WHO is Jesus?

[Life In Return]

While I don't have time to respond to your thread, Parishoon ( I will after I get home from work ), I will say that I do read CARM (don't know what CAM is ) but their results of research are the same as mine.

I need to get to sleep, but I will def respond later.

 

[quandolak]

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[Rina_cz]

News. Sometimes they can be one sided, and report things that are untrue. However, to answer your question on why people view Muslims in a hostile way, I tell you to look to the news.

I don't condone violence or hostility to others in any way. But in some ways, I can see where they are coming from when they do.

I am not an ecumenist, therefore I might come off as "ignorant" because I stick to my beliefs, but it is because I desire for others to know the truth. All you have to do is say no; my job is done.

 

[lara]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amandamakeup same thing here.. you can talk about religion, and all say,, its freedom of speech or whatever...yet i get called immature for saying screw this... my computer... my right to say what i want... now im outta here.

Perhaps you were called immature because your response ('screw this') wasn't particularly mature. As others have said, you can choose not to read religious topics, or any other topic that bores you (I, for one, can't be bothered with endless discussions about Parrot eyeshadow, but you don't read me throwing an e-tanty.

).

We're all adults or young adults here, so let's keep the discussion on an adult level.

 

[quandolak]

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[stacey]

quandolak, I think what she meant about the news thing is that because it is biased the world view on us Muslims are heavily skewed. There's really nothing we can do about that but not believe in it and know the truth. Obviously it is hard because most of us are not in Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan so we don't know what's going on. A joke that's going around is the reason why the media is so biased against Muslims is because Jews run the show. (Don't get mad at me, I just had to state it cause I think it's funny)

I know for sure that President Bush is getting sh*t for the Iraq war. IMO, Bush is a dumbass... but that's my own opinion.

What doesn't go into the media, though, is the good things that people are doing overseas. A lot of negative media isn't good for the health. (hehe) It's depressing and puts a damper on a lot of people's views on the Mid East when in fact - or so I've heard - even though countries in the Mid East (minus Dubai) are "third world" are also very beautiful. Of course with war the beauty goes away but still beautiful nonetheless.

 

[stacey]

Also, to add - Becuase of the media a lot of people believe that Islam is a religion purely on hate when in reality Islam and Muslims are peaceful. Now I won't go into anything about "72 virgins" or sh*t like that because 1) I don't have the answers & 2) It's not relavent.

At any rate. Go on with the discussion

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissMarley Well said, Shimmer. The concept of a Holy Trinity is difficult for finite human minds to grasp. But as a Christian, I believe that a God so big that He could create our entire universe would have to be more than just one "thing". The Trinity concept, of the Father (God), Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit (the essence of God which fills and guides those who place their faith in Him) makes a lot more sense to me than just some old spiritual guy sitting on a cloud somewhere. Also, we have to remember that Jesus' death and resurrection were vital to be a sacrifice to atone for our sins- if Jesus was just a man, then His sacrifice wasn't important and didn't cover our sins- we still have to fear God's wrath. However, because we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, sent to die in our place and be reborn, taking away all our sin and hurt, that sacrifice is the most important thing in the world. Obviously, I'm saying all this from a Christian worldview. I am trying, in my own way, to explain why I disagree with the email that was posted at the beginning of this thread. I understand that many of you follow different religions, and I'm not trying to force my views down anyone's throat. I do, however, welcome the opportunity to share my beliefs in an intelligent discussion with people I enjoy talking to- which would be you, my fellow Specktrites. I think this is fascinating, and that we can learn from each other. I didn't become a Christian till I was in high school, and I'm glad that I did- my life has taken a path I never expected, but I love it. I also don't understand why we've mentioned several times that various religious texts were written by men- does that make them less trustworthy? I understand that we are strong women, and I will call myself a feminist- but that means I believe I am equal to a man, not that men are more falliable than women. And I do not think Christianity demeans women in any way- there are Scriptures that have been twisted to demean women, but in their proper context, they do not at all.

It's not that they were written by men the gender as much as men the humanity.
However, the translations have been changed over the years, and a LOT is lost in the translation, in addition, certain religious texts and gospels have been excluded for the basis of the 'better good' so to speak.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parishoon As for the hereafter, you believe one way and I another, I cannot explain to you the meaning in my heart of a God(wwt) most merciful, most benifical, and oft forgiving, but I can imagine it is similar to how you feel as having accepted Christ(saw) as your savior. (warm & fuzzy?) And I can only pray that inshallah I have done enough good to be worthy of reward. The different ways deeds are counted in Islam as I recall will influence your eternity. Muslims believe there are two angels, on records good deeds and one records bad, on the day of judgement these will be weighed against each other, it's not a strict one for one scale, and intentions do factor in. I must be an active participant in ensuring my place in the hereafter.

