Prolife Or Prochoice

[M.A.C. head.]

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Originally Posted by MissChievous That is essentially a pro-choice stand. Choice just means the ability to choose yes or no, so if you say abortion is not right for you, but another woman may do as she wishes, that is pro-choice. Pro-choice is not saying, oh yey, abortions are great and everyone should have one, it just means that the state should not hinder women the decision to have an abortion if she wants to have one. But if you say, for you personally abortions aren't something you would do, but another woman who wishes to have one can do so because you don't feel it is any of your business, that means you are pro-choice. Pro-life means you are making it your business to make the decision for other women. Pro-life means the state must set laws that makes abortions illegal, so not giving the women a choice. I think a lot of people confuse pro-choice with pro-abortion, it couldn't be further from that. Pro-choice is not stating your own choice if you would have one or not, it is expressing the freedom and the right for every woman to decide for herself. This poll is not asking if you could imagine having an abortion or not yourself, it is asking, should women have the right to choose for themselves, or should the state make laws to prevent them from having abortions? Sorry, I just wanted to be clear on that because I think people are mixing things up here.

I didn't mix up anything. I know the difference between prolife and prochoice very well.

I believe that abortion is murder and so I'm against it, for myself and others. Me saying that I don't want to know about what other people are doing doesn't mean that I'm prochoice, it means I have my own life to worry about.

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 It's not about what you can or can't do with your body , it's about the body residing in your body.A body part is defined by the common genetic code...

True, but again, it comes to down to a person's perspective. Some see it as the precious stages of early life, where some see it as a microscopic lump of cells.

Pro choice allows you and I to make our own decisions without other's dumping their perspective on us.

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 .....IE Scott Peterson was charged with 2 murders. His wife's and His Child's where as if Stacy Peterson had had an abortion she wouln't have been charged with murder...

The difference would be intent, IMO. Lacy Peterson had obviously intended to deliver, as she was very far along. Scott killed her and precluded her intent.

As far as other murder cases where the pregnancy was in earlier stages, I think the law punishes the murderer for taking the mother's choice away from her (whether to have a baby or not). The murderer chose the fate of the pregnancy, not the mother.

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 .....While we were all fetus' once we aren't PART of our mother's body! We grew there. That's why the argument about a women should be able to do what she wants with her body erks me. That baby is a seperate intaty within her body. It's not like she is choosing to go cut her arm off.... That I would be okay with b/c that arm is part of her body !....

Again, it's just a matter of a women's perspective. The feelings and beliefs that a woman has accumulated and earned throughout her lifetime.

Some agree with you, some don't, that is why we all get to choose.

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 .........Even if ladies aren't religious most of them believe in destiny. If you believe in that or even the theory that there is someone out there for everyone, who are you to "discard" someones solemate....

We live in a secular country. We have a seperation of church and state. Our laws are not based on religion. They may have been very much influenced by religion at their inception, but our legal system has grown and progressed to a system that is more fair, balanced and representative of the masses.

Prochoice allows you the right to do what you want with your body, according to your beliefs, whether they be religious or not.

The law (fortunately) does not take quixotic notions like "soul mates" into consideration. If the law were that fanciful, I can't imagine how cumbersome it would be.

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 .....I'm a strong believer that is there hadn't been so many aborted human lives we would have cures for Cancer and Aids by now. What would the world be like if Alexander Fleming's mother "hadn't been ready to have a child" .... Then only 1/4 of us would made it to adulthood, if that many. If you've ever taken penicilan you would probably be dead now, simply b/c of that one woman who wasn't ready, or didn't have a husband, or the money. Denying a child life , b/c you were irresponsible is WRONG! Plain and Simple. That is why I am PROLIFE. So many women are filipantly having abortions and that is wrong. If there wasn't an easy way to end a pregnacy , I feel people would begin to be more careful with there sex lives.

We may not have had penecillin. We may not have had it until 2 years later, maybe 30 years later. The population would have been affected, but that is the ebb and flow of life. Just a couple of weeks ago, there were horrible earthquakes in China. What if one of the victims was about to invent the cure for cancer? These things happen and life just works itself out around it.

