby, and sometimes I wonder...even with all of the love that I had in my relationship, if me and my boyfriend would have worked out. I'm pretty sure he would have taken care of his responsibility. But neither one of us would be able to follow our dreams, like we are very much doing now.

(FYI- the picture didn't show like, an actual ultrasound that you see your little baby and everything. It is just a small lump, you cannot tell where the head is, or that it is even a baby. They said it was only a couple of inches long...11 weeks)

And now I know that I am lucky to have gone to the clinic that I went to. Such a nice doctor, genuine...nice nurses (who didn't talk down to me or judge me, or give me "looks"...just understanding). And an absolutely wonderful anesthesiologist (sp). With my checkup appointment I was in perfect shape, and we went over birth control methods and what I would be using....obviously so that I would never go through this again. And the day I left after the procedure, I was given a month of birth control (free)

I do not use birth control currently, for a few different reasons. but I do have safe sex. If I were to get pregnant now, I would understand that it was most likely because I wasn't using birth control, and a condom wasn't enough. I couldn't go through another abortion. And that is my choice. It is much much much harder than many people realize. Especially being that I want to have kids and start a family so so bad....just at the right time.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorqueen How about pro choice only if mother is required to see ultrasound of the baby that she is preparing to kill first..............after all, a person would demand to know all options of they were having their leg amputated- they would want to see how bad it was first- or if there was another way... The problem is not the choice, it is the fact that many who chant the mantra of choice and self possessed body rights want it to be based upon not allowing the woman to see the little person inside of her before making that choice. There seems to be a focus on trying to keep this issue on a slogan waving theme chanted level instead of a personal interactive level seeing exactly WHAT it is that a woman is about to do before they do it from all aspects and letting her make a completely informed choice.

The scanning service is routinely offered in most Family Planning clinics. To state or imply that pro-choice campaigners or abortion clinics actively seek to discourage reviewing the consequences of abortion to a pregnant woman seeking this service is wrong. I've had counselling from Family Planning clinics when I've had pregnancy scares, and I can tell you that what you've claimed does not in any way correspond to the treatment I received.

I don't know where you got your information from, but the clinics have policies involving on-going care to help women come to terms with whatever decision they end up making - whether to keep or to abort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorqueen And that is not to mention all of the deaths directly related to abortions that are hidden from the public. There are MANY deaths related to it- while it is legal.

If that's true, how do you know about it? Where's your information from? Why is it impossible for me to find Pub-Med citations about the high risk of death as a result of an abortion?

Abortion, if practiced legally and by a qualified surgeon, is safe, though like any surgical procedure there are possible risks. The clinics and the surgeons are legally obliged to go through these risks with the patient and ensure that she understands every aspect of the procedure, including the risks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorqueen One of the things that impacted me was meeting the former owner of a series of abortion clinics. She was very high up in the industry and very wealthy and when she was forced to confront what it was that she was REALLY doing, she left and started to tell the whole truth about it- at risk to her life. Abortion is big business.

If this is true, I would like to be able to find some information about her. Care to share her name?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorqueen And on another slant- both cases in the US that were used to manipulate the laws were not even about abortion- the women used by the attorneys to secure their own financial interests have a lot to say about what REALLY happened back then- they were used and manipulated in ways unimaginable. All of it was to secure the legitimacy of income for those with higher monetary interest in the outcome than their own well being (meaning the women they used to steer the court cases). If those cases were conducted with any other subject matter in the same manner, they would have been thrown out of court.

This is very vague and I can't follow it. Can you give a bit more information?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorqueen Roe V Wade- (I think the lady's name is Norma )she was not even pregnant at the time of the case. You should read about the actual case- the first time I encountered the transcripts, my jaw dropped to the floor.

Her name is Norma L. McCorvey ("Jane Roe"). She has had a very rough life, if we can believe her testimony in numerous television specials she's appeared in.

She wanted an abortion and claimed that she'd been raped. Later she admitted this was a lie, and she'd actually simply gotten pregnant out of wedlock and given the baby up for adoption.

She's claimed she was manipulated by the two female lawyers who brought the case "Roe v Wade" to court. For a while she also claimed to be a lesbian. Now she claims she isn't. She converted to Protestant Christianity and was baptized before network TV cameras by the Rev. Philip ("Flip") Benham. Years later she converted to Catholicism.

Bottom line, she's a very sad woman who's been manipulated on both sides of the argument. At the end of the day, I don't think she's had an abortion at all.

This isn't the point of Roe v Wade though. If she claimed she'd been raped to the lawyers, why shouldn't they have believed her? And isn't it more important that women that truly need this procedure actually get it?

 

[Girl about town]

I believe that if the option of abortion was taken away from women it would be a disaster and a step back to the dark ages! But personally i am pro life, i nearly aborted my son and the very thought made me change my mind about abortion i believe many women don't realise the extent of what they are doing. Having an abortion doesn't make things the same as before the pregnancy it changes a persons life and not for the better.
Having a child is a beautiful thing and so many women take it lightly xx

 

[SkylarV217]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karen_B A lot of the time I find this type of argumentation to sound like girls and women should be punished for their irresponsibility. I'm not saying that is what you are saying, but it is a vibe I often get. I don't think children should be used as a means to teach women a lesson.

Should the the girls be punished , or the life that they created ?

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkylarV217 Should the the girls be punished , or the life that they created ?

If the life isn't brought to cognizance and awareness of repercussions of actions, it doesn't know any better, does it?

 

[Karen_B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkylarV217 Should the the girls be punished , or the life that they created ?

I don't think either should be punished, but then I don't feel an 8 week old embryo can be punished.

