Prolife Or Prochoice

[ratmist]

Something I saw in the news today:

Romanian girl in UK for abortion
(From BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Romanian girl in UK for abortion)

An 11-year-old Romanian girl is to have an abortion in the UK despite being cleared to have one in Romania.
The girl is 22 weeks pregnant after being raped by an uncle, who has since gone missing.

Abortion is illegal in Romania after 14 weeks, but a government panel last week decided she could have a termination because of exceptional circumstances.

The British charity Marie Stopes said it had arranged for the girl to have an abortion at an unnamed London hospital.

The organisation said it was approached by representatives of the girl after her arrival in Britain several days ago.

"With the girl's well-being a paramount concern, and immediate access to the service a priority, Marie Stopes International was able to make alternative arrangements for her," it said.

"She will now be treated in a public hospital under a private arrangement funded by Marie Stopes International."

'Decision for family'
Some 20 Christian Orthodox groups in Romania had threatened to press charges if the girl was allowed to abort the baby there.

But a government committee decided the operation could take place because the girl was a victim of sexual abuse and faced "major risks to her mental health" if the pregnancy continued.

While some pro-life Christian Orthodox groups had urged the family to keep the child, and offered to raise it in a church institution, the Romanian Orthodox Church said any decision on abortion should be left to the family.

Marie Stopes said it was encouraged that the Romanian government was "preparing new legislation to extend the Romanian limit on abortion upwards from its existing 14-week maximum in certain circumstances".

​

She is 11 and articles say the uncle is 19 years old.

So does anyone think she shouldn't be allowed to abort?

 

[concertina]

She is *11*. ELEVEN!!

She should absolutely be 'allowed' to abort.

SHE IS ELEVEN!!!

I get *SO SICK* of religious fundies latching on to individual cases of tragedy to further their own agendas and don't allow the people affected to make the decision for their own damn selves!!

It pisses me off and breaks my heart that this was even an issue for this girl and that on top of that, her own *GOVERNMENT* wouldn't make an exception for her in the beginning of all this mess. They *FINALLY* have come to their senses....its tragic...just tragic.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina She is *11*. ELEVEN!! She should absolutely be 'allowed' to abort. SHE IS ELEVEN!!! I get *SO SICK* of religious fundies latching on to individual cases of tragedy to further their own agendas and don't allow the people affected to make the decision for their own damn selves!! It pisses me off and breaks my heart that this was even an issue for this girl and that on top of that, her own *GOVERNMENT* wouldn't make an exception for her in the beginning of all this mess. They *FINALLY* have come to their senses....its tragic...just tragic.

Their counter-argument was that an abortion, with its long-term mental effects as well as the possible physical effects, might do more harm to her than giving up the child for adoption.

I think it's six of one, half a dozen of another.

A statement she wrote to the court simply read, "I want to go to school and to play. If I can't do this, my life will be a nightmare."

I'm not sure she's capable of thinking about the long-term effects yet. :/

 

[purrtykitty]

I love that the church is staying out of this and allowing the family to make its own decision. I still don't get how people can assume that it's no big deal to have a baby and not take into account any of the psychological ramifications of requiring a rape victim continue with a pregnancy and give birth, let alone this 11 y.o. She definitely does not fully understand what is happening to her.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 So true, I agree-- I think if you claim to be "pro life" then you should be 100% pro-life, not just when it's convienent.. you know what I mean? Im completely against the death penalty as well.. euthenasia.. anything that has to do with intervention by human hand where God should be the only one interviening.

Adlers, you and I are coming at this from completely different perspectives, but that's because I don't believe in any kind of intervention by any kind of diety. And yes, I actually think those who are terminally ill, where no hope exists, should have the right to end their lives with dignity. It's not a matter of "convenience", as you put it. It's a matter of freedom to rule your own body.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist I used to fight with my brother about that a lot. He is very pro-life but only in recent years has decided that he cannot be pro-capital punishment as well. It's on the basis of his Christian religious beliefs, though many Christians point out there are plenty of passages in the Bible advocating capital punishment. That's what you get for relying on a Bronze Age text. (sorrysorry, heh...)

