WHO is Jesus?
- Thread starter Angelic Me!
- Start date
- Status
Hawkeye
Well-known member
Its such a pity too because I really did want to bask in her infinate wisdom *rolls eyes*
The sad part is-I have had religious discussions with muslim clerics and we didn't agree on a damn thing except that peace should be obtained by understanding and knowledge of the others religion. But then again-he also would actually bring up valid quotes, thoughts and he actually knew the books of the BIBLE.
The sad part is-I have had religious discussions with muslim clerics and we didn't agree on a damn thing except that peace should be obtained by understanding and knowledge of the others religion. But then again-he also would actually bring up valid quotes, thoughts and he actually knew the books of the BIBLE.
MissMarley
Well-known member
Friends, I do appreciate the validity of your arguments, and I appreciate the way you've handled the discussion of Christianity (all of which I agree with, I very much appreciate it when Christians can defend and qualify their faith in an intelligent way), but I think things are getting out of hand. Calling each other stupid and leaving biting comments is exactly why people are afraid to discuss religion. Let's stop attacking each other-be calm, think rationally, and remember, we are not each other's enemies. Christ did not call us to get into bulletin board fights. Surely we can make this better. I'm sorry for everyone who has been hurt in this discussion...I believe we're all at fault for letting things get out of hand.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
MissMarley-
Though I agree with your statement it's really not about christ anymore with this discussion. I'm not sure where it got off but its simply not about it. Now its becoming more of, do you know your faith well enough to defend it against the attack of other faiths? I am of the Native American belief system, I can defend my faith, i have researched it I know how to defend myself, and I have the smarts to look into other faiths.
I can tell people even though it is a personal thing don't go around claiming something if you don't know everything it entails. I tell this to Christians, Muslims, Wiccans, ANYBODY. Know your fundamentles. Know what other religions have to say about the religion you claim to be and be able to defend against that.
At this point in time, that's all I am asking these two to do. Is to think for themselves and *KNOW* their faith and the faith of others. If you don't know your own faith there is no way you can possibly stand up to the attacks from other faiths. As demonstraited very clearly in this thread and the other spinoff threads.
It drives me nuts because many do this. They start throwing themselves out there with no basic understanding of the fundamentals which is so important to know and to grasp. I don't care if people worship frogs as long as they know WHY they do and what all it intails.
Though I agree with your statement it's really not about christ anymore with this discussion. I'm not sure where it got off but its simply not about it. Now its becoming more of, do you know your faith well enough to defend it against the attack of other faiths? I am of the Native American belief system, I can defend my faith, i have researched it I know how to defend myself, and I have the smarts to look into other faiths.
I can tell people even though it is a personal thing don't go around claiming something if you don't know everything it entails. I tell this to Christians, Muslims, Wiccans, ANYBODY. Know your fundamentles. Know what other religions have to say about the religion you claim to be and be able to defend against that.
At this point in time, that's all I am asking these two to do. Is to think for themselves and *KNOW* their faith and the faith of others. If you don't know your own faith there is no way you can possibly stand up to the attacks from other faiths. As demonstraited very clearly in this thread and the other spinoff threads.
It drives me nuts because many do this. They start throwing themselves out there with no basic understanding of the fundamentals which is so important to know and to grasp. I don't care if people worship frogs as long as they know WHY they do and what all it intails.
NtheSticks
Active member
Quote:
no, Christians aren't made to denounce theif fruitloops because we tend to do it WITHOUT having to be 'made to'....
I can tell you that the middle eastern people I've interacted with had to be 'made to' state without having the guts to say '<insert whatever incident you wish> was wrong' where I and others of like mind tend to - in the discussion of remarks made by Pat Robertson - step up and say he needs his mouth washed out with soap and his head examined.
but not ONE of them would say - 'joe mohammed should not have said <whatever you read>'
THAT is one of the big things. and it can't be fear of reprisals, because *everyone* knows we have free speech in America and anyone can say anything and there are no consequences for shooting off your mouth when you need to keep it shut. for example, if you are a business person, you might loose some business...if you are a singer, you might loose some record sales.
