Prolife Or Prochoice

[CaseyKezerian]

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Originally Posted by GreekChick Shit happens. Condoms break. Pills work 99% of the time. A young 15 year old who accidentally becomes pregnant has to throw away a possible career and her entire future, raise the child on her own, all because someone somewhere decided women should just live with that consequence? I agree with ratmist, it's time women supported eachother. We already have men deciding what we should do with our bodies, how we should take charge of our future. Why can't we, as women, be more understanding of one another? Just because you chose not to have an abortion, just because it didn't affect you in a negative way, doesn't mean other women should feel obliged to do the same.

And a child has to die because of the mistake she made? It is not that childs fault that its mother got pregnant. Why should a human being have to die to make things easier for the mother, who shouldn't be having sex at 15 anyways. Once again, there is always the choice of adoption, I guarantee you, if you go to any adoption agency anywhere there is a waiting list a mile long of women who would give anything to have a baby.

 

[duckduck]

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 It's not about what you can or can't do with your body, it's about the body residing in your body.... Human beings should not be discriminated against because of their place of residence.

Oh you bet they should! Sorry to say, but no one gets to reside in my body unless I choose to let them. And, if in spite of my best efforts to prevent it, someone does enter my body without permission, I have every right to expel them.

 

[CaseyKezerian]

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Originally Posted by duckduck Oh you bet they should! Sorry to say, but no one gets to reside in my body unless I choose to let them. And, if in spite of my best efforts to prevent it, someone does enter my body without permission, I have every right to expel them.

You are opening yourself up to letting someone reside in your body by having sex. If you don't want them in your body don't have sex.

 

[carrieann07]

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Originally Posted by CaseyKezerian And a child has to die because of the mistake she made? It is not that childs fault that its mother got pregnant. Why should a human being have to die to make things easier for the mother, who shouldn't be having sex at 15 anyways. Once again, there is always the choice of adoption, I guarantee you, if you go to any adoption agency anywhere there is a waiting list a mile long of women who would give anything to have a baby.

Exactly

But the vast majority want infants/toddlers, like I said before I volunteer at an agency. While there is a list very few adopt kids ages 5 and up.

What about those kids??

 

[CantAffordMAC]

I am pro choice. There are way too many special circumstances and "what ifs" and could be's that come along with this topic. Like seriously...and we all keep naming them. Which is why the topic will never end, it will just keep going around in circles. because one person feels that the cell is a human, and the other feels like you have a right to do whatever you want because its your body.

I can't believe that the thought of actually telling someone what they have to do, and that they have no choice is even an option. I'm sorry but you can't control a person ever, unless they are some kind of criminal and they need to be locked up. You simply can't tell someone what to do, in any aspect of their life. You can't tell someone where to go, what to do, what to say, what to eat, what to wear, how to act...you can't control a human being. We are free. We have the freedom to do anything we want unless it illegal. Abortion is not illegal, and I truly truly hope it will never be illegal. Regardless of what you believe, the fact of the matter is that a person has the right to do whatever they think is best for them and their life.

There are too many what ifs that come about. And personally....I don't think its wrong if a teenage girl was just stupid and didn't use a condom and decided to get an abortion. People make mistakes....especially teenagers. And its just not right to take their freedom away from them.

I will not go into details about my personal life, although many people know anyways. I think this topic is very pleasant and nobody has taken it to a level where it doesn't need to go. But all I will say is that it is terrifying for a young girl, still in high school, to face the fact that she fucked up and is pregnant with a child. It is....gut wrenching. It is one of the scariest things to think that you will be an unfit mother, who hasn't even experienced life or the world yet. And it is even more terrifying to think that she is in this alone...the babys father may be there but he can leave whenever. She is the one who has to raise the child, and tell her family. To think that your own family would shun you or be ashamed of you for having a baby at 17 years old.....is just so scary. I cannot explain it. You wouldn't know unless you were in her shoes. Props to those who said fuck it, I'm gonna keep the baby anyways. Not everyone can do that, and its not the right choice for everyone either.

I think my school did a good job with sex education. Told us about all of the STD's and showed pictures. Even had a woman living with AIDS come in and speak to us. I was so into sex ed that i had a doctors appointment on the day that the speaker with AIDS was coming in...and I switched my appointment. Because I had to hear her speak on it. I'm lucky to have a school that didnt just teach abstinence, and actually taught sex ed.

 

[HeavenLeiBlu]

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Originally Posted by CaseyKezerian I don't understand the statement "no one has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body" what about that baby? Why is it okay for her to kill an innocent baby because it's just not the right time for her. What if that baby were already born and she decided it was too hard to raise it and she was just going to kill it, why is it murder then but it's perfectly okay when they are still a fetus? It is still a human being and just because the mother hasn't given birth to it yet I don't think it's okay for her to kill it. Just think what if any of your mothers decided it wasn't a good time when she was pregnant with you, would you be willing to give up your life so hers could be a little easier? If you don't want the baby there are tons of people who would happily adopt that baby, people who can't have children of their own. If you didn't want to deal with the social stigma that comes with it, you shouldn't be having sex.