This is an interesting part of your post, (everything else, to me is semantical in nature...) because in accordance to the Christian faith (specifically Baptist, Southern Baptist in my case, and I'm not speaking for ANY other religion, so please keep that in mind) entrance into Heaven is NOT guaranteed through deeds. In fact, the Bible specifically states that deeds and goodwill will earn man no favor in the eyes of the Lord if man has not accepted and made acknowledgement of the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ on the cross.
In fact, in accordance with my faith, this is a perversion, because it goes completely against anything taught within Christ's word.
There is a specific verse that addresses this, and I can't recall off the top of my head, but it basically says NO man may get to the Lord but through Christ, and that means that without accepting and acknowledging His sacrifice, a life lived doing nothing but good is a life wasted...

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Ok well someone said that the quaran opresses women.. Now this really does my head in cos is this seriously the best people can come up with time and time again. For a start it is completley untriue and also other major religion have verses that translate to far more severe or *oppressive* acts. One of the main reasons i became a muslim is because it treats women more fairly. I am treated better now than when i was anglican or at one point catholic. When i was anglican and at school and in society in general women are judged on rather meaningless points. And we were treated like bits of meat. The quaran gives me more rights than many woman in first world christian countries have in this day and age. But people get obsessive with telling me their little quotes of some lame site with incorrect Translation. Well GIVE UP cos i can speak fluent arabic so there is no point in trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Also i feel much more free wearing the hijab than i did not wearing it. biut as always the free christian country i live in is so *free* that it wants me to take it off to show that repressed freedom they love..freedom that means all options are not available but infact only a few..lame..... i have been thrown out of playgroups etc..one woman found out i was going to the same one as her and promptly told me to leave or she would go to anotjer group..so i told he well looks like u will have to go... she said she didnt want to let her son be influenced by people with oppressive ideas...i said ''thats a shame cos you were doing a wonderful job as it is''....she never came back...all cos she was too scared to learn something new or challenge her ignorant views... Also the largest percentage of converts to islam are young women and the main reaon they give is that it gives them more freedom and rights..i canserioulsy hand on heart say that i am treated wonderfully now..people have such respect...its not that i want people worhipping me but its nice to have some ammount of manners and thought put into how men act..which i never saw before... Either way ive never said christian women are oppressed but my experiences have been better as a muslim...But they seem to have no problem telling me all these aimless quotes that arent even translated properly to back up their pushy attacks. Im not attacking your religon or what you belive in..i belive everyone should be allowed to belive in what they want. But why are muslim free for all to attack?...Im not desperate to prove someone elses religion meaningless but some people on this forum serioulsy spend ridiculous amounts of time on doing just that. Also it rather contradicts their own religions teachings on such subjects. Its rather sad needing to demean others beliefs while no even being able to stick to your own and with the full knowladge that you are copy pasting of venomous sites set up to breed hate.

I am going to respectfully disagree that Muslims are free for all attack.
Why?
Because too many different comics, printed, filmed, and spoken, have skewered the Catholic Church for the molestation scandals.
With no reprimand. In fact, much of the world laughs when they do it (don't believe me? Check out Southpark's ratings for episodes where they do just that.)
Because too many editorials cartoons, movies (Hi. DOGMA anyone?), jokes, columns, etc. are written and performed and displayed poking fun at Christ, his sacrifice, and his life.
And it's okay, by the rest of the world. When Christians speak out POLITELY or PEACABLY they are called "RIGHT WINGERS" or "BIBLE THUMPERS".
But...when a cartoon is drawn of Muhammed, fires erupt. People are shot. Stores are looted. Violence is sanctioned and acted out on and threatened and everyone should just be OKAY with that.

THAT is what gives Muslims a bad name.
I don't follow the Muslim faith.
I have no intention of EVER following the Muslim faith.
I don't hold ANY sanctity what so ever of or to the Muhammed, and I don't ever intend to.
I say that not as disrespect, but because I want to prove a point.
If I choose to screen print a picture of the turban bomb muhammed drawing and wear it on a tshirt, I have that right. AND I have the right to do so without fear of being killed, shot, injured, or targeted.
But I can't. And, honestly I wouldn't, out of respect for the number of Muslims in my area.

Yet, when I see people wearing the shirts mocking Christ, the entire world is all cool with that.
So I ask you...who gives Muslims a bad name? And...why is it okay to mock Christianity, but not Islam?

 

[quandolak]

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[quandolak]

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[quandolak]

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[Shimmer]

Whoa. Oh no. Whoa.

I'm quite aware of the undesirable element of the people professing to share faith with me. I am aware of the forced 'conversions' of indigenous peoples.
I do not condone any of this behaviour, and I never have.
I have in fact stated repeatedly that fundamentalists of any faith (including my own) have a tendency to ruin it for the moderates.
I did not imply, nor did I say, that you wanted me to be Muslim.

However, I have to question, again, how members of the Muslim faith can justify the riots etc. that broke out earlier this year?