(and if anyone doesn't read the sarcasm in that, here it is, just for you)
| Originally Posted by quandolak ...... But christians arent made to denounce their fruitloops. ..... p.s i must stress that the news in the middle east does not mock chrisitanity its of the book and its forbidden to have unconstructive and childish attacks on other religions. bu it is widely assumed that the middle east mocks chrisitaniy wich is not true.. |
no, Christians aren't made to denounce theif fruitloops because we tend to do it WITHOUT having to be 'made to'....
I can tell you that the middle eastern people I've interacted with had to be 'made to' state without having the guts to say '<insert whatever incident you wish> was wrong' where I and others of like mind tend to - in the discussion of remarks made by Pat Robertson - step up and say he needs his mouth washed out with soap and his head examined.
but not ONE of them would say - 'joe mohammed should not have said <whatever you read>'
THAT is one of the big things. and it can't be fear of reprisals, because *everyone* knows we have free speech in America and anyone can say anything and there are no consequences for shooting off your mouth when you need to keep it shut. for example, if you are a business person, you might loose some business...if you are a singer, you might loose some record sales.
(and if anyone doesn't read the sarcasm in that, here it is, just for you)
pumpkincat210
Well-known member
Quote:
I think you've gone beyond proving you are the childish one here.
| Originally Posted by Lalli stop being chidlish and moaning about being yelled at, its a forum for gods sake im not sitting in head and yelling at you. right since when have you had to fear insurgents blowing up a car outside where you live, if you lived in iraq maybe then id understand the need for a gun to protect yourself. |
I think you've gone beyond proving you are the childish one here.
Parishoon
Well-known member
Quote:
Quote:
Many Muslims here have denounce the people killing in the name of Islam, we however cannot control their actions, just as you are not able to control the actions "radical" Christians take in the name of Christianity. This point/counter point has been made ad-naseum and should be well understood by both sides now.
Quote:
The foundations of Islam do not advocate violence. There are five pillars in Islam: belief in a single God(swt), salat-praying 5X a day, zakat-alms/charity, sawm-fasting, & Hajj-pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their life.
The "kill the infidel"/"kill them where you find them" quotes are often taken out of context (similar to Old Testament verses, you know those mean angry vengeful parts, which are "nullified" so to speak by teachings in the New Testament.iirc). The preceding ayah is very important to the following one, where the quote is removed from.
Quote:
It's really only "allowed" in self-defense. If peopel aren't trying to start something with you, it's best you leave them alone, b/c if God(swt) wants, he can give them power over you, while at the same time if there are people who choose to engage first, then you are allowed to defend yourself against them, and them alone. The bolded part is often removed from the context and used as "evidence" that Islam is a violent religion and based in violence.
Quote:
Again, the bolded portion is usually taken out of context as evidence the Q'uran encourages Muslims to "kill the infidels." When read with the preceding verse, it becomes evident that only if there has been a treaty or other agreement made, and it is broken, however there is also the stipulation that it can ONLY occure if they are in a war, with you.
When Islam was "new," those who chose not to convert were taxed. There was no forced conversions, because in Islam, there is no compulsion in religion. By paying taxes, individuals were afforded all the rights and protection of the Caliphate (government) & allowed to worship freely.
True, Muslims spread throughout the known world at the time, conquering places and establishing Islamic "states" but other groups before and after them also conquered lands and exposed the ppl to their belief system/laws.
Islam protects those "people of the book," as they believe in the same Gos (swt). The word infidel is a translation of the word kaffir which has multiple meanings, one being some one who does not accept Mohammed(saw) as a prohpet. Due to negative connotations with the word today, it is prefered to say "Non-Muslim." Many things are just translated incorretly & in inflammatory manners.
