Prolife Or Prochoice

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer See the thing is that when a position is taken based on knee jerk emotional reaction and rhetoric, the validity of the position is somewhat diminished, because despite the speaker's passion and commitment to the subject, often the speaker is blinded to outside positions that may be valid counter arguments.

I undrstand what you're saying but doesnt that also make pro-choicers on this board who are fueled by personal emotional reasons, doesnt that diminish their posistion as well? Just because my posistion is pro-life and i have something emotional to back it up on doesnt make it an un-valid posistion. I think Ive backed up a LOT of my arguments with validitiy and research.

And for the record, Ive been pro-life my entire life.. not just when I got pregnant. I didnt "decide" to become pro-life when I got pregnant.. my pro-life stance enabled me to choise life for my son.. not the other way around.

 

[ratmist]

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Originally Posted by blindpassion I agree. She is an amazing woman.

Yall are making me blush.

Which reminds me. I need a new blush... *eyeballs eBay Shu Uemura bargains...*

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I undrstand what you're saying but doesnt that also make pro-choicers on this board who are fueled by personal emotional reasons, doesnt that diminish their posistion as well? Just because my posistion is pro-life and i have something emotional to back it up on doesnt make it an un-valid posistion. I think Ive backed up a LOT of my arguments with validitiy and research. And for the record, Ive been pro-life my entire life.. not just when I got pregnant. I didnt "decide" to become pro-life when I got pregnant.. my pro-life stance enabled me to choice life for my son.. not the other way around.

Choice.
You chose.
You got to choose.
You made the decision.

That's the whole stand point of people who are pro-choice.

Don't confuse pro-choice with pro-abortion.

 

[blindpassion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Choice. You chose. You got to choose. You made the decision. That's the whole stand point of people who are pro-choice. Don't confuse pro-choice with pro-abortion.

exactly exactly exactly exactly
I appreciate you so much for this post
I said something like this a page or so back in the thread.
Pro-choice means accepting everyones choices
We are the people for choice
We are accepting.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Don't confuse pro-choice with pro-abortion.

THANK YOU!

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Ratmist- I understand everything that you're saying and I agree with a lot of it. I think everyone here is taking my pro-life stance as an "I hate women who chose to get abortions" stance. I dont. I have many friends who have had abortions, and while I dont agree with their choice (just as they dont agree with mine to have kept my child)... I still love them and am friends with them. It doesnt change how I feel about them at all.

i think what confuses people about pro-lifers is that people who are exclusively against abortion are normally putting the life of the child over the life of the mother.. that being said.. I am always putting the right to live of the child over the "inconvience" of having a child or being pregnant of the mother...

Pro-lifers are just that. Pro-life. I am always in this stance going to put the sanctity of a child's life over any circumstance or unwantedness a mother or father feels towards this child. While I firmly believe that not every situation is going to turn out great if the child is kept, there are those situations that will... and the potential for a life of a child.. of an adult.. of a human.. is so sacred that..in my eyes... it cant be diminished just because of poverty, or unwantedness.

I simply do not believe that a choice to have sex makes it ok to use abortion as a form of birth control.

I also believe that I have a right to my opinion based on the fact that Ive BEEN in those situations. I continuly have been hearing "you have tunnel-vision.." "you're not thinking about people who have been in situations where they've needed to abort"... however if I had aborted my child simply because he was an unwanted pregnancy I highly doubt anyone would say I hadn't "been" in that posistion.

The only difference between me and the people who chose to abort is that i chose not to. I HAVE been in that posistion.. so i dont think it's fair to hear "you dont knwo what its like" because i know exactly what it's like.

 

[baby_love]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brittni The baby might suffer some emotional damage, yes, and of course that is horrible...but isn't there counseling, therapy, etc? I would rather be alive and have some issues to work out rather than dead. But again, I think it goes back to people not being raised correctly with the right morals, knowledge, and realism; what I mean by this is that if people were raised correctly then they wouldn't be selfish and stupid enough to have unprotected sex and use abortions as a birth control mechanism.