We can sit here and "what if" about women who chose to have an abortion till we turn blue. Conversely, we can sit here and "what if" about women who were ill-equipped to have a child, but chose to do so and the resulting consequences: A child in distress? A mother and/or father in distress? A drain on society's resources? I fully realize this isn't always the case, but it is in many instances and should be considered.

I think that most, if not all of us, agree that using abortion as birth control is irresponsible and wrong. Period.

We need to also dispell the myth that all abortions are irresponsible. If a woman has the good sense to know what is right for her, based on her life's experience and situation, then she is making a responsible decision, IMO.

Pro Choice allows everyone the ability to choose what to do with their own bodies. I would never presume to burden anyone else with my religious beliefs or reproductive beliefs. Who am I to do that? Every woman in this country is fortunate enough to have the right to chose according to her own beliefs. Not her neighbor's beliefs, not her governments beliefs, but her own belief.

I just want to add that I am pleased that we can discuss/debate this heated topic without descending into snarkiness. Thanks, ladies and gents.

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore I just want to add that I am pleased that we can discuss/debate this heated topic without descending into snarkiness. Thanks, ladies and gents.

Me, too! I love the way this thread is going. Although I don't agree with everything that is posted, I feel that everyone is getting a chance to say their peace and no one is being attacked for an opinion. This is just awesome, especially with such a heated topic!

 

[user79]

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 Even if ladies aren't religious most of them believe in destiny. If you believe in that or even the theory that there is someone out there for everyone, who are you to "discard" someones solemate. I'm a strong believer that is there hadn't been so many aborted human lives we would have cures for Cancer and Aids by now. What would the world be like if Alexander Fleming's mother "hadn't been ready to have a child" .... Then only 1/4 of us would made it to adulthood, if that many. If you've ever taken penicilan you would probably be dead now, simply b/c of that one woman who wasn't ready, or didn't have a husband, or the money.

I don't agree that most people believe in fate and destiny, and I think you are assuming this. How do you know that most people believe in fate? I think those arguments personally would have no bearing on my own decision because I don't think life is pre-destined whatsoever. I don't think people are born with a path or destiny in life, and I am guessing that this viewpoint is shared by many others.

But getting back to your point-

The difference is that the fetus cannot live outside the woman's body before a certain point of time, and doesn't have the biological characteristics of a human before then, the fetus is a part of the woman's body. Some people don't consider the zygote a human person. I know I definitely don't, I consider it a cell, which over time will eventually develop into a fetus. Being a human person isn't just "existing" somewhere, but it also encompasses rational thought, reasoning, communication, autonomy and self-awareness. A fetus is not capable of these functions besides consciousness, so many people do not consider it a human person.


And I agree with MAC_Whore, the thing that appeals to me with pro choice is that gives people a choice, no matter what their ethical, religious, or otherwise beliefs may be. I am all for freedom and the pursuit of one's own will, I don't like the idea of the government telling people what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. That's why I also do not have a problem with self-elected assisted suicides for terminally ill people. We should be able to choose.

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore The difference would be intent, IMO. Lacy Peterson had obviously intended to deliver, as she was very far along. Scott killed her and precluded her intent. As far as other murder cases where the pregnancy was in earlier stages, I think the law punishes the murderer for taking the mother's choice away from her (whether to have a baby or not). The murderer chose the fate of the pregnancy, not the mother.

Intent on the part of the murderer is crucial, but with feticide statutes, most states also require that the fetus be at a viable stage, IIRC. Lacy Peterson was around 8 months pregnant (maybe even further), therefore, at that stage, she very well could've delivered a perfectly healthy child. A person who murders a pregnant woman who is around 4 months and the fetus subsequently dies probably isn't going to be charged with feticide because at the time of the murder, the fetus wasn't viable. Some states may be moving toward charging persons with feticide for murders in the early stages of pregnancy, but I think for most states it comes down to the human element...a fetus just short of delivery is a "human" (i.e. it could survive on its own) for the purposes of the law, while a fetus that is in its first or second trimester can't survive on its own. I know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but most of the time the law doesn't...and keep in mind not every state even has a feticide statute (Nebraska doesn't, yet).