 

[S.S.BlackOrchid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkylarV217 Should the the girls be punished , or the life that they created ?

Being brought where you aren't wanted is more of a punishment.

Raising a child is something that a person should be willing to and have the resources to do, not something people are made to do as a punishment for something. No child deserves to be a punishment.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

 

[SkylarV217]

looking at all of the photos of the babies that have been aborted really put the act into perspective for me. They wern't just clumps of mater, but actual humans little feet and heads and hands.

 

[blindpassion]

I'm all for free speech and I'm all for voicing opinions but I dont think it would be at all appropriate to post pictures like the ones skylar was just speaking about above me,

they are very graphic and to any women whos had the courage to go through an abortion it wont be fair to post those... I just think its important for all of us to consider every womans feelings on this forum

<3 love.

 

[rbella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindpassion I'm all for free speech and I'm all for voicing opinions but I dont think it would be at all appropriate to post pictures like the ones skylar was just speaking about above me, they are very graphic and to any women whos had the courage to go through an abotion it wont be fair to post those... I just think its important for all of us to consider every womans feelings on this forum <3 love.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree. Skylar, I love you to death, but I don't think that is very fair to those who may have had to go through this. It cheapens the tone of this thread and begins to make it feel like a slam fest instead of intelligent conversation. Sorry, just my opinion.

 

[Celly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by melliquor I think that it is a selfish person that would have an abortion to save money or not go through the headache or an uncomfortable life. There are so many people looking to adopt a child, including me, and there isn't enough children out there. My opinion, is that you should only have an abortion if you are raped... there is no other reason to do it besides that.

I totally have to agree with you. Their are so many families who want to adopt. Abortion is murder bottom line. I had a abortion when I was 18 I though hey I am to young I still have my life to live I need to finish school blah blah blah. I regret doing it and not a day goes by that I don't think about it. I got pregnant again when I was 20 and kept it. I am now 23 and have to amazing boys that I love more then life it's self. Yes, its hard at times but if you work hard and stay focused. You will accomplish all your goals in dreams. I thought my boyfriend and I wouldnt finish school but we both graduated. He received a BA & AA in Marketing and Advertising and is now working as a mortagage broker and I completed with a certificate in Dental Assisting. I am currently a stay at home mom. We are so blessed that he has a good job that I dont need to work. We are Christians and we believe with God there's a way. Everything happens for a reason you live and you learn and you become a better person.

 

[ri0tdorque]

I'm sorry but I have to reply to this because I know for a fact that right now on the bizarre off chance I became pregnant I would get an abortion my husband and I have already discussed this.

Yes many people are wanting to adopt and maybe if the adoption process was not such a royal pain in the arse to go though more people would. I actually plan on fostering and if I can adopt once my son is a little older.

But that being said when you become pregnant you need not only to think about "oh it's a life" but what about what position YOU are in life at that moment. To just go off and have a child un-planned and un-thought of just because you accidentally got pregnant with no thought to how that will effect both yours and that childs life is just negligent. But in the end it should be a woman's choice. Pregnancy is not all roses and ice cream it's a very hard thing that can really mess up some women and the complications that go along with it can sometimes be deadly.

I can respect your opinion I'm just glad that at this time our Supreme Court has not yet ruled in such a way because I think it will a sad day when we are back to back-alley abortions preformed by sketchy doctors and women dying because of them.



Quote:

Originally Posted by melliquor I think that it is a selfish person that would have an abortion to save money or not go through the headache or an uncomfortable life. There are so many people looking to adopt a child, including me, and there isn't enough children out there. My opinion, is that you should only have an abortion if you are raped... there is no other reason to do it besides that.

 

[ri0tdorque]

Different strokes for different folks. I'm sorry that you regret your abortion and am happy to hear about your amazing little boys.

Personally the abortion that I had was one of the best things to happen to me. I look back on my life now and cringe at what road I would have taken. The man was very abusive, very un-supportive (he wanted to keep it at first though even though he had no job and I supported him), and I was really un-happy with him and where I was in life. If I had went though with the pregnancy I would have never been able to move cross country, never met my now husband and never would have been given the chance to have the wonderful little boy I have now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celly I totally have to agree with you. Their are so many families who want to adopt. Abortion is murder bottom line. I had a abortion when I was 18 I though hey I am to young I still have my life to live I need to finish school blah blah blah. I regret doing it and not a day goes by that I don't think about it. I got pregnant again when I was 20 and kept it. I am now 23 and have to amazing boys that I love more then life it's self. Yes, its hard at times but if you work hard and stay focused. You will accomplish all your goals in dreams. I thought my boyfriend and I wouldnt finish school but we both graduated. He received a BA & AA in Marketing and Advertising and is now working as a mortagage broker and I completed with a certificate in Dental Assisting. I am currently a stay at home mom. We are so blessed that he has a good job that I dont need to work. We are Christians and we believe with God there's a way. Everything happens for a reason you live and you learn and you become a better person.

 

[blindpassion]

It almost makes me sad when people are pro life (hear me out)
I definitely believe everyones intilted to their opinion, but like I've said earlier in this thread... pro-choice folks believe that every choice is justified, we accept every choice, we are the people FOR choice... whether you believe in abortions or not, whether you would have one yourself or not

I feel like pro-life folks can be very closed minded about this issue
and I completely understands thats just what you believe in, and like the lovely lady above me just said, different strokes for different folks... it still makes me sad

I just want to live in a world where choice is the option... not live in a world where someone tells you what is and isnt right for your body and your life.

I just feel when you take choice away from a woman, you're going back in time... choice should be the only option.