It's not so easy to just go to counseling and therapy and work through your problems. especially at a young age. It's not like putting a band-aid on.
Also, you're simplifying things way too much. you're basically saying, if your parents raise you well, things like condoms breaking and date rape won't happen.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I undrstand what you're saying but doesnt that also make pro-choicers on this board who are fueled by personal emotional reasons, doesnt that diminish their posistion as well? Just because my posistion is pro-life and i have something emotional to back it up on doesnt make it an un-valid posistion. I think Ive backed up a LOT of my arguments with validitiy and research.

The difference is that the argument you make would limit the freedom of others, and it's being based at least partially on personal emotional reasons.

My personal emotional reasons aren't being used to justify taking a freedom away from a fellow human being. Hence, it goes over a little better, perhaps.

It's also hard to wax lyrical over a sonogram photo of a fetus at 6 weeks. It's harder to be evocative and weepy over a sonogram photo of a glorified lima bean than it is to be touched by the behaviour of an actual human being in front of you.

And yes, you've quoted some textbooks. And I could pick up a few that dismiss your argument, and you could pick up more that would dismiss mine, and we could continue ad nauseum.

I'm being lazy and not picking up my books or looking through PubMed. But equally, I don't think I need to do that, in this case. And if I did, it'd fuel a flamewar instead of doing something more productive - like actually speaking to you, getting to know why you feel the way you do, etc. If we traded insults behind the security of medical textbooks, we'd basically be ignoring each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 And for the record, Ive been pro-life my entire life.. not just when I got pregnant. I didnt "decide" to become pro-life when I got pregnant.. my pro-life stance enabled me to choise life for my son.. not the other way around.

Great. I can see it was the right choice for you. Still don't see how your choice is any better, more valid, more correct than anyone else's choice.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist The difference is that the argument you make would limit the freedom of others, and it's being based at least partially on personal emotional reasons. My personal emotional reasons aren't being used to justify taking a freedom away from a fellow human being. Hence, it goes over a little better, perhaps. It's also hard to wax lyrical over a sonogram photo of a fetus at 6 weeks. It's harder to be evocative and weepy over a sonogram photo of a glorified lima bean than it is to be touched by the behaviour of an actual human being in front of you. And yes, you've quoted some textbooks. And I could pick up a few that dismiss your argument, and you could pick up more that would dismiss mine, and we could continue ad nauseum. I'm being lazy and not picking up my books or looking through PubMed. But equally, I don't think I need to do that, in this case. And if I did, it'd fuel a flamewar instead of doing something more productive - like actually speaking to you, getting to know why you feel the way you do, etc. If we traded insults behind the security of medical textbooks, we'd basically be ignoring each other. Great. I can see it was the right choice for you. Still don't see how your choice is any better, more valid, more correct than anyone else's choice.

The problem here is that people are confusing what im getting mad about and what im just voiceing my opinion about.

What im getting mad about is the poster telling me that while my son was inside my body while I was pregnant that he was never a human.. I dont understand how that's logical or even a point that can be made. Of course he was human.. he had fingerprints, he had all the body parts of a human, his heart beat, and he had the same chromosome count that makes a human a human ( which, btw... while many animals share the same number of chromosomes.. humans are the ONLY species who only have 46 chromosomes

)...

I dont know how a fetus ..which is infact latin for "little person".. is not a human? Especially when I see this at 28 weeks:

That's what makes me mad, haha. Because I know... I mean.. I dont know how you could tell me that at 28 weeks... THIS is not a human... that until he takes a breath and turns o2 into carbon dioxide that he's not a human.. that kind of rational would mean that that millions of people in this world hooked up to oxygen or breathing machines are not human.. just because my umbilical cord is allowing my child to recieve oxygen in the womb... doesnt make him any less human... you know what i mean?