Too true ratmist!

If we could look for the myths and legends within the holy books instead of science and universal edicts meant to rule over us for thousands of years, it would be a sign of progress.

 

[CantAffordMAC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 If you want to continue to bash me and make me feel horrible about my stance on life, then have at it. Im not the one who has to face the Lord for my decision after I die on if I killed me child or not.

I think that is an awful thing to say, especially since there are women here who have had abortions, and who believe in God.
I'm not trying to attack you. Just stating my opinion.

I may stay away from this thread as well, it is stirring up all kinds of old feelings and its not feeling too good.

 

[blindpassion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 If you want to continue to bash me and make me feel horrible about my stance on life, then have at it. Im not the one who has to face the Lord for my decision after I die on if I killed me child or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CantAffordMAC I think that is an awful thing to say, especially since there are women here who have had abortions, and who believe in God. I'm not trying to attack you. Just stating my opinion. I may stay away from this thread as well, it is stirring up all kinds of old feelings and its not feeling too good.

I've said time and time again in this thread, there are strong, brave, beautiful, amazing, caring, real, talented women in this thread and they have feelings!!! they have feelings and emotions and it puts a knot in my stomach to know that their feelings arent even being considered before people are pressing "post". It's pretty obvious that you (am) have some very strong stances on this issue but you're not the only one with emotions in this thread. There are women here who are strong and amazing and they have faced adversity and survived hard times, and some of them have been through abortions, and I would love to hug every single one of them and tell them how god damn brave I think they are for doing what they have done and being the amazing people they are. Im not looking for a fight but these women might as well be my sisters and they have feelings too, so before you throw around the words murder and children killer, consider their feelings as well, even though they are sinners in your eyes, they are beautiful women in my eyes.

And to add one more thing, there isnt one women in this thread who took having an abortion lightly! none of them strolled to the clinic thinking "oh wow what a nice day for an abortion". Not a single one of them thought it was a fun thing to go through, I'll tell you that much. So consider their emotions and consider that it probably really hurt them to go through what they went through, and being told they are murderers and children killers probably stirs up a lot of painful emotions.

 

[mona lisa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hilly According to what they said, it's basically the calendar method follwoing your monthly cycle of ovulation. They said it was 100% accurate. I love how it totally doesnt take in account that women's bods aren't the most calendar friendly and run on lil things called hormones that go outta whack for any kind of reason (stress, sick, etc). I believe in Quality of life, not quantity of how many kids I can pop out.

Look into what is called the "Billings Method" Hilly. Here is a link for you:

The Billings Method

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 nything that has to do with intervention by human hand where God should be the only one interviening.

If one doesn't believe in God, this isn't applicable.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CantAffordMAC I think that is an awful thing to say, especially since there are women here who have had abortions, and who believe in God. I'm not trying to attack you. Just stating my opinion. I may stay away from this thread as well, it is stirring up all kinds of old feelings and its not feeling too good.

*hugs* Like I said before... if God exists, the capacity for love, forgiveness and understanding must be more than we could ever give ourselves, let alone each other. Don't let someone else's interpretation of God make you feel battered.

 

[user79]

I just don't like intolerance. Intolerance to people's own choices. Make the choice that's right for you, and let others make the choices that are right for them. No need to get on a high horse and show that your own personal choice is morally "better" than another.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

This entire thread is a joke. the only people here who are "right" are those who are against what I (and others) believe.. you preach to me about thinking about other people's feeligns when you're neglecting the feelings of the children who are being murdered violently...

