WHO is Jesus?

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli Maybe Christians are not as bothered about the "t-shirts and catoons" as muslims. your comments about riots and people getting shot, is in reference to a small group of muslims whom you would class as orthodox or whatever, just because some muslims want to be stupd and go out and shoot and cause riots its stupid to say all muslims have a bad rep for doing so, dont forget Islam is the second largest religion in the world, does that mean all of them are rioters and shooters? i shouldnt think so

I recognize that Islam is the second largest religion in the world.
I appreciate that it is.
I do not for a moment believe that all Muslims believe in violence as a solution to problems.
I do however believe that the Muslims of the world who believe in violence as a solution to problems get much more attention than the ones who do not.
Christians ARE bothered by the shirts and cartoons. They find them tasteless and debasing as Muslims do regarding muhammed. However, the reactions are diametrically opposed to each other.

 

[Lalli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer I don't think you're attacking my post, but I have to ask how you reconcile Jesus being taken up by God, and not being the son of God, when He fulfilled over 300 prophesies as Messiah, as well as died on the cross and record shows that he was resurrected. Of course, this is within my religion, so that is from whence I speak.

there have been many speculations as to whether or not Jesus really died. his body may have "died" but his soul is not dead and he will be back as a normal human being and fight for the people of this world. i wont ever accept that Jesus is the son of god, God doesnt have or will ever have any children, why wernt the rest of the millions of other messiah's considered as the "sons of God" God is the divine being and in a hierarchy God is at the top, then his words{scriptures} THEN the messengers of God{Muhammed, JESUS, etc etc]

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli Except the Quran. its widely known that the testaments in the bible have been changed, Jewish scriptures also have been chnged, hinduism sikhism also have had things added, whereas the Quran once completed has remained the same. i dnt even knw why this is on a make up forum, lets all go and do our make up for fun

Indeed.
However, I think you would have to agree that the words of the Quran are just as twisted and misconstrued as a means to an end as any other religious text.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli there have been many speculations as to whether or not Jesus really died. his body may have "died" but his soul is not dead and he will be back as a normal human being and fight for the people of this world. i wont ever accept that Jesus is the son of god, God doesnt have or will ever have any children, why wernt the rest of the millions of other messiah's considered as the "sons of God" God is the divine being and in a hierarchy God is at the top, then his words{scriptures} THEN the messengers of God{Muhammed, JESUS, etc etc]

I already answered these questions regarding Christ as son of God in earlier posts in this thread.
Regarding why the other prophets not being son of God, God gave His son (His ONLY son) in sacrifice for our sins.

 

[Lalli]

these people are not classed as MUSLIMS. Islam gives importance to TWO forms of JIHAD. One: Jihad of the Nafs{ur belief} if one can conquer this then it is the greatest battle of all, if you can stand firm with your beliefs then you are true muslim.
2. Lesser Jihad: ONLY and ONLY must be performed when your religion/community is under attack, The USA, UK are only intrested in OIL! nothing else, the People of Iraq, Palestine etc etc are retaliating with so called "freedom fighters" who want the troops out and go about killing innocent people, these attackers are not true muslims so you need to broaden your horizans a lil. Also if the troops would simply pull out then there would be peace, why are they there? Saddam has been caught, Zawarqi the "so called leader of terrorism" was shot dead last week, and Osama bin laden HAS still not been caught yet he is enjoying american luxuries in Dubai hospitals and recieving free treatments. its all about OIL. "foreigners" have caused destruction in their homelands and ppl want them out and go to desperate measures to do so, doesnt mean they are muslims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer I recognize that Islam is the second largest religion in the world. I appreciate that it is. I do not for a moment believe that all Muslims believe in violence as a solution to problems. I do however believe that the Muslims of the world who believe in violence as a solution to problems get much more attention than the ones who do not. Christians ARE bothered by the shirts and cartoons. They find them tasteless and debasing as Muslims do regarding muhammed. However, the reactions are diametrically opposed to each other.

 

[Lalli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer I already answered these questions regarding Christ as son of God in earlier posts in this thread. Regarding why the other prophets not being son of God, God gave His son (His ONLY son) in sacrifice for our sins.

yet from the death of jesus you're meant to recieve salvation, why should god have to sacrifice his "child" for the sins of this world, people are still sinning..