We have gotten far off pace from explaining who Jesus(saw) was & indeed have not defined him in the eyes of either religion. I fear however, this conversation will continue to spiral out of control & spawn many more "off topic" pull out threads.
| Originally Posted by quandolak lmao http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/ha...ch/phelps.html So this is just one of millions of examples worldwide of christianity preaching hate...chrisitan leader preaching it...even the heads of many churches have rather alot to say about punishing those who dont agree with them..... BUT SHOULD THAT BE PROOF OF ALL CHRISITANS BEING FAULTERED....NO....IT SHOULD NOT... |
Quote:
| Originally Posted by shimmer Indeed, I don't claim associations with Christians who commit those acts. I don't like the fact that they claim the basis of their faith as Christianity. I can't change that they do. |
Many Muslims here have denounce the people killing in the name of Islam, we however cannot control their actions, just as you are not able to control the actions "radical" Christians take in the name of Christianity. This point/counter point has been made ad-naseum and should be well understood by both sides now.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by shimmer But~the difference lies in that my faith, and the words of Christ, which are the foundation of the teachings of my faith (Nthesticks please correct me if I'm wrong) DO NOT ADVOCATE VIOLENCE. The teachings of Christ, in His words, do not say that people who don't worship as I do are inferior, or should be killed. Can you say the same about your holy text? |
The foundations of Islam do not advocate violence. There are five pillars in Islam: belief in a single God(swt), salat-praying 5X a day, zakat-alms/charity, sawm-fasting, & Hajj-pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their life.
The "kill the infidel"/"kill them where you find them" quotes are often taken out of context (similar to Old Testament verses, you know those mean angry vengeful parts, which are "nullified" so to speak by teachings in the New Testament.iirc). The preceding ayah is very important to the following one, where the quote is removed from.
Quote:
| (Quran verse 4:90) "Except those who are connected with such a people between whom and you there is a pact, or they come to you because their hearts have no strength to fight against you or fight their own people. And if Allah had so pleased, He would certainly have given them control over you, then they would have surely fought with you. So if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them." (Quran verse 4:91) "Now you will find some such other who desire, that they may be safe from you and may be safe from their people too, whenever their people turn them towards mischief they fall head long into it then if they do not keep aloof from you and nor offer you peace and withhold not their hands, seize them and kill them where-ever you find. And these are against whom We have given you clear authority." |
It's really only "allowed" in self-defense. If peopel aren't trying to start something with you, it's best you leave them alone, b/c if God(swt) wants, he can give them power over you, while at the same time if there are people who choose to engage first, then you are allowed to defend yourself against them, and them alone. The bolded part is often removed from the context and used as "evidence" that Islam is a violent religion and based in violence.
Quote:
| (Quran verse 8:56) "Those with whom you had entered into a covenant, then they break their covenant every time and do not fear. " (Quran verse 8:57) "Therefore, if you find them anywhere in war, kill them in such a manner that their remaining ones may be put to flight. Haply they may be admonished. " |
Again, the bolded portion is usually taken out of context as evidence the Q'uran encourages Muslims to "kill the infidels." When read with the preceding verse, it becomes evident that only if there has been a treaty or other agreement made, and it is broken, however there is also the stipulation that it can ONLY occure if they are in a war, with you.
When Islam was "new," those who chose not to convert were taxed. There was no forced conversions, because in Islam, there is no compulsion in religion. By paying taxes, individuals were afforded all the rights and protection of the Caliphate (government) & allowed to worship freely.
True, Muslims spread throughout the known world at the time, conquering places and establishing Islamic "states" but other groups before and after them also conquered lands and exposed the ppl to their belief system/laws.
Islam protects those "people of the book," as they believe in the same Gos (swt). The word infidel is a translation of the word kaffir which has multiple meanings, one being some one who does not accept Mohammed(saw) as a prohpet. Due to negative connotations with the word today, it is prefered to say "Non-Muslim." Many things are just translated incorretly & in inflammatory manners.
We have gotten far off pace from explaining who Jesus(saw) was & indeed have not defined him in the eyes of either religion. I fear however, this conversation will continue to spiral out of control & spawn many more "off topic" pull out threads.
NtheSticks
Active member
I'm not going to pull the quote, Parishoon, but thanks for some interesting, informative and coherent discourse on the koran. I really appreciate it.
What I find irksome is when someone says they want to talk about something 'to gain knowledge' and then proceed to show they aren't seeking knowledge.
I am firm in my faith, and do not mind discussing it. I also do not mind discussing WHY I believe what I believe, nor the WHAT of it.