*raises hand*

My mother intended to abort me, and my grandmother refused her access to one. My childhood was evenly split among good times, and some really AWFUL, and harrowing times. I have at times lived in conditions worse than some homeless people. Both of my parents have at one time or another been clearly resentful of having me in their way, and they both have mental illnesses, and both have used street drugs and alcohol to self medicate, therefore having them be grossly negligent, leaving me to be mentally (by them), physically (by them), and sexually (by others) abused. There have been multiple occasions during my adolescence where I had contemplated suicide. At least two times, I considered it before I even hit puberty.

I'll spare you the rest of my life story- I mean, don't cry for me, Argentina!
I somehow found it in myself to use whatever I had available to me to do better with my life than my parents had. I have been blessed and lucky enough to rise above those circumstances and experiences, although not unscathed. The reality is that many children that would have been aborted had the choice/resources been available to their mothers live/lived this reality. Of course, not every facet of it, but some, or possibly even more. And even a little bit of what I've gone though is enough to kill someone. And 99% of people who have been forced to live the type of childhood I had turn out to be pretty fucked up people, and usually end up continuing the cycle. Either that, or end up in the foster system, which many times is no better for them (No disrespect to foster parents or adoptive parents that are good, caring people).

Once they're adults, they grow up to live dysfunctional lives and end up being the bad people that everyone complains about, or slowly ( or rapidly!) end up killing themselves or other people, because they are already dead inside. We can wax about adoption endlessly, but the reality is that many people willing to do so ( even if they are genuinely good, loving people and ideal parents) are on the search for the "perfect" child, which is why orphanages are never empty. Aside from the kids who don't have the right age,sex, race, or aesthetic qualities that an adoptive parent might feel are the best fit for their family, there are untold numbers of special needs children who are left out in the wind. Sure, these kids can grow up and overcome it all ( like me), but the reality is that most wont.



Do I wish my mother had went ahead and ended her pregnancy? No. I've managed to mend my relationship with her and I've managed to give myself a pretty decent life. When I ended up a pregnant teen, she wanted me to have an abortion, and at the time I was pro-life and I knew I couldn't live with myself if I had gone through with it. My daughter has given me endless joy ( even when she's driving me up the wall). I have never regretted her life for a second. However, after living life and being in the lives of other people who have found themselves in various situations, I eventually became a pro-choicer. Due to a health condition I have, if I happened to get pregnant again, I'd have a really tough decision to make. Of course I take reasonable precautions to prevent getting pregnant, but the only thing that's 100% is abstinence, and I'm not gonna quit having sex. This is MY reality. There are 6 billion other people on Earth, which = 6 billion other realities.


The stance that a number of pro-lifers ( as represented here, already) have taken is "Who are you to end a life?". To that, I say, who are the pro-life legislators to keep someone from doing what is best for them, and perhaps what is better for everyone involved, or a community?

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by HeavenLeiBlu I'll spare you the rest of my life story- I mean, don't cry for me, Argentina! I somehow found it in myself to use whatever I had available to me to do better with my life than my parents had. I have been blessed and lucky enough to rise above those circumstances and experiences, although not unscathed. The reality is that many children that would have been aborted had the choice/resources been available to their mothers live/lived this reality. Of course, not every facet of it, but some, or possibly even more. And even a little bit of what I've gone though is enough to kill someone. And 99% of people who have been forced to live the type of childhood I had turn out to be pretty fucked up people, and usually end up continuing the cycle. Either that, or end up in the foster system, which many times is no better for them (No disrespect to foster parents or adoptive parents that are good, caring people). Once they're adults, they grow up to live dysfunctional lives and end up being the bad people that everyone complains about, or slowly ( or rapidly!) end up killing themselves or other people, because they are already dead inside. We can wax about adoption endlessly, but the reality is that many people willing to do so ( even if they are genuinely good, loving people and ideal parents) are on the search for the "perfect" child, which is why orphanages are never empty. Aside from the kids who don't have the right age,sex, race, or aesthetic qualities that an adoptive parent might feel are the best fit for their family, there are untold numbers of special needs children who are left out in the wind. Sure, these kids can grow up and overcome it all ( like me), but the reality is that most wont.

First of all, I just want to say that you are an incredibly strong person for having SURVIVED your childhood and then going on to be a wonderful, caring mother for your daughter.