And as for taking away the mother's "choice" - I just don't see a criminal element there. That sounds more like an argument for a civil case against the murderer.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by purrtykitty Intent on the part of the murderer is crucial, but with feticide statutes, most states also require that the fetus be at a viable stage, IIRC. Lacy Peterson was around 8 months pregnant (maybe even further), therefore, at that stage, she very well could've delivered a perfectly healthy child. A person who murders a pregnant woman who is around 4 months and the fetus subsequently dies probably isn't going to be charged with feticide because at the time of the murder, the fetus wasn't viable. Some states may be moving toward charging persons with feticide for murders in the early stages of pregnancy, but I think for most states it comes down to the human element...a fetus just short of delivery is a "human" (i.e. it could survive on its own) for the purposes of the law, while a fetus that is in its first or second trimester can't survive on its own. I know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but most of the time the law doesn't...and keep in mind not every state even has a feticide statute (Nebraska doesn't, yet). And as for taking away the mother's "choice" - I just don't see a criminal element there. That sounds more like an argument for a civil case against the murderer.

There is some interesting literature out there about the ever changing face of feticide statutes and laws because of the evoliving abilities to help micro-preemies survive. I find that particular topic fascinating.

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* There is some interesting literature out there about the ever changing face of feticide statutes and laws because of the evoliving abilities to help micro-preemies survive. I find that particular topic fascinating.

Yeah, I think that's why states that have feticide statutes are looking to revise them. With all the medical advances, the stage of viability keeps getting moved earlier. Personally, I think this is good because I don't think a murderer should escape punishment simply because he/she happened to choose a pregnant woman who wasn't "far enough along" in the eyes of the law.

 

[frocher]

......

 

[Karen_B]

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 I'm a strong believer that is there hadn't been so many aborted human lives we would have cures for Cancer and Aids by now. What would the world be like if Alexander Fleming's mother "hadn't been ready to have a child" .... Then only 1/4 of us would made it to adulthood, if that many. If you've ever taken penicilan you would probably be dead now, simply b/c of that one woman who wasn't ready, or didn't have a husband, or the money.

On the flipside, if Hitler's mother had aborted him, 6 million Jews wouldn't have died in the Holocaust... I think this is a pointless way of arguing.

 

[carrieann07]

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Originally Posted by Karen_B On the flipside, if Hitler's mother had aborted him, 6 million Jews wouldn't have died in the Holocaust... I think this is a pointless way of arguing.

You can't live life w/ "what if's"

If I felt that way, then if the drunk driver that killed my best friend had been aborted, he'd still be here.

It makes no sense to argue that point, IMO

 

[S.S.BlackOrchid]

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Originally Posted by melliquor I think that it is a selfish person that would have an abortion to save money or not go through the headache or an uncomfortable life. There are so many people looking to adopt a child, including me, and there isn't enough children out there. My opinion, is that you should only have an abortion if you are raped... there is no other reason to do it besides that.

It's better than having the child and then being mad at the child for the rest of his/her life. I'd rather see a child not be born than be born into a family that isn't ready.

 

[S.S.BlackOrchid]

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Originally Posted by rbella I think that having a child is a privilege and not a punishment.

Well said!

 

[ZoeKat]

I also want to add that a woman who becomes pregnant and contemplates abortion does not always = that she was irresponsible and didn't use birth control. Even a responsible woman who uses birth control could become pregnant.



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Originally Posted by MissChievous Also, another issue to consider, is the term "selfish". Society and in general, the term "being selfish" has purely negative conotations. But I think we need to re-evaluate that. Selfish means taking one's one welfare into consideration before others, but that doesn't always have to be seen negatively. I think in many instances, it is necessary to pursue ones own welfare before that of others, without it being considered a bad thing.

I really like this statement. I am proud to be "selfish"!

 

[redambition]

I am pro-choice and a believer in responsible sexual practices. (ie, birth control, sex education etc).