 

[Lalli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer Indeed. However, I think you would have to agree that the words of the Quran are just as twisted and misconstrued as a means to an end as any other religious text.

no i dont agree. how many times has the bible exactly been changed and added to? i have like 3 diff versions all given to me in school at home which are all different..i read the Quran on a daily basis. what i read fits in with what i belive. if i cant find answers to present day situatios in the text, i refer to hadith, or the Four Schools of Law. one way or another through the text of the Quran i get what i need

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli yet from the death of jesus you're meant to recieve salvation, why should god have to sacrifice his "child" for the sins of this world, people are still sinning..

The sacrifice was not meant to stop sin.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli no i dont agree. how many times has the bible exactly been changed and added to? i have like 3 diff versions all given to me in school at home which are all different..i read the Quran on a daily basis. what i read fits in with what i belive. if i cant find answers to present day situatios in the text, i refer to hadith, or the Four Schools of Law. one way or another through the text of the Quran i get what i need

So, what you're saying is that those who use the Quran as the basis for their rationalization for the terrorist attacks, or for suicide bombings, or other situations of mass murder, and who use the Quran's texts, teachings, and quotes as foundations for that behaviour...
They are not twisting the Quran's teachings? They are following the Quran as it is meant to be understood?

I hope that isn't what you are saying, but that is what it sounds like.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli these people are not classed as MUSLIMS. Islam gives importance to TWO forms of JIHAD. One: Jihad of the Nafs{ur belief} if one can conquer this then it is the greatest battle of all, if you can stand firm with your beliefs then you are true muslim. 2. Lesser Jihad: ONLY and ONLY must be performed when your religion/community is under attack, The USA, UK are only intrested in OIL! nothing else, the People of Iraq, Palestine etc etc are retaliating with so called "freedom fighters" who want the troops out and go about killing innocent people, these attackers are not true muslims so you need to broaden your horizans a lil. Also if the troops would simply pull out then there would be peace, why are they there? Saddam has been caught, Zawarqi the "so called leader of terrorism" was shot dead last week, and Osama bin laden HAS still not been caught yet he is enjoying american luxuries in Dubai hospitals and recieving free treatments. its all about OIL. "foreigners" have caused destruction in their homelands and ppl want them out and go to desperate measures to do so, doesnt mean they are muslims.

IF THE TROOPS WOULD PULL OUT THERE WOULD BE PEACE???
There has NEVER been peace in that area, it's been a constant struggle of violence!
Btw, FYI, before this vein of conversation goes any further, you're talking to someone with VERY close ties to what is going on over there...very close, unbiased, uninterested in anything but what the job is ties.
I, personally, do not wish this vein of conversation to continue further, because it will only escalate into a discussion that causes division and hard feelings.

 

[Shimmer]

I do not profess to have every answer.
I do not profess to have ANY answers for someone else.
I have answers for ME. I have MY truth. I have studies I have done to satisfy MYSELF in my spiritual quest.
I have shown my truth.
I do NOT claim anyone's truth is right, or wrong, or bad, evil, malignent, etc.
I do not claim my truth as the only truth, I claim it as the only truth for ME.
I do not belittle or denigrate others' beliefs, despite disagreeing with them.
I will not, however, allow my own personal truths and beliefs to be maligned or attacked.

 

[Lalli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer So, what you're saying is that those who use the Quran as the basis for their rationalization for the terrorist attacks, or for suicide bombings, or other situations of mass murder, and who use the Quran's texts, teachings, and quotes as foundations for that behaviour... They are not twisting the Quran's teachings? They are following the Quran as it is meant to be understood? I hope that isn't what you are saying, but that is what it sounds like.

like i said THEY are not muslims. they twist and make thier own intepretations and hence there is a small and i repeat SMALL minority who choose to blacken the name of Islam

 

[Lalli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer IF THE TROOPS WOULD PULL OUT THERE WOULD BE PEACE??? There has NEVER been peace in that area, it's been a constant struggle of violence! Btw, FYI, before this vein of conversation goes any further, you're talking to someone with VERY close ties to what is going on over there...very close, unbiased, uninterested in anything but what the job is ties. I, personally, do not wish this vein of conversation to continue further, because it will only escalate into a discussion that causes division and hard feelings.

dont mean to sound rude, but their violence is their business not Americas or the UK's, i know someone whos brother was 19 only 19 and was in Iraq for 3 months and was killed, innocent troops regardless of what race religion they are, are getting KILLED when it has NOTHING and ABSOLOUTLEY NOTHING to do with AMERICA OR THE UK. if there is civil war in a country it needs to be dealt with it itself. no need for George Bush or Tony blair to stick their as sses in and cause more problems

 

