I Can't Believe Israel Bombed Gaza

[Shoegal-fr]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore Your call. You are absolutely correct. It isn't black and white. It is very complex. In it's entirety, this conflict is not all Palestine's fault. By no means. However, I will again say that in this particular instance, hamas did something very stupid and innocent Palestinians and Israelis are paying the price. It was stupid of them to start a fight during relatively peaceful times. It does not show a commitment to finding a peaceful solution. It shows the mentality of a chest-pounding thug. It was stupid of them to start a fight they were not capable of fighting and then complain about the reprecussions. It was stupid of them to put hundreds of Palestinians in harms way. It shows that they truly do not care about the Palestinian people. And people are calling the Israelis criminals? Please. Look inside your own borders.

Well, everything's fine inside my own borders

Nobody said Hamas was caring about Palestinians, i dare you to find that in this thread! And nobody has said that what Hamas has done was right neither, everybody's talking about how unfair and disproportionnate Israel's answer is... that's it.

And please. Come on, don't try to make it seems like Israel is the one who cares about Israelis, or the "free world", or Palestinians condition, you're not fooling anyone.

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by florabundance fair enough. but bombing, deliberately, at the time that children are leaving school is not defence.......

I don't think that is a fact/intent that we could ever know for sure. Whether it be Israel or Palestine doing the bombing. There are too many variables.

 

[concertina]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore Why must it be proportionate? It is as simple as action and reaction.

Because our civilization is founded on proportionate responses. By your count, if I'm driving on a highway, and a certain car keeps cutting in front of me suddenly, causing me to slam on my breaks, become terrified, my heart becomes elevated, perhaps people in my car get whiplash...by your count, it would be perfectly reasonable for me to pull out a gun and murder everyone in that other person's car.

In fact, maybe not just that other persons car. Maybe every car on the highway.

Because it doesn't have to be proportionate; its just simple action and reaction.

Israel is attacking Red Cross and other aide organization's convoy's. The Red Cross, the UN; both have pulled aid workers out of Gaza. The UN passed a resolution against Israel yet AGAIN last night.

Just about everyone in the world can see this for what it is. But, as always, America will stick up for its buddy to a fault. No matter how many people get killed in the process.

Body Count: Palestinians: 750 Israelis: 12

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr Well, everything's fine inside my own borders ....

And mine as well. We are very fortunate. I believe the Palestinian people need to speak up and make a change within their borders.

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Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr ....Nobody said Hamas was caring about Palestinians, i dare you to find that in this thread! And nobody has said that what Hamas has done was right neither, everybody's talking about how unfair and disproportionnated Israel's answer is... that's it.....

No need for dares.

I realize that no one was saying that hamas cares about the Palestinian people.

I realize that no one said that they feel that Hamas was right.

What I am saying is that a lot of people are very quick to jump on Israel to for defending themselves when under attack, but are willing to ignore the fact that this was 100% completely avoidable and Palestine/Hamas is blame for that.

To again speak to the disproportionate response issue. I don't understand why this concept of "fairness" exists. If we were being fair, then Palestine wouldn't have attacked. The concept of hamas lobbing three bombs so Israel is allowed to lob 3 in retaliation is laughable. That's confusing the conflict with a tennis match. That is asking Israel to play by rules that are not being expected of Palestine.

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Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr ....And please. Come on, don't try to make it seems like Israel is the one who cares about Israelis, or the "free world", or Palestinians condition, you're not fooling anyone.

I'm not trying to fool anyone. I never made these statements. You are making assumptions, so I won't speak to your above statement.

 

[Shoegal-fr]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore What I am saying is that a lot of people are very quick to jump on Israel to for defending themselves when under attack, but are willing to ignore the fact that this was 100% completely avoidable and Palestine/Hamas is blame for that. To again speak to the disproportionate response issue. I don't understand why this concept of "fairness" exists. If we were being fair, then Palestine wouldn't have attacked. The concept of hamas lobbing three bombs so Israel is allowed to lob 3 in retaliation is laughable. That's confusing the conflict with a tennis match. That is asking Israel to play by rules that are not being expected of Palestine.

If everyone is "very quick to jump on Israel to for defending themselves" is, indeed, because what Israel's doing has nothing to do with defense. Defending means neutralizing the attack, but definitely not destroying everything that happens to be living around the attack.

 

[concertina]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore To again speak to the disproportionate response issue. I don't understand why this concept of "fairness" exists. If we were being fair, then Palestine wouldn't have attacked. The concept of hamas lobbing three bombs so Israel is allowed to lob 3 in retaliation is laughable. That's confusing the conflict with a tennis match. That is asking Israel to play by rules that are not being expected of Palestine.

What would be fair would be Palestinians being allowed to live on their family land, or at least be compensated for it. Have true rule of their own country. To not be controlled and policed and governed by Israel.

So until then, like people have throughout time, they will elect officials that have a strong stance and that can muster strength to throw off their 'oppressors'.

Is it 'right'? No. Is it understandable? Absolutely.

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by concertina Because our civilization is founded on proportionate responses. By your count, if I'm driving on a highway, and a certain car keeps cutting in front of me suddenly, causing me to slam on my breaks, become terrified, my heart becomes elevated, perhaps people in my car get whiplash...by your count, it would be perfectly reasonable for me to pull out a gun and murder everyone in that other person's car. In fact, maybe not just that other persons car. Maybe every car on the highway. Because it doesn't have to be proportionate; its just simple action and reaction. ....

This is comparing apples to oranges. A regulated, civilized society in peacetime is a completely different element than one in war time.

The tactical goal of a war is to be the most intelligent and the most powerful. Therefore you overpower your enemy or threat (whichever applies). That is how wars are won. That is how often conflicts are ended.