I have not had ONE person on this board send me a message or anything stateing that what i was saying was hurting them or stirring up old feelings. I cant state many more times that I do not think badly of women who have abortions.. IVE BEEN THERE... when i got pregnant that thought DID cross my mind for a split second... esp with it being shoved down my through by my son's father and mother.. it did seem easier in some aspects than going through with the pregnancy.. but the cons highly outweighed the pros in my book.

all im saying is that ive BEEN THERE.. im not some random girl who's never even been faced with the decision to have an abortion standing on my "high horse" preaching... I know what its like to be scared, alone, and not have an idea in the world of what I was going to do the next few minutes of my life let alone the next 18 (+) years of someone else's that I was now ultimatley responsible.

Ive made hard decisions too... everyone makes hard decisions.. and im sure there are MANY of yuo who dont agree with my decision to keep my child, unwed, at the age of 21, on financial assistance from the state.

The problem here is that there was an opinion asked, but since the amount of pro-choicers highly outweighs the amount of pro-lifers on this board, my opinion is automatically "wrong"

You can all keep talking about how "insenstative" I am.. that's fine. I dont mind at all if you call me every name in the book and find me extreamly insensative.. because Im not going to STOP fighting for the lives of poor unborn children who are being murdered for reasons that for some reason- have become acceptable to our human race.

I think it's "insensative" of many people who kill unborn children. Period. Talking bad about me and saying im wrong and blah blah blah isn't going to change my viewpoint on this...it's not.

 

[Jacq-i]

In college I saw quite a few party girls get multiple abortions, and it made me sad. I think using abortions as a birth control is a horrible misuse of resources.

I don't think that abortions should be completely banned, but I'd like different rules for them.

I just think it's ridiculous that the public school system will call the parents to inform them that their teenager did not attend school, but yet you do not need an over 18 signature to get an abortion, and the parents are not notified.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 This entire thread is a joke. the only people here who are "right" are those who are against what I (and others) believe.. you preach to me about thinking about other people's feeligns when you're neglecting the feelings of the children who are being murdered violently...

It's kind of gross, but not really 'violent'. You should look into the actual medical procedure vs the propaganda the no-choice advocates flout.
Quote:

I have not had ONE person on this board send me a message or anything stateing that what i was saying was hurting them or stirring up old feelings. I cant state many more times that I do not think badly of women who have abortions.. IVE BEEN THERE... when i got pregnant that thought DID cross my mind for a split second... esp with it being shoved down my through by my son's father and mother.. it did seem easier in some aspects than going through with the pregnancy.. but the cons highly outweighed the pros in my book.

Your book.
Yours. Not mine or anyone else's. Yours. Your life doesn't apply to me or mine. Your decisions don't correlate to me or mine. Your life path is not and never will be the same as mine. You can't speak for what is right for ANYONE ELSE but you.
Quote:

all im saying is that ive BEEN THERE.. im not some random girl who's never even been faced with the decision to have an abortion standing on my "high horse" preaching... I know what its like to be scared, alone, and not have an idea in the world of what I was going to do the next few minutes of my life let alone the next 18 (+) years of someone else's that I was now ultimatley responsible. Ive made hard decisions too... everyone makes hard decisions.. and im sure there are MANY of yuo who dont agree with my decision to keep my child, unwed, at the age of 21, on financial assistance from the state. The problem here is that there was an opinion asked, but since the amount of pro-choicers highly outweighs the amount of pro-lifers on this board, my opinion is automatically "wrong" You can all keep talking about how "insenstative" I am.. that's fine. I dont mind at all if you call me every name in the book and find me extreamly insensative.. because Im not going to STOP fighting for the lives of poor unborn children who are being murdered for reasons that for some reason- have become acceptable to our human race. I think it's "insensative" of many people who kill unborn children. Period. Talking bad about me and saying im wrong and blah blah blah isn't going to change my viewpoint on this...it's not.

That, folks, is called a closed minded argument ender.

 

[CantAffordMAC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 This entire thread is a joke. the only people here who are "right" are those who are against what I (and others) believe.. you preach to me about thinking about other people's feeligns when you're neglecting the feelings of the children who are being murdered violently... I have not had ONE person on this board send me a message or anything stateing that what i was saying was hurting them or stirring up old feelings. I cant state many more times that I do not think badly of women who have abortions.. IVE BEEN THERE... when i got pregnant that thought DID cross my mind for a split second... esp with it being shoved down my through by my son's father and mother.. it did seem easier in some aspects than going through with the pregnancy.. but the cons highly outweighed the pros in my book.