I have a problem with people who want to discuss every religion under the sun - until you mention Jesus, then BAM! Your a right-wing fanatic. I don't mind being called a Jesus freak, because I am. I am willing to turn the other cheek on a great many subjects. Not all, however, because there are somethings that I hold dear to my heart. However, just because I do doesn't mean someone else holds the same values. That value system is what guides my life.
So, Who is Jesus?
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, was crucified on a cross and buried. On the third day, He arose, according to the Scripture and is alive today. That it was my sins that nailed Him to the cross as much as the Roman soldier driving those nails. That it was His love that held Him there, to make that bridge between man and God. God reached down, because no matter how hard I strive, how high I climb, no matter WHAT or any amount of good deeds I do, they are as filthy rags and will never be good enough to earn a place in heaven.
There are many people who say 'the Bible's full of contradictions' or 'it's a book written by man' while a Christian says that it is the Word of God. That someone penned it doesn't change that it is written by God any more than the secretary typing a dictated letter changes the authorship of that letter. The entire Bible is the Word of God.
As for translations, I don't read Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. So I have to have one that is translated into English. Sorry, but that's what I read. In many, many ways English is a flat language. That's why I will also use different versions - New King James (NKJV) or New International Version (NIV) or perhaps an American Standard Bible (ASB) and a handy little book that has a word of the original text translated for me - where a word is used, what the context of the word is, because with those original languages, context was far more important than with the English language today, such as Strong's .
That is called a Study Aide. Whether a person has any of that or not, as long as they READ the Bible, STUDY the Bible, THINK about what they are reading, and ASK for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then that person will KNOW God. The Old Testament points the way to the Messiah or Christ. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, over 300 of them. (I'm sorry, it's late, and I'm tired so I'm not going to go digging for the exact number) Jesus performed the miracles, reached out to those the legalistic Pharisees and Sadducees thought weren't 'good enough' to be worth anything.
What is so wonderful about Christ is that He loves you too, enough to die for you. Your choice is to believe that or not, but He loves you enough to let you choose.
You have a problem with Christ being the Son of God because there is no reason for Him to have a Son. The reason is so that there is NOTHING we face that He didn't face . . . and didn't give in to the sin. He who was without sin became sin for us, again, to heal that seperation. Again, it is your choice. I'm not going to condemn you. It isn't my job to judge you, condemn you, cajole, wheedle or coax you into believing it's true or not. It is, however, my job to tell you about Him. I love to talk about my Savior. I love to talk about what He does in my life. I love to tell you that He loves you too.
Now, THAT is *my* answer to the question "who is Jesus?" And it is the answer.
What I find irksome is when someone says they want to talk about something 'to gain knowledge' and then proceed to show they aren't seeking knowledge.
I am firm in my faith, and do not mind discussing it. I also do not mind discussing WHY I believe what I believe, nor the WHAT of it.
I have a problem with people who want to discuss every religion under the sun - until you mention Jesus, then BAM! Your a right-wing fanatic. I don't mind being called a Jesus freak, because I am. I am willing to turn the other cheek on a great many subjects. Not all, however, because there are somethings that I hold dear to my heart. However, just because I do doesn't mean someone else holds the same values. That value system is what guides my life.
So, Who is Jesus?
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, was crucified on a cross and buried. On the third day, He arose, according to the Scripture and is alive today. That it was my sins that nailed Him to the cross as much as the Roman soldier driving those nails. That it was His love that held Him there, to make that bridge between man and God. God reached down, because no matter how hard I strive, how high I climb, no matter WHAT or any amount of good deeds I do, they are as filthy rags and will never be good enough to earn a place in heaven.
There are many people who say 'the Bible's full of contradictions' or 'it's a book written by man' while a Christian says that it is the Word of God. That someone penned it doesn't change that it is written by God any more than the secretary typing a dictated letter changes the authorship of that letter. The entire Bible is the Word of God.
As for translations, I don't read Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. So I have to have one that is translated into English. Sorry, but that's what I read. In many, many ways English is a flat language. That's why I will also use different versions - New King James (NKJV) or New International Version (NIV) or perhaps an American Standard Bible (ASB) and a handy little book that has a word of the original text translated for me - where a word is used, what the context of the word is, because with those original languages, context was far more important than with the English language today, such as Strong's .