It's up to the woman (and her partner if they are a couple) to make the decision for themselves.

While I myself have never been in that situation, i have had several friends find themselves there. some have chosen abortions, others have chosen to have the child. neither is an easy option or an easy decision to make.

 

[miss_emc]

I don't think anyone has a right to judge someone in a position where they contemplate an abortion until they are in that situation themselves. And it is in no way the 'easy' way out. What you decide to do with your body and your life is completely your perogative. We are here to make our own choices in life and i think we are in a day and age that people should be respectful of others decisions despite their own opinions.

As the old saying goes, don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

 

[SkylarV217]

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Originally Posted by redambition It's up to the woman (and her partner if they are a couple) to make the decision for themselves.

Thats the thing. The father really has no say... Thats another issue I have with the prochoice movement...

I took am very glad that we can discuss/debate the issue in a mature way =) I know we are never all going to agree , But I honestly wanted some more info/ opinions on the subject. Thank you ladies for your view points. I honestly think My mind will not be changed b/c I became pregnant right b/f my freshman year of college. It was a huge deal in my situation b/c I sang in the praise band , taught middleschool girls in sunday school & small groups. My Boyfriend turned into satan and told me the only way we could continue our relationship was if i had an abortion . I know why it is considered and believe me I was there. We made and appointment and drove 5 hours to a clinic. I couldn't / wouldn't do it. I Thank God every day that I didn't b/c of the blessing i received. I was ostracized from my church , my boyfriend left and I had to leave my sorority. Money is tight and working while going to school sucks. But My Son is the best thing that ever happened to me. It make me so mad

to think that he could be lying in some biowaste some where.

 

[redambition]

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 Thats the thing. The father really has no say... Thats another issue I have with the prochoice movement...

I would say that is also an issue with the prolife movement... there isn't much say there either.

While the decision pretty much rests with the woman, the role the father plays (supportive or not) may well influence that woman's decision. That also goes for her support network if she chooses to tell people such as her close friends.

 

[jetplanesex]

Last night I overheard the girl in the apartment above me talking with her friends about whether or not she should get an abortion. The conversation went as followed:

Friend 1: 'I really think you should, Lauren, it's really not that bad.'
Friend 2: 'Yeah, it's not, I mean could you imagine having a kid to have to take care of?'
Lauren: 'This is true, I like to be able to do what I want, when I want.'
Friend 1: 'Yeah, a kid would be such an inconvenience. You wouldn't be able to drink anymore. I know I made my decision to have one because I like to go out and party all the time and I want to be able to do what I want, when I want.'
Friend 2: 'Yeah, same for me. How could I take home guys with a kid? It just wouldn't work. I like to be able to hook up with who I want, when I want -laughs-'

The conversation continued, I closed my patio door at that point. They seemed extremely nonchalant about the situation, like it really wasn't a big deal to get pregnant and then just 'get rid of it'. On the other hand, the girl is CONSTANTLY fighting with her s/o [ and i mean VIOLENT fights, not just arguing ] so it'd probably be best if a child weren't brought up in that environment. I guess I'm not really one to judge, just something I observed and I thought I'd share since the discussion was taking place...

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by redambition I would say that is also an issue with the prolife movement... there isn't much say there either. While the decision pretty much rests with the woman, the role the father plays (supportive or not) may well influence that woman's decision. That also goes for her support network if she chooses to tell people such as her close friends.

And in any event, the woman can sue for a paternity test and child support, which the court will probably award. The court isn't going to accept the excuse, "Well, I told her to get an abortion" from the father. He's going have to be responsible for the child regardless of whether he wants to or not. And if he doesn't - he's stuck with a mountain of debt and the deadbeat dad title, all because he didn't have a say. If you really think about it, it's the father that ends up being "penalized" in the true sense of the word.

 

[Hilly]

I just completed Catholic marriage preparation. Holy heck, we had a session on Natural Family Planning. When the church has people coming in and telling you that birth control is like having an abortion, people's views become distorted, disillusioned. Hmmmm....
(Clearly I am not a "hardcore" Catholic for I do not believe in the birth control stance)