I did not send u a message, because I didnt feel it was necessary. This thread is the place that we are discussing the topic. Like i said before, I was not trying to attack you. i can understand why you'd feel that way. But I was simply stating why I felt the way i did. How would you feel if you made a different choice, and decided to go through with the abortion, and someone said something so hurtful to you? I'm free to express my opinions as well.

And it wasn't only you who hurt feelings on this thread. But like i said, I'm not going to argue or carry this over to other threads, because this is simply ur opinion. I'll just stay away from a thread that is so personal to me...

 

[rbella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 This entire thread is a joke. the only people here who are "right" are those who are against what I (and others) believe.. you preach to me about thinking about other people's feeligns when you're neglecting the feelings of the children who are being murdered violently...

I hate to say this, but would you feel that this thread was a joke if everyone on here was either changing their view to yours or agreeing with you? This kind of sounds like you are throwing a tantrum because you aren't getting your way....

I understand you feel passionately about this, but keep in mind, others feel passionately about their views as well. Just because it disgusts you or doesn't fit into your set of beliefs doesn't mean they are wrong. They just think differently than you. Believe it or not, some feel you are vehemently wrong in this argument.

I think that if you truly want to stay away from this thread, like you have said you would, then stay away. The stress it is obviously causing you isn't worth it...

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 This entire thread is a joke. the only people here who are "right" are those who are against what I (and others) believe.. you preach to me about thinking about other people's feeligns when you're neglecting the feelings of the children who are being murdered violently...

I've had some very terse conversations with main two openly pro-lifers on this board, (rbella and SkylarV217).

The difference between their replies and yours is that they are still open to hearing the arguments from the pro-choice people on this board. They are as adamant in their beliefs as I am in mine, but they have, for the most part, been very careful not to use their beliefs as a battering ram against others. They seem genuinely interested to know where and why people are pro-choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I have not had ONE person on this board send me a message or anything stateing that what i was saying was hurting them or stirring up old feelings.

Why should they have to? Why can't you exercise some caution and discretion before you reach for your Biblical reasons and bash us with promises of God's retribution? Because you know, as a (lapsed) Catholic, I find your brand of Christianity vulgar, distasteful, and ignorant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Ive made hard decisions too... everyone makes hard decisions.. and im sure there are MANY of yuo who dont agree with my decision to keep my child, unwed, at the age of 21, on financial assistance from the state.

I think everyone - including me - have been very supportive about your relationship with your son and your decision to keep him. Not one of us has implied or stated that you should've aborted. I'm sick to death of your martyr's attitude towards your son. I'm sick of you acting like us pro-choicers would rather that you had an abortion. I'm tired of you reading what you want to read in our statements rather than what we've been actually saying.

It's sloppy, it's not clever, it's incredibly hurtful and most of all, it's damned unfair.

As for the government aid issue, all I did was question whether or not it's fair for a woman in your state to decide to abort on the basis of financial disadvantage. You say it's unfair to criticize the fact that you take advantage of tax-based government help just because those taxes are voluntary. What you failed to understand is that I didn't judge you for taking those advantages - I even said that we need more programs like that so that women can seriously consider keeping the pregnancy rather than opting for abortion. All I said was that it's fair for someone to say they don't want to take government finances - even if they are voluntarily arranged - to raise their children, and therefore opt to have an abortion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 The problem here is that there was an opinion asked, but since the amount of pro-choicers highly outweighs the amount of pro-lifers on this board, my opinion is automatically "wrong"

Bullshit. I absolutely reject that second martyr's notion you seem to like so much. Just because you're outnumbered doesn't mean we've treated you as automatically in the wrong. You haven't conducted yourself very well in this forum though, so you haven't received much support. You haven't even received much support for your statements from the openly pro-life people on this board - and that's what really cracks me up.

