I Can't Believe Israel Bombed Gaza

[MAC_Whore]

Israel has a no tolerance response to attacks because that is the stance they have been forced to take. Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbors whose clear, violent and public goal is to remove/kill them. Look at Israel's history. It has happened time and time again. How would you react in Israel's place? Would you just keep taking it?

Hamas was CLEARLY aware of what their initial bombing could provoke. They know what Israel's policies and history are, yet they chose to initiate the first strike anyway, at the possible expense of their civilians. What does that say about hamas?

Some are taking issue with what they feel is the disproportionate response of Israel. Perhaps Israel should take a more "gentlemen's" response to this altercation and even out the playing field? No....wait, if both sides were playing by gentlemen's rules, then hamas probably shouldn't executed the first blind strike. Where would that leave both sides? Oh, wait, that would mean that none of this would have happened.

Hamas and hezbollah, let me put it in playground rules: When you run up and kick a kid in the shins, he is going to hit back. Don't cry foul when it hurts. Oh, and ask yourselves, "WWMDD"?

Sure, peace is ideal, but until that time, I can't fault Israel for defending themselves and I can't fault the US for helping them.

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark I think if the Us were truly interested in staying out this, they'd refrain from commenting. I also think placing sanctions and embargoes are a means of policing....

Israel is a US ally that has been attacked. It only makes sense that we would go on the record to show our support. We would do the same thing if someone had attacked France, Thailand or Canada. It is standard US diplomatic practice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark ....Besides the sheer awfulness of what's happening, given that weapons can reach far in the world, we should care what's going on. I don't know how it could involve the US being attacked, but stranger things have happened

You're right. It has happened - Afghanistan. That said, I do not think that Israel can be placed in the same context, as they do not possess the same amount of political and religious elements of instability that Afghanistan did at that time.

 

[concertina]

I truly doubt that *anyone* here is on the 'side' of Hamas. Hamas is only about political gain; they don't care about their population at all.

But for Israel to specifically target universities, schools, markets, government official's homes, not allow food or medicine in to the country...

Israel has lost 10 or so people....more than SIX-HUNDRED AND SEVENTY Palestinians have been killed.

So yes, Hamas kicked Israel in the shins. So Israel turned to Palestine, and disemboweled him in return. Thats a proportionate response...right?

 

[rosasola1]

sadly this will not end until it has run its full course. I don't care if you believe it or not, but this has been spelled out in the bible for forever...... all the prophecies are just starting to come to pass.... Things will only begin getting worse before they get Any better.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina I truly doubt that *anyone* here is on the 'side' of Hamas. Hamas is only about political gain; they don't care about their population at all. But for Israel to specifically target universities, schools, markets, government official's homes, not allow food or medicine in to the country... Israel has lost 10 or so people....more than SIX-HUNDRED AND SEVENTY Palestinians have been killed. So yes, Hamas kicked Israel in the shins. So Israel turned to Palestine, and disemboweled him in return. Thats a proportionate response...right?

Well, the Palestinian people actually elected Hamas in democratic elections, but Israel refuses to deal with them.

There's an excellent article by an Oxford professor who once served in the Israeli army that breaks down my opinions about what's going on at The Guardian online: Avi Shlaim: How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe | World news | The Guardian

Some key points he gives:

"Like other radical movements, Hamas began to moderate its political programme following its rise to power. From the ideological rejectionism of its charter, it began to move towards pragmatic accommodation of a two-state solution. In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel. Israel, however, refused to negotiate with a government that included Hamas.

It continued to play the old game of divide and rule between rival Palestinian factions. In the late 1980s, Israel had supported the nascent Hamas in order to weaken Fatah, the secular nationalist movement led by Yasser Arafat. Now Israel began to encourage the corrupt and pliant Fatah leaders to overthrow their religious political rivals and recapture power. Aggressive American neoconservatives participated in the sinister plot to instigate a Palestinian civil war. Their meddling was a major factor in the collapse of the national unity government and in driving Hamas to seize power in Gaza in June 2007 to pre-empt a Fatah coup.

The war unleashed by Israel on Gaza on 27 December was the culmination of a series of clashes and confrontations with the Hamas government. In a broader sense, however, it is a war between Israel and the Palestinian people, because the people had elected the party to power. The declared aim of the war is to weaken Hamas and to intensify the pressure until its leaders agree to a new ceasefire on Israel's terms. The undeclared aim is to ensure that the Palestinians in Gaza are seen by the world simply as a humanitarian problem and thus to derail their struggle for independence and statehood."
​

The entire article is very well written, but most of all, it highlights why Israel is very wrong in what it's doing. The Palestinians deserve a homeland, and they deserve independence. Without that, there is absolutely no way the violence will stop.

PS - Hey everyone! It's been a while since I posted - nice to see folk!

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina .....So yes, Hamas kicked Israel in the shins. So Israel turned to Palestine, and disemboweled him in return. Thats a proportionate response...right?