My arguments aren't to belittle anyone... Im trying to make my point and... it definetley doesnt seem to be well recieved..

I understand.. and I sympathize from where you're coming... and I thank you for the understanding and "human"-like approach to this "argument."... I truley hope that you understand that it is statements like the afformentioned that make me "mad" and not the opinions of those around me. I dont "dislike" or bar any hatred towards people who have abortions.. and I dont believe that THEIR CHOICE is the wrong choice for them in their heads.. I just believe that it's wrong to kill a human being. Whether they are breathing or relying on their mother for oxygen...

What I guess im trying to say ist hat--- to me this isn't personal between anyone here and I think some people are taking it that way. It's not. I dont "personally" judge anyone or think that their chioce is wrong for what they believe. I just think their choice is wrong for what I believe is right. And I still dont think that it makes my stance invalid because I believe something different.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I am always putting the right to live of the child over the "inconvience" of having a child or being pregnant of the mother...

How can you put the rights of a fetus over the rights of the actual woman standing in front of you? I just don't understand that. What about the actual woman standing right in front of you? Her rights automatically become nothing because she's inadvertantly become pregnant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Pro-lifers are just that. Pro-life.

No, they tend to be pro-fetus, not pro-life in the sense that you also think about the rights of the pregnant woman. You choose to favour the potential of life (fetus) over the actual life in front of you (the woman). That makes zero sense to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 it cant be diminished just because of poverty, or unwantedness.

Oh yes it can. Childrens lives are diminished every day because of poverty and neglect. Every day, studies come out that show that children are often doomed to repeat cycles of poverty, even in the richest nations where there are programs and initiatives set up specifically to combat this problem.

Poverty is a social disease and it blights the lives of children. To say that every kid gets a chance even if they're poor is to ignore the fact that so many end up repeating the cycle of poverty. I think the poor should be given the most opportunity to get out of the cycle of poverty. Part of getting out of the cycle of poverty is access to reproductive healthcare, being able to choose what path your life is going to take; education, which can often be denied if you've got little ones to care for first; earning capacities, which can be permanently reduced because of the bias against working mothers in the workplace.

Why the hell shouldn't a woman think about all of those things first before deciding to bring a child into this world?

Personally, I get pissed off when I see the teenagers outside my window that have 2 or 3 children. They aren't working. They live off government benefits and have little incentive to get off of them (it's cheaper for them to stay on them than it is for them to get a job, so the cycle of poverty continues, and their children don't get a good example of a parent working hard to earn a living).

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Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I simply do not believe that a choice to have sex makes it ok to use abortion as a form of birth control.

Not a single person on this board would disagree with that. Abortion isn't birth control.

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Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I also believe that I have a right to my opinion based on the fact that Ive BEEN in those situations. I continuly have been hearing "you have tunnel-vision.." "you're not thinking about people who have been in situations where they've needed to abort"... however if I had aborted my child simply because he was an unwanted pregnancy I highly doubt anyone would say I hadn't "been" in that posistion. The only difference between me and the people who chose to abort is that i chose not to. I HAVE been in that posistion.. so i dont think it's fair to hear "you dont knwo what its like" because i know exactly what it's like.

You know exactly what it's like to be you, in your situation, to make the decision you made based on the unique set of circumstances you had. You don't know what it's like to be anyone else, in their situation, no matter how many similarities their situation may bear with yours.

And if you continue to argue "you aren't judging", you can't also say, "but I know exactly what it's like". You're making a judgement right there - that you know what it's like and you know what you did, therefore the logical conclusion should be that they keep their kid.

I don't believe you don't judge. I have yet to see any evidence that you don't judge those that chose an abortion.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 What im getting mad about is the poster telling me that while my son was inside my body while I was pregnant that he was never a human.. I dont understand how that's logical or even a point that can be made. Of course he was human.. he had fingerprints, he had all the body parts of a human, his heart beat, and he had the same chromosome count that makes a human a human ( which, btw... while many animals share the same number of chromosomes.. humans are the ONLY species who only have 46 chromosomes )...