Maybe you're used to going to pro-life boards where everything you say is lauded as correct and fine and wonderful. Welcome to the rest of the internet!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 You can all keep talking about how "insenstative" I am.. that's fine. I dont mind at all if you call me every name in the book and find me extreamly insensative.. because Im not going to STOP fighting for the lives of poor unborn children who are being murdered for reasons that for some reason- have become acceptable to our human race. I think it's "insensative" of many people who kill unborn children. Period. Talking bad about me and saying im wrong and blah blah blah isn't going to change my viewpoint on this...it's not.

No one's talked bad about you, but I have been quite stern with you, that's true.

But everything I've said, I'd say it to your face.

Would you go to Can'tAffordMAC and say to her face that she will face God and burn in hell for having an abortion?

Or Shimmer?

Or any of the other brave women who came out to talk about this subject?

In my book, you'd be facing God for your lack of compassion, your lack of sincerity, your lack of love for your fellow human being standing right in front of you.

But I guess it's easier to love the unborn, the idea of innocence, than to look at your fellow human beings in the same way on an anonymous message board.

 

[concertina]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What she said!
<total girl crush>
If you weren't 8 months pregnant and happily in a relationship, I would totally kidnap you and run away to Figi...

When I grow up, I want to be able to be as clear, concise and utterly *awesome* as you are...

</total girl crush>

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 ....... I cant state many more times that I do not think badly of women who have abortions..

REALLY? You claim that you don't think badly of women who've chosen to abort in one breath, then claim it's murder in the next. Quite the dichotomy, don't you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 all im saying is that ive BEEN THERE.. im not some random girl who's never even been faced with the decision to have an abortion standing on my "high horse" preaching... I know what its like to be scared, alone, and not have an idea in the world of what I was going to do the next few minutes of my life let alone the next 18 (+) years of someone else's that I was now ultimatley responsible.

I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I think it needs to be said. I believe in personal and economic responsibility. You also claim a great deal of personal responsibility and I applaud you for that. But how much personal responsibility do you really have when you rely upon tax payer funds to raise your child?

NO ONE can dictate what is right for another. NO ONE. You opted to keep a baby and take financial aid from the government to raise your child. That's YOUR decision to make and you sure don't see me standing around trying to prevent you from making this. In an earlier post, I supported the woman's right to abort but not at taxpayer expense. I'm pretty equal opportunity in that I also support your right to keep and bear your child but I oppose the concept that as a taxpayer, I am paying for your choice. How right do you think it is to raise a child you can't afford? Do you want to start the cycle of dependency, welfare checks and poverty? Will that be your legacy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 You can all keep talking about how "insenstative" I am.. that's fine. I dont mind at all if you call me every name in the book and find me extreamly insensative.. because Im not going to STOP fighting for the lives of poor unborn children who are being murdered for reasons that for some reason- have become acceptable to our human race. I think it's "insensative" of many people who kill unborn children. Period. Talking bad about me and saying im wrong and blah blah blah isn't going to change my viewpoint on this...it's not.

I don't expect to change anyone's POV, but I won't condone this kind of insensitive rhetoric by my silence.

Why don't you take a look at your words and see if you can't understand how EXTREMELY insensitive you are being toward women who've faced this choice? It's not one that's taken lightly by most of us.

Just remember that when you and those who think like you stand around in a picket line with horrible signs and pictures protesting the presence of a Planned Parenthood or other family planning clinic to "protect" the "rights" of the unborn, then you stand AGAINST a woman's right to rule over her own body. Don't you think a woman should have the right to decide what to do with her own body? Or are we to continue to allow ourselves to be patronized, sheltered and relegated to the status of second class citizens and children as we have been for centuries? And yes, CHOICE means just that. The choice to continue with a pregnancy or to end it.

If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one but don't presume to impose YOUR choice on everyone else.

disclaimer: I really don't have anything personal against YOU, but I am completely and utterly opposed to your position and those who agree with you.