Why must it be proportionate? It is as simple as action and reaction.

 

[Shoegal-fr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore Israel has a no tolerance response to attacks because that is the stance they have been forced to take. Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbors whose clear, violent and public goal is to remove/kill them. Look at Israel's history. It has happened time and time again. How would you react in Israel's place? Would you just keep taking it? Hamas was CLEARLY aware of what their initial bombing could provoke. They know what Israel's policies and history are, yet they chose to initiate the first strike anyway, at the possible expense of their civilians. What does that say about hamas? Some are taking issue with what they feel is the disproportionate response of Israel. Perhaps Israel should take a more "gentlemen's" response to this altercation and even out the playing field? No....wait, if both sides were playing by gentlemen's rules, then hamas probably shouldn't executed the first blind strike. Where would that leave both sides? Oh, wait, that would mean that none of this would have happened. Hamas and hezbollah, let me put it in playground rules: When you run up and kick a kid in the shins, he is going to hit back. Don't cry foul when it hurts. Oh, and ask yourselves, "WWMDD"? Sure, peace is ideal, but until that time, I can't fault Israel for defending themselves and I can't fault the US for helping them.

Yeah... sure... except there is no way that we could think according to the "playground rules"... and if you insist on taking this path... i don't know who kicked the other first, but back in the fifties, this could possibly not be Hamas or Palestinians who did that first, yep!

We're talking about war, and no metaphor could be used here!!!

Plus, nobody's doubting the fact that Israel has the right to defend itself... but if the UN, so many countries and pretty much all non profit organizations are condemning what Israel is doing... WELL THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG!!

You mentioned in an another post that USA is Israel's ally, and that it is logical that they support them... Sure, but supporting does not mean accepting the unacceptable!!

 

[Shoegal-fr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore Why must it be proportionate? It is as simple as action and reaction.

WOWZAAAAA I'm so speechless...

I know that you want to defend Israel since you wrote "HaMe'ez Menatzeakh" under your username... But, there are some obvious facts that even some Israelis acknowledge...

 

[MAC_Whore]

Israel is a strong prosperous nation that has been forced to defend itself heartily. If Hamas had the means, they would attack with the same measures of force. Does anyone doubt that? Israel is simply being judged more harshly because they are more prosperous and prepared.

As far as the bombings of schools, etc. Bombing is not and exact science. Yesterday hamas blew up a nursing home in Israel. We can tit for tat this til we turn blue. Both sides will fire rockets. Some will hit appropriate targets, some will not. It doesn't make the mistakes any less horrible. That is war.

It is unfortunate that people on both sides are dying, but again, I have a hard time feeling bad for someone who kicked this whole mess up.

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr WOWZAAAAA I'm so speechless... I know that you want to defend Israel since you wrote "HaMe'ez Menatzeakh" under your username... But, there are some obvious facts that even some Israelis acknowledge...

You know nothing about me. Should I assume you support hamas because you are muslim?

Not all Israelis agree with what Israel does. Not all Palestinians agree with what Palestine does. Not all US citizens agree with the US does. That's just common knowledge and common sense.

Why are you speechless?

 

[Shoegal-fr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore Israel is a strong prosperous nation that has been forced to defend itself heartily. If Hamas had the means, they would attack with the same measures of force. Does anyone doubt that? Israel is simply being judged more harshly because they are more prosperous and prepared. As far as the bombings of schools, etc. Bombing is not and exact science. Yesterday hamas blew up a nursing home in Israel. We can tit for tat this til we turn blue. Both sides will fire rockets. Some will hit appropriate targets, some will not. It doesn't make the mistakes any less horrible. That is war. It is unfortunate that people on both sides are dying, but again, I have a hard time feeling bad for someone who kicked this whole mess up.

First... the problem is, indeed, that Palestinians and Hamas have no means to respond the way Israel does... Since you like metaphors... if you fire at somebody who have no weapons, you might end up in jail.

Secondly, Seriously?? I mean seriously?? It's not an exact science with all of Israel's arsenal? Naaaa

Thirdly, whatever... but that's too bad that you can possibly think that only one side has "kicked this whole mess up"...

 

[caffn8me]

Whatever the rights and wrong of either side, this is desperately sad

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr First... the problem is, indeed, that Palestinians and Hamas have no means to respond the way Israel does... Since you like metaphors... if you fire at somebody who have no weapons, you might end up in jail. Secondly, Seriously?? I mean seriously?? It's not an exact science with all of Israel's arsenal? Naaaa...

If hamas doesn't have the means to defend themselves then why did they choose to start a conflict? Especially when things were relatively quiet. Why did they choose to put the people of Palestine in harms way? It was a stupid, foolish choice. Since we are playing the metaphor/sayings game. Don't go to a gun fight with a rock. They brought this on themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr ...Thirdly, whatever... but that's too bad that you can possibly think that only one side has "kicked this whole mess up"...