Well, to give one half-assed example ripped off of Wikipedia,

In Canadian law, under section 223 of the Criminal Code of Canada, a fetus is a "human being ... when it has completely proceeded, in a living state, from the body of its mother whether or not it has completely breathed, it has an independent circulation or the navel string is severed."

In a nutshell, my point of view.

(ps - I'm off to bed now, it's nearly midnight in the UK, and as I said before, I'm exhausted. If you continue to post, I may reply tomorrow.)

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Explain to me how if a man kills a woman who is pregnant it is considered a "double homicide"... is the life only sacred if the woman who is carrying it wants it?

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Originally Posted by concertina Because the Anti-Choice lobby got one over on us with Bush in office, thats why. Perhaps what I should have said was: when he's no longer depending on your body for support, he's a human being, which is closer to the core of what I meant.

Whether or not a person can be convicted for feticide depends on the state. My state currently doesn't have a feticide statute on the books. Feticide statutes are also determined by the viablility of a fetus. A pregnant woman is murdered when she's only 4 months along - the likelihood of the murderer being prosecuted for feticide also is very low. Because at 4 months, the fetus is still highly dependent on the mother. Now a pregnant woman who is 8 months along, now you're talking. A fetus is quite capable of surviving on its own outside the womb.

There's a reason abortion laws are linked to viablility. It's because at that point there is substantial majority of medical experts that agree it's when a fetus could survive without the protection of the womb. Before then, a fetus really is just a parasite in its mother's body.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Its okay- im refusing to post any more on this board.. I guess what im trying to do is get people that I dont even know to understand and show compassion and humanity towards a person. Obviously that's not going to happen here.

you're right- Im beating a dead horse.. I have my son, he's safe, and I chose not to kill him.

If you want to continue to bash me and make me feel horrible about my stance on life, then have at it. Im not the one who has to face the Lord for my decision after I die on if I killed me child or not.

I too, am going to bed- my son is waking up from his nap and I need to feed him, bathe him, and then get some sleep.. argueing with people about something that is beyond this world.. beyond what any of us on a FORUM board can possibly comprehend in the long scheme of things is a waste of time. period. I think im going to stick to make-up chat from now on.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Its okay- im refusing to post any more on this board.. I guess what im trying to do is get people that I dont even know to understand and show compassion and humanity towards a person. Obviously that's not going to happen here.

The sad thing is that more compassion is shown from people with a hard line pro CHOICE stance than people with a hard line pro LIFE stance.
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you're right- Im beating a dead horse.. I have my son, he's safe, and I chose not to kill him.

Your position is that you didn't kill someone. Other people feel that to a point, it's not 'killing' anything.
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If you want to continue to bash me and make me feel horrible about my stance on life, then have at it. Im not the one who has to face the Lord for my decision after I die on if I killed me child or not.

You're not being bashed, I'm sorry you feel that you are. The thing about a board of women like the group that's on Specktra is that it's generally speaking a group of very opinionated and intelligent women. Very few will take a position without being prepared to back that position up. I, personally, find that an admirable trait in anyone.
If one doesn't believe in God, one's not worried about God's judgment, I would think.
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I too, am going to bed- my son is waking up from his nap and I need to feed him, bathe him, and then get some sleep.. argueing with people about something that is beyond this world.. beyond what any of us on a FORUM board can possibly comprehend in the long scheme of things is a waste of time. period. I think im going to stick to make-up chat from now on.

That's understandable.

Part of the intent behind a debate is that points and counterpoints are discussed and considered. I'm sorry that's not been the ultimate experience for you on this subject.