[Lalli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer I do not profess to have every answer. I do not profess to have ANY answers for someone else. I have answers for ME. I have MY truth. I have studies I have done to satisfy MYSELF in my spiritual quest. I have shown my truth. I do NOT claim anyone's truth is right, or wrong, or bad, evil, malignent, etc. I do not claim my truth as the only truth, I claim it as the only truth for ME. I do not belittle or denigrate others' beliefs, despite disagreeing with them. I will not, however, allow my own personal truths and beliefs to be maligned or attacked.

what I believe is what I believe, we have dvisions amongst muslims like shia's sunni's wahabis, suffis etc etc yet i dont bother to let what they believe effect me coz we all follow one religion
when it comes to non-muslims i went to a CATHOLIC school and what they believe has nothing to do with me and i wudnt judge anyone coz of what they believe, whats annoyed me is that ppl seem 2 assume all muslims twist and mis-intepret the Quran and are all sucide bombers and un peacful people. which isnt a fair assumption

 

[jinsy]

perhaps both christians and non can list some books and resouces that you've come across in your spiritual journeys? i'm now reading Lee Strobel's The Case for a Creator.
http://www.leestrobel.com/

my testimony isn't dramatic yet that's how amazing God works. i still struggle constantly; even more so after becoming a believer.

 

[MissMarley]

anything by Philip Yancey...CS Lewis...Lee Strobel is a great writer..I also appreciate GK Chesterton as well.

 

[MissMarley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli yet from the death of jesus you're meant to recieve salvation, why should god have to sacrifice his "child" for the sins of this world, people are still sinning..

Because people always have and always will sin, since Adam and Eve fell in the Garden. That sacrifice was necessary to erase our sins (past, present, and future) and let us stand before God in salvation. Why should God have to sacrifice His one and only Son? Because that is the only sacrifice big or powerful enough to take away all that sin.

 

[Pushpa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer Indeed. However, I think you would have to agree that the words of the Quran are just as twisted and misconstrued as a means to an end as any other religious text.

well the quran was actually committed to memory for many years before it was ever written down so the quran has never actually been changed from its original text the true quran has never been rewritten in the sense that the bible was meaning the bible has many versions and was comprised by the church...the writings of the quran are believed to be the actual voice of god

now i am not a muslim but i respect the quran and it's teachings very much while i personally believe the words are not the actual words of god i do believe from fact that the words have not been changed over the years


and i have very muched enjoyed reading your posts shimmer they are very well thought out coming from your point of view

 

[NutMeg]

I have to say that while this thread has been borderline nasty at times, I have found it facinating to hear both information about other religions and opinions about those religions. I personally don't believe in any of them, but I think it is a worthwhile experience to learn about the beliefs of others. Thanks for the stimulating discusion(sp?)!

I would also like to ask a question for anyone who would know... And I would like to clearly state that this is not intended to offend, I just would like to know more. What is the difference between God the Father and the Holy Spirit, for those of you who believe in the holy trinity?

 

[Hawkeye]

Hello nutmeg!
To answer your question:
And others believe differently than I do-that trinity-God is essentially the same thing, just with a different "job" description if you will. There really is no official "difference"
It's kind of like water. You have 3 different forms-Liquid, ice, gas yet it is all water, just with different forms.
It's also similar to say, well I hate to put it this way.

God the Father is like the everywhere spirit-the one who flows threw all things. The one who created and makes sure everything runs in order.

God the Holy Spirit-same guy just this is how he talks to you. I mean it would be scary as anything to hear a voice in the sky say-NUTMEG, I saw that! and everyone else hears it too! It's more of a gentle private way of communication.



Jinsey-
that you've come across in your spiritual journeys?
It really depends on your likings. I know personally my favorite spiritual books of ALL TIME and I mean ALL Time are that Frank Peretti.
You're reading a novel yet your being uplifted at the same time:
This present darkness, The Oath, etc.
Max Lucado is really good.
I love reading books about Native American heritage because even though I'm a christian, I can also find very many things wrong with the Christian religion and ideas but they mainly focus on the docterines and the church itself not with the actual faith.

Some of my favorite books are these:
Grandfather by Tom Brown Jr.
The Wind is My Mother-by Bear Heart
The Lakota way, by Wallace Black Elk
Fools Crow
The Gift of Power by Archie Fire Lame Deer
Lame Deer Seeker of Visions-by Lame Deer

Other favorites of mine:
Tao de Ching
The Art of War
And right now some of the Dalai Lama and Confuscious writings.