In speaking of this particular occurance, yes, I do.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapis The UN has over a HUNDRED resolutions against Israel!!! The US blocks every.single.one!!!! List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yup. Which is why, in 2003, when the US went to the UN bitching and moaning about Iraq not following UN resolutions, everyone outside of the US went "what the fuck are you hypocritical assholes talking about?" This is one of the MOST IGNORED causes for the hatred towards the US by radical Islamists. No one ever discusses it, though. They'd prefer to pretend that they hate us because we're heathens.


Hamas absolutely brought this on themselves. What sucks is that like three Hamas guys are dead and over 600 hundred civilians are the real victims.

 

[kimmy]

anyone remember sixty-five years ago when the japanese attacked us and killed three thousand military men and women, how did we respond? we responded with atom bombs that destroyed entire cities and towns and killed an exorbitant number of civilians.

the japanese underestimated us and they woke a sleeping giant. hamas apparently has underestimated israel and now they're paying the price. don't fuck with someone until you've seen the full extent of their power and resource. it's called sizing up the enemy before the fight and knowing when to just walk away.

 

[Shoegal-fr]

So basically, you're saying that Palestinians should just shut the f*** up while they're suffering from lacking of food, water, electricity, and medecines because of the embargo and while terroritories are literraly stolen by Israelis JUST BECAUSE they have no heavy means to defend themselves and will probably never have...

OMG, i don't know if i have to laugh or cry...


Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore If hamas doesn't have the means to defend themselves then why did they choose to start a conflict? Especially when things were relatively quiet. Why did they choose to put the people of Palestine in harms way? It was a stupid, foolish choice. Since we are playing the metaphor/sayings game. Don't go to a gun fight with a rock. They brought this on themselves. In speaking of this particular occurance, yes, I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimmy anyone remember sixty-five years ago when the japanese attacked us and killed three thousand military men and women, how did we respond? we responded with atom bombs that destroyed entire cities and towns and killed an exorbitant number of civilians. the japanese underestimated us and they woke a sleeping giant. hamas apparently has underestimated israel and now they're paying the price. don't fuck with someone until you've seen the full extent of their power and resource. it's called sizing up the enemy before the fight and knowing when to just walk away.

 

[nunu]

Israel is commiting war crimes in Palestine, i'm sorry but this is the truth.

Killing palestinian prisoners and using a 10 year old boy as a shiled, what the f is that about??

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr So basically, you're saying that Palestinians should just shut the f*** up while they're suffering from lacking of food, water, electricity, and medecines because of the embargo and while terroritories are literraly stolen by Israelis JUST BECAUSE they have no heavy means to defend themselves and will probably never have... OMG, i don't know if i have to laugh or cry...

No one said they should shut up. By all means, they should do the opposite. They need to talk and explore avenues of diplomacy. They should not have resorted to violence and extreme rhetoric. That is what is causing this current situation with Israel and their situation with the embargoes. The Palestinian people are suffering from these actions. I don't think that hamas acted in the best interest of its people and they are the ones paying for it. It's sickening. I don't understand what appears to be this self-defeating peer pressure to follow hamas when they just do nothing but hurt the citizenry of Palestine.

Again, why does it keep coming up that they have no means to defend themselves? It just proves the point of the foolish choice to attack. If they don't, then why did they put themselves at risk?

 

[Shoegal-fr]

I can't reply to that, it's too biased.

There are some obvious facts that you are completely occulting. From your point of view, it's all Hamas/Palestinians fault and that is non sense. This whole situation could not, by no means, be seen from a black and white point of view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore No one said they should shut up. By all means, they should do the opposite. They need to talk and explore avenues of diplomacy. They should not have resorted to violence and extreme rhetoric. That is what is causing this current situation with Israel and their situation with the embargoes. The Palestinian people are suffering from these actions. I don't think that hamas acted in the best interest of its people and they are the ones paying for it. It's sickening. I don't understand what appears to be this self-defeating peer pressure to follow hamas when they just do nothing but hurt the citizenry of Palestine. Again, why does it keep coming up that they have no means to defend themselves? It just proves the point of the foolish choice to attack. If they don't, then why did they put themselves at risk?

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr I can't reply to that, it's too biased...

Your call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr .......There are some obvious facts that you are completely occulting. From your point of view, it's all Hamas/Palestinians fault and that is non sense. This whole situation could not, by no means, be seen from a black and white point of view.

You are absolutely correct. It isn't black and white. It is very complex. In it's entirety, this conflict is not all Palestine's fault. By no means. However, I will again say that in this particular instance, hamas did something very stupid and innocent Palestinians and Israelis are paying the price.

It was stupid of them to start a fight during relatively peaceful times. It does not show a commitment to finding a peaceful solution. It shows the mentality of a chest-pounding thug.

It was stupid of them to start a fight they were not capable of fighting and then complain about the reprecussions.

It was stupid of them to put hundreds of Palestinians in harms way. It shows that they truly do not care about the Palestinian people. And people are calling the Israelis criminals? Please. Look inside your own borders.