 

[concertina]

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Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 concertina- just because we have completely different viewpoints does not make it right for you to be mean to me. The only thing that annoys me is that I havent seen one backing of scientifical proof from you on anything you say. It's been me proving left and right that my son was a human being even while I was pregnant with him- but I honestly dont believe that your argument that while I was pregnant my son was not "alive" or a "human" can never be proven.... Im not trying to start a fight here with anyone.. I never was.. but I also think that this is all turning into a huge argument and there are a lot of people ganging up on me just because im backing my stances up with "definitions".... Im sorry if my using evidence to support my opinions doesnt sit well with you...

Um, where was I mean to you again? I seem to recall you calling my statements the "dumbest you've ever heard"....can't find evidence of me being mean to you...

And do I *really* need to educate you on something you *obviously* have no intention/desire/care to ever understand or consider? Thats not even worth my time to consider.

Also, please show me where I said he wasn't alive while in utero.

I don't think your argument about being when personhood begins can be proven *either*. Again, for every quote you post from a doctor stating that personhood begins at conception, there are more out there stating just the opposite.

No one is ganging up on you. What *is* happening is that people (much smarter than myself) are posting incredibly poignant, insightful and relevant counter-arguments and you're not sure how to respond anymore when you're called out for your incredibly judgment attitude and purely emotional outbursts.

Now...I'm going to wait for you to tell me that you're going to ignore me again. Because I'm imagining this post is "mean" as well.

 

[pumpkincat210]

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Originally Posted by xoxprincessx0x I don't mean to pry but I'm just curious why you ladies with husbands would get abortions? Do you already have kids and don't want anymore, or do you just not want kids at all? My mother was one that never wanted kids and had an abortion during her marriage to her first husband. When she married my father she became pregnant with my brother and my dad begged and pleaded with her to keep it. She was hoping it was at least a little girl but she had a boy who of course she loves equally but said now she wants a girl and that's how I was born!! lol It's so funny how those kind of things work out.

The mental and physical toll it takes on your body.

 

[athena123]

It's always interesting to me how many professed pro-life people also support the death penalty. I'm not saying anyone here in this thread has stated this because I haven't read all the posts; it's just that many who are completely opposed to abortion for any reason tend to be religious fundamentalists who also favor the death penalty.

To be fair, I'll also point out the reverse as well. I completely support a woman's right to choose without any restrictions during the first trimester, but I don't think tax dollars should be used to fund this. I'm OK with placing a few limits on the right to abort in the second trimester and to save the life of a mother during the last. I'm completely opposed to the death penalty.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

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Originally Posted by athena123 It's always interesting to me how many professed pro-life people also support the death penalty. I'm not saying anyone here in this thread has stated this because I haven't read all the posts; it's just that many who are completely opposed to abortion for any reason tend to be religious fundamentalists who also favor the death penalty. To be fair, I'll also point out the reverse as well. I completely support a woman's right to choose without any restrictions during the first trimester, but I don't think tax dollars should be used to fund this. I'm OK with placing a few limits on the right to abort in the second trimester and to save the life of a mother during the last. I'm completely opposed to the death penalty.

So true, I agree-- I think if you claim to be "pro life" then you should be 100% pro-life, not just when it's convienent.. you know what I mean? Im completely against the death penalty as well.. euthenasia.. anything that has to do with intervention by human hand where God should be the only one interviening.

 

[Odette]

This is one of the most agonizing decisions any woman has to make no matter what that decision is. I totally agree with Blindpassion that the only option should be choice.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athena123 It's always interesting to me how many professed pro-life people also support the death penalty. I'm not saying anyone here in this thread has stated this because I haven't read all the posts; it's just that many who are completely opposed to abortion for any reason tend to be religious fundamentalists who also favor the death penalty.

I used to fight with my brother about that a lot. He is very pro-life but only in recent years has decided that he cannot be pro-capital punishment as well. It's on the basis of his Christian religious beliefs, though many Christians point out there are plenty of passages in the Bible advocating capital punishment.

That's what you get for relying on a Bronze Age text. (sorrysorry, heh...)