Btw, I am not Catholic, nor do I condone MOST of what the Catholic church does...so speaking to me regarding any atrocities committed by the Catholic church isn't going to get much of a response other than a *shrug* at best.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Also no one has the rioght to insult others religious figure no matter how much they want to make some lame petty point about it. There is room for disussion about religion and what we do and do not belive in and also how we wish things were.. but there is no need to have this obsession with this childish *right* to think that putting down others religious figures will further our own beliefs.

Perhaps you should reread my post.
I said I wouldn't do so, though I certainly DO have the right to.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak and is it ok to mock christianity ...well no it is not..but the same applies to islam..as much as you would like to belive it doesnt...also members of each religion are doing a rather fine job of mocking their own religion.

Indeed they do.


And, quite honestly, those who wear the Buddy Jesus shirts don't have to worry about walking around and getting the crap kicked out of them by a group of Baptists walking through the mall.
In contrast, were someone to wear a bomb turbaned muhammed tshirt, that person would LITERALLY have to fear for his life. Or her life. The same as the cartoonists who drew the original editorials have to (still, today, months later) fear for THEIR lives, and contend with DAILY death threats.

Not quite the same, is it?

 

[quandolak]

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[Juneplum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amandamakeup same thing here.. you can talk about religion, and all say,, its freedom of speech or whatever...yet i get called immature for saying screw this... my computer... my right to say what i want... now im outta here.

buh bye

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak I read the posts and yes i said catholic in the philippines..but in chile there are many christian denominations aswell as catholics..and if it doesnt count despit ethem all beliveng int the bible then how come what wahhabis do counts for sunnis, and shia too?!...but lets gloss over that shall we..convenient.

I did not discount their behaviour. In fact, I agreed with you in denouncing it. Perhaps you missed that part in your fervor to attack my statements. ANYONE claiming the death of another person is due to the will of ANY higher power (God, Christ, Muhammed, Matt & Trey, Warner brothers, Xenu, whatever) is nothing more than a murderer using religion as validation. I never glossed over anyone or anything.
Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak And whinging about t-shirts..look if you seriously believe that chrisitans dont attack muslims over what they wear then i may aswell end this conversation...you should spend a day in my shoes and you will see what christians do..belive me verbal and physical assault is not a lovely thing but even more annoying when it doesnt count cos im the wrong religion for it to be valid...anyways this is like hitting my head against a brick wall..its clearly going to get nowhere as you are set on believing what is only expected of you and clearly dont have the capacity to accept that other religons not only christians butmuslims..buddhists, hindus..sikhs...are discriminated against and are steroetyped in a way that people base their voiews on a few members of that religion..

Yes. I seriously believe that you are perfectly capable of walking down the street in my city and wearing whatever you want to wear without any fear whatsoever, other than people like me looking at you like you're crazy because it's HOT outside, and not because of your faith.
I never said physical assault of anyone didn't count. Nor did I say you were the wrong religion. Don't put words into my mouth thank you. I never denied stereotypes either, btw, so again, do not put words into my mouth, thank you.
Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Luckily i dont base my views on the christian faith on some of its followers who lead themselves atray with fairtales. I respect christianity as its valid and christians are fellow people of the book. What i dont respect is immature molding of the religion or other religions into what ever political pick and mix joke people feel the need to do.

Regarding the shirts, it's an example, not a literal situation.
That said, it's difficult for a correct impression of ANY religion, NOT just Muslim/Islam, to be formed when extremists are continually commiting acts of terror and causing widespread chaos.
That goes for any faith, again, not just Islam, or Christianity, or whatever other random faith you can come up with.
Violence, on behalf of any religion, is reprehensible, and should be treated as such.
However, it is HIGHLY difficult to get an impression of a peace loving religion (and this is specific now) when Muslims across the WORLD were advocating violence and death over two or three cartoons.
And, while there WERE Muslims advocating peace and rationalism in that particular situation, their voices were drowned out by the MANY more who were advocating death and destruction and boycotting and on and on.

 

[Throwaway Style]

I totally think Shimmer makes an amazing point with the whoile deal about people mocking Christianity and Islam.
And of course it's not like a majority of Muslims would overreact to that, but the fact is that SOME did, and that gave Muslims around the world a bad name.
And this is all so diffrent depending on WHERE you are seeing this information from, what your oppinion is on these situations, what type of a person you are.
It could be said that the media attempts to paint a negative picture of the Muslims, while places that are painly Islamic could paint a negative picture of the United States because of our religion, because it's not like there aren't radical Christians out there, but it seems as though the Media covers them less, because if they turned all their attention to that, other Christians might easily get upset saying that not all Christians are like that. (which of course would be a true statement)
I really don't know if any of that made sense to people, sorry if it doesn't.
And in my opinion, most relgions (whith the exception of buddhism and ba'hai) are unfair to women.