That is called a Study Aide. Whether a person has any of that or not, as long as they READ the Bible, STUDY the Bible, THINK about what they are reading, and ASK for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then that person will KNOW God. The Old Testament points the way to the Messiah or Christ. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, over 300 of them. (I'm sorry, it's late, and I'm tired so I'm not going to go digging for the exact number) Jesus performed the miracles, reached out to those the legalistic Pharisees and Sadducees thought weren't 'good enough' to be worth anything.
What is so wonderful about Christ is that He loves you too, enough to die for you. Your choice is to believe that or not, but He loves you enough to let you choose.
You have a problem with Christ being the Son of God because there is no reason for Him to have a Son. The reason is so that there is NOTHING we face that He didn't face . . . and didn't give in to the sin. He who was without sin became sin for us, again, to heal that seperation. Again, it is your choice. I'm not going to condemn you. It isn't my job to judge you, condemn you, cajole, wheedle or coax you into believing it's true or not. It is, however, my job to tell you about Him. I love to talk about my Savior. I love to talk about what He does in my life. I love to tell you that He loves you too.
Now, THAT is *my* answer to the question "who is Jesus?" And it is the answer.
NtheSticks
Active member
Quote:
I'm not able to interpret the word "disredite" - unless you were trying to type 'discredit'...if that is so, then let's sally forth.
exactly how did I prove my point wrong in the other post? I believe I asked what would be proof to your point of view? What would you consider proof?
*I* haven't gone off on someone yet....and I do use the operative word. But please show me where I proved my point wrong.
| Originally Posted by quandolak lmao you say this but lets put it this way. i dont mind talking about every religion under the sun but when i or someone else metuions islam people disredite the conversation before anything actually gets discussed as your reaction to the other topic shows. Butthen again you did do a wonderful job at proving your own point wrong. |
I'm not able to interpret the word "disredite" - unless you were trying to type 'discredit'...if that is so, then let's sally forth.
exactly how did I prove my point wrong in the other post? I believe I asked what would be proof to your point of view? What would you consider proof?
*I* haven't gone off on someone yet....and I do use the operative word. But please show me where I proved my point wrong.
NtheSticks
Active member
unless you are referring to my comment that my mind is closed ON the fact that Jesus is the Christ.
If that is your 'proof of my own point being wrong' you are entirely missing the point. I am interested in learning about islam/muslim faith, as I talk with people of other faiths. They know where I stand, and I know where they stand. if with my discussing WHAT I believe and WHY I believe it and listening to you discuss what you believe and why you believe it and you think the two of us are trying to 'convert' the other, you aren't actually trying to learn about where someone else is coming from.
if that's what you are referring to, all I can do is sigh. If it's something else, please tell me.
If that is your 'proof of my own point being wrong' you are entirely missing the point. I am interested in learning about islam/muslim faith, as I talk with people of other faiths. They know where I stand, and I know where they stand. if with my discussing WHAT I believe and WHY I believe it and listening to you discuss what you believe and why you believe it and you think the two of us are trying to 'convert' the other, you aren't actually trying to learn about where someone else is coming from.
if that's what you are referring to, all I can do is sigh. If it's something else, please tell me.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
Right so you still can't tell the difference between the old testiment and the new testiment. Just because you sat through a catholic school for x amount of years doesnt mean you learned anything.
I went to a private christian school for 8 years and I didn't learn a damn thing except the same rhetoric that most Christian church's preach. It wasn't until I branched on my own and actually decided to think for myself I was able to learn something.
You should try it!
Nthesticks-
The truth of the matter is this one will argue until she has the final say. She's still wrong. She doesnt like the fact that shes wrong. She doesnt like the fact that she has to look deeper into her faith like everyone must at one point in time. I don't care what faith you are you still gotta do it.
Just remember-we're probably arguing with a teenager.
I went to a private christian school for 8 years and I didn't learn a damn thing except the same rhetoric that most Christian church's preach. It wasn't until I branched on my own and actually decided to think for myself I was able to learn something.