Second of all - you are absolutely correct that most people who had childhoods such as yours would end up as "pretty fucked up people" who would continue the cycle. When I was in school, I read so many cases in both Juvenile Law and essentially a couple of Family Law courses, and you would not believe the shit I was reading. These cases involving child abuse, etc...were so graphic and disturbing, and inevitably the abuser was the product of abuse.

 

[ratmist]

I don't care if your mother didn't want you.

I don't care if your mother was told you'd be defective, and she was so brave and had you anyway.

And I don't care if your mother was a pregnant teen who decided to "take the burden", "suck it up", or "accept the responsibility".

This isn't a topic where your opinion, when based on the circumstances of your conception and birth, affects my rights.

It's a fetus, a potential human being, but its rights don't outweigh my own.

You're not a person until you're in my phonebook.

Female human beings have the right to decide when and where to bear a child. Without that right, a woman is a slave to the biology of her body and circumstances that may or may not be in her control.

It's a basic human right to choose when and where you're going to become a mother. There are many ways to prevent conception, and I am pro-contraception and pro-sex education. Prevention of conception using contraception methods really is the best way to reduce the number of abortions, because most people are gonna f*ck no matter what you tell them.

(Btw, I am 5 months pregnant with my first child. I'm kinda pissy right now with hormones, so if I sound harsh, it's probably because I'm full of hormones and haven't felt well for months.)

 

[ratmist]

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 I have a hard time believing you would be okay with your mother choosing to abort you simply so she could go on with her life as normal or not having to worry about a baby at the moment.

If her mother had aborted her, she (the daughter) wouldn't have had an opinion one way or another. She'd have been dead and wouldn't have known the difference.

God, the "cult of baby" just pisses me off. I'm one of those "it's a fetus" people. And anyway, I'm not happy with adoption in the face of abortion because I don't personally agree with the idea of giving the burden of raising a child over to the government. Why should society deal with it if you don't want to? I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to give a child up for adoption or adopt a child. I'm just pointing out that adoption isn't always a better choice than abortion.

Recently the UK government defended the 24-week cut-off point for abortions. The government ministers were allowed to vote on their conscience. Many of the Catholic cabinet ministers voted for a 12-week cut-off. I find it incredibly distasteful that religious people often feel they have more moral authority in this subject than aetheists or non-secular folk.

 

[rbella]

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Originally Posted by ratmist I don't care if your mother didn't want you. I don't care if your mother was told you'd be defective, and she was so brave and had you anyway. And I don't care if your mother was a pregnant teen who decided to "take the burden", "suck it up", or "accept the responsibility". This isn't a topic where your opinion, when based on the circumstances of your conception and birth, affects my rights. It's a fetus, a potential human being, but its rights don't outweigh my own. You're not a person until you're in my phonebook. Female human beings have the right to decide when and where to bear a child. Without that right, a woman is a slave to the biology of her body and circumstances that may or may not be in her control.

I am pro-choice so I am not disagreeing with your stance, however, wouldn't you agree that most people base their decisions (opinions) on what is right or wrong based upon life experience? The statement about it being just a fetus and only a potential human being is an opinion. Some people have the opinion, because of their life experiences, that a fetus IS a human being. Therefore, it does affect their views of what is a woman's right.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just feel that some people have shared some horrific experiences on here that would probably have a huge affect on what my reasoning behind being "pro-life or pro-choice" would be if I had been in those situations. I am very fortunate and have not, so I cannot understand how they feel.

 

[SkylarV217]

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Originally Posted by ratmist You're not a person until you're in my phonebook.

Typically A person is not in the phonebook until they move out of their parents house =) , I think that may have been a little bit of an overstatement =) . I'm sorry you are having a difficult time with your pregnancy and I hope things get better for you soon !

 

[Shimmer]

Lets ease up on the all caps.

 

[MACForME]

I am Pro-Choice.. not just for me, but for every woman who finds themselves considering the "choice".

I do not believe that abortion should be used as birth control either.

The reason I am Pro-choice is because, no one, should tell someone else what to do with their body. Women should not be seen as baby carriers with no options. Birth control fails. With that in mind, what do you say to someone who uses birth control, obviously to prevent pregnancy and it fails? "Oh well, you're stuck?". Adoption is an option, but why force someone into the mental, emotional and physical demands of something she/they were trying to prevent in the first place.

The one thing I say all the time is abortion is a CHOICE. If you don't want one, you have the choice not too. But take away this choice and you take it away from EVERYONE. I don't see where thats fair, because no one can know what one woman's life is like, how she feels or what goes on in her home. The choice should remain safe and legal.

Reproductive rights should never be public or up to the government. No one wants another person's beliefs shoved down their throats either.

 

[SkylarV217]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Lets ease up on the all caps.

I'm so sorry about that , it wasn't intentional, I was filling in a survey and had CAPed my keyboard so that they could tell my answers from the questions. I hadn't even realized that i had left it on for my response on here , so sorry guys!