You should try it!
Nthesticks-
The truth of the matter is this one will argue until she has the final say. She's still wrong. She doesnt like the fact that shes wrong. She doesnt like the fact that she has to look deeper into her faith like everyone must at one point in time. I don't care what faith you are you still gotta do it.
Just remember-we're probably arguing with a teenager.
Life In Return
Well-known member
I was going to respond to the last post directed at me, but this thread took a whole different turn :\ ... So... my prayer is that the truth is seen and that souls get saved and come to know the glorious Redeemer that is Jesus Christ before it is too late.
In Christ Alone,
J
In Christ Alone,
J
NtheSticks
Active member
the original question "WHO is Jesus?"
I believe I answered that question earlier.
But I want to continue to carry this forward with that question. The real question is "Who do you say He is?" For until you accept Him as Savior - and not all will - then the discussion goes 'all around the mulberry bush' much like a puppy chasing his tail.
For quandolak: Attending Catholic or other religious schools might lead some people to think only Christians attend those schools. I never have been in a Christian school. I have associated with many who have attended the private schools affiliated with various religions, including islam. My humble opinion is that the parents made a choice for an education for their children, and the choice they made included religious training. Some kids run so hard from anything associated with their parents that they make choices that really aren't in their best interest. Some turn to drugs, some turn to alcohol, some go to any extreme they can to do the OPPOSITE of what their parents want them to do.
Someone once said 'my religion and faith is personal' as a defense against going to church. I replied that it is a personal matter - between you and God. I hope you settle it to your satisfaction. Now you want to go.....whatever activity I was about to wade off into....with me? I'll extend the invitation. Proper manners if one wishes to decline is 'no thank you' rather than a vitrolic attack.
So a person who wants to know who Jesus and God are must study the Bible but if they aren't truly seeking Him, it will probably be just another book to them.
In trying to see others point of view, I've tried to learn where they are coming from and to what they refer. I've read parts of the koran, I've seen many similiarities between what I read and the Old Testament. I've read the book of mormon, (there is a religion that is full of contradiction of itself) and the tenets of faith for that religion. I've talked with wise men of some tribes - native americans - who I've interacted with. People who can carry on a conversation w/o getting their hackles raised. (on here, I think there might be a couple who would fall into that classification)
so again, it's not who *I* say Jesus is, for my life, but who do *you* say He is, for your life. That is the question each individual must answer.
I believe I answered that question earlier.
But I want to continue to carry this forward with that question. The real question is "Who do you say He is?" For until you accept Him as Savior - and not all will - then the discussion goes 'all around the mulberry bush' much like a puppy chasing his tail.
For quandolak: Attending Catholic or other religious schools might lead some people to think only Christians attend those schools. I never have been in a Christian school. I have associated with many who have attended the private schools affiliated with various religions, including islam. My humble opinion is that the parents made a choice for an education for their children, and the choice they made included religious training. Some kids run so hard from anything associated with their parents that they make choices that really aren't in their best interest. Some turn to drugs, some turn to alcohol, some go to any extreme they can to do the OPPOSITE of what their parents want them to do.
Someone once said 'my religion and faith is personal' as a defense against going to church. I replied that it is a personal matter - between you and God. I hope you settle it to your satisfaction. Now you want to go.....whatever activity I was about to wade off into....with me? I'll extend the invitation. Proper manners if one wishes to decline is 'no thank you' rather than a vitrolic attack.
So a person who wants to know who Jesus and God are must study the Bible but if they aren't truly seeking Him, it will probably be just another book to them.
In trying to see others point of view, I've tried to learn where they are coming from and to what they refer. I've read parts of the koran, I've seen many similiarities between what I read and the Old Testament. I've read the book of mormon, (there is a religion that is full of contradiction of itself) and the tenets of faith for that religion. I've talked with wise men of some tribes - native americans - who I've interacted with. People who can carry on a conversation w/o getting their hackles raised. (on here, I think there might be a couple who would fall into that classification)
so again, it's not who *I* say Jesus is, for my life, but who do *you* say He is, for your life. That is the question each individual must answer.
- Status