I'm used to my computer having all caps b/c it was standard at the medical office i worked in. everything we entered into our system had to be caps for some reason. I truly didn't mean for it to be like i was yelling ..... or emphasizing ...

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkylarV217 Typically A person is not in the phonebook until they move out of their parents house =) , I think that may have been a little bit of an overstatement =) . I'm sorry you are having a difficult time with your pregnancy and I hope things get better for you soon !

Mostly the phonebook statement was a quote from Bill Hicks. I was being sarcastic, not literal. Should've put quote marks round it.

 

[shama510]

Pro-choice. Its my body, its my choice!!!

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella I am pro-choice so I am not disagreeing with your stance, however, wouldn't you agree that most people base their decisions (opinions) on what is right or wrong based upon life experience? The statement about it being just a fetus and only a potential human being is an opinion. Some people have the opinion, because of their life experiences, that a fetus IS a human being. Therefore, it does affect their views of what is a woman's right.

Yes I would, but the laws are meant to be dispassionate. The right to have an abortion is not enshrined with the opinion that a fetus is a human being. Abortion laws vary from country to country, so I'm being deliberately vague here. When we're talking about people's opinions on abortion, I just wanted to state that someone's opinion of whether abortion is right or wrong doesn't have anything to do access to a basic human right.

Of course people are affected by their past, their experiences, etc. I'm not belittling that fact. I'm just saying it's not relevant to whether or not a woman should have the right to an abortion. I realise this is where the debate part steps in, but this is where my mind wanders when people mention their birth/conception stories. It may make for interesting reading, but it's not relevant to whether a woman has the right to choose an abortion. (That sounds really damned bitchy I know, but I am very passionate about a woman's right to choose what happens or does not happen to her body.)

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Originally Posted by rbella I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just feel that some people have shared some horrific experiences on here that would probably have a huge affect on what my reasoning behind being "pro-life or pro-choice" would be if I had been in those situations. I am very fortunate and have not, so I cannot understand how they feel.

Aye. I agree with all that. I just don't agree anyone using their personal experiences (or personal religious beliefs) to justify an argument that would deprive another person of a human right. Anecdotes just aren't good enough.

 

[SkylarV217]

I know the opinions about adoption and the need for older children in the foster-care system. My family has been a foster family for quite some time now and there are heartbreaking stories that come from the system. While I wish the system was better and I agree there desperatly needs to be reform in Foster-care, sex education,and birth control.

Almost every lady that wants a child wants to be the mother of a baby. Thats part of the experience and helps the parents to feel like the child is truly theirs. I can't look down on people for wanting a baby.

 

[SkylarV217]

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Originally Posted by ratmist I just don't agree anyone using their personal experiences (or personal religious beliefs) to justify an argument that would deprive another person of a human right. Anecdotes just aren't good enough.

I disagree here b/c the stories being shared both from prochoice and prolife are more than simple anecdotes. I don't think they are necessarily being shared to back an argument , but rather to let the others know why they hold the position in the debate that they do. This is a subject that many people feel strongly about , so strongly in fact that I don't think one would be swayed on a message board. I may be wrong but i think we are simply sharing our opinions and beliefs. The personal accounts are some of the reasons we feel so strongly about this topic. I know my stance . I wanted and want to know why ladies with both the same stance as mine and opposing views feel the way they do. I feel the stories being shared are very helpful in understand another's view.

 

[ratmist]

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 I disagree here b/c the stories being shared both from prochoice and prolife are more than simple anecdotes. I don't think they are necessarily being shared to back an argument , but rather to let the others know why they hold the position in the debate that they do. This is a subject that many people feel strongly about , so strongly in fact that I don't think one would be swayed on a message board. I may be wrong but i think we are simply sharing our opinions and beliefs. The personal accounts are some of the reasons we feel so strongly about this topic. I know my stance . I wanted and want to know why ladies with both the same stance as mine and opposing views feel the way they do. I feel the stories being shared are very helpful in understand another's view.

I see what you're saying, but in earlier posts you took questioned someone making an analogy about whether they would've really understood if their mother had aborted them. When talking about a very hot topic and basing arguments on fictitious or real stories - anecdotes, by any other name - things get hazy as to whether we're really sharing or not. I think there's a very clear line between sharing a story about one's life - an anecdote - and using it as a basis to justify one's position in a very emotive issue.

This is why I skip past people's arguments when they are given using their birth/conception stories. I don't find them at all useful to a woman who's trying to make a difficult decision. When a woman makes this decision, she's not thinking to herself, "Gee I wonder what I should do? I know - a guilt-inducing story about someone's difficult birth will help me out!" She's thinking to herself, "What should I do? Can I handle the consequences either way? Can I get support?"

Given some of the responses on this board, I don't think that woman always gets support, and that makes me very angry indeed.