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Originally Posted by concertina ...Israel is attacking Red Cross and other aide organization's convoy's. The Red Cross, the UN; both have pulled aid workers out of Gaza. The UN passed a resolution against Israel yet AGAIN last night.

I seriously hope the Palestinian people do get what they need. I also seriously hope they stop periodically using shipments of food supplies as a means to smuggle weapons into the country. That doesn't help their cause.

If Israel is indeed attacking legitimate aid convoys, I hope they are punished accordingly. Just like I hope Hamas quits sending suicide bombers into Israel to kill innocent people.

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Originally Posted by concertina ...Just about everyone in the world can see this for what it is. But, as always, America will stick up for its buddy to a fault. No matter how many people get killed in the process....

Then we need to speak up and make a change. Oh, we just did. The job starts 20 Jan.

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Originally Posted by concertina Body Count: Palestinians: 750 Israelis: 12

Palestine obviously needs to make some changes within their gov't.

People can fault the US if they choose (isn't democracy grand), and I'm not saying that the US does not make critical mistakes, but ultimately a government that allows this in the streets as a representation of their gov't is more worrisome.

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr If everyone is "very quick to jump on Israel to for defending themselves" is, indeed, because what Israel's doing has nothing to do with defense. Defending means neutralizing the attack, but definitely not destroying everything that happens to be living around the attack.

I guess I would then ask why must it just be defense? Why can it not be a more powerful message that would serve to dissuade Palestine from doing this again?

 

[Shoegal-fr]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore I guess I would then ask why must it just be defense? Why can it not be a more powerful message that would serve to dissuade Palestine from doing this again?

Because it's not Palestine that is attacking but the HAMAS!!!! Jesus!!!!!

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by concertina What would be fair would be Palestinians being allowed to live on their family land, or at least be compensated for it. Have true rule of their own country. To not be controlled and policed and governed by Israel.....

This too was avoidable. The Six Days War forced Israel into action.

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr Because it's not Palestine that is attacking but the HAMAS!!!! Jesus!!!!!

Who governs Palestine? Hamas!!!!

 

[Shoegal-fr]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore Who governs Palestine? Hamas!!!!

Yeah, sure. But who shot the rockets? Definitely not the babies and wounded people in the hospitals, not the students in schools, and certainly not the UN workers... so there's no need for "a more powerful message" in order to prevent them from doing again something that they have never done!

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr Yeah, sure. But who shot the rockets?...

OK, so you agree. So who shot the rockets? Hamas, therefore Palestine.

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Originally Posted by Shoegal-fr ...Definitely not the babies and wounded people in the hospitals, not the students in schools, and certainly not the UN workers...

That is collateral damage as a result of one of Hamas's/Palestine's careless decisions. Perhaps next time they will think twice before initiating an act of war that will possibly lead to the death of their nation's babies and visiting aide workers.

 

[kimmy]

israel, as a nation, has handled many problems diplomatically...perhaps hamas should have tried that route before they started carrying out acts of terrorism.

hamas fucked up, bottom line.

 

[nunu]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore I don't think that is a fact/intent that we could ever know for sure. Whether it be Israel or Palestine doing the bombing. There are too many variables.

I'm sorry if this comes off rude that is not my intention, but are you serious?? In the news their was footage of Israeli soldiers showing a reporter and explaining to him that in this area there are a few schools that WE asked the civilians to stay in to be safe while we fight Gaza. They chose to bomb it a couple hours later. But that's nothing new, hey?

I was flipping through the CNN, BBC and a couple of arabic channels, i never got this media biased thing ever but i got it yesterday when i saw what kind of picture the CNN and BBC are portraying to their public. I think the protests that are happening all over the world explains the matter clearly.

How can you (and this is not directed to you) explain 800 civilians dying in 15 days?? Not to mention quarter of that are children.

 

[nunu]

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Originally Posted by kimmy israel, as a nation, has handled many problems diplomatically...perhaps hamas should have tried that route before they started carrying out acts of terrorism. hamas fucked up, bottom line.

That's extremely offensive.

Like giving young children explosive dolls isn't an act of terrorism.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore I don't understand what appears to be this self-defeating peer pressure to follow hamas when they just do nothing but hurt the citizenry of Palestine

People follow Hamas because it is more than an terrorist organization. It's an organization with a terrorist wing. Hamas provides more than 90% (not sure the exact figure - 93?) of the social services and infrastructure to the Palestinians, many of whom are relegated to refugee camps. In a situation that many of these people are in, when they are being driven from their homes by illegal Israeli settlers (who let's not forget have Israeli gov't backing), they latch on to whatever they can, which unfortunately is Hamas.

It it right that they back Hamas? Probably not. Do they have much of a choice? No.

If anything, this Israeli endeavour has done little more than kill a crapload of innocent people and enrage a WHOLE lot more

 

[nunu]

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Originally Posted by MAC_Whore Again, why does it keep coming up that they have no means to defend themselves? It just proves the point of the foolish choice to attack. If they don't, then why did they put themselves at risk?

Because they want freedom, peace and security. They want their loved ones back from jail. They want their rights in living in this country.
They want dependence. They want to grow as a country and not go backwards.

They want to have a right to visit their families in neighbouring cities. Is that too much to ask for?

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by nunu Because they want freedom, peace and security. They want their loved ones back from jail. They want their rights in living in this country. They want dependence. They want to grow as a country and not go backwards. They want to have a right to visit their families in neighbouring cities. Is that too much to ask for?

I'll assume you meant to say independence.

I can completely appreciate that. It's just that they made a foolish choice in this instance as to how they went about acheving that goal. Their choice to attack Israel sent them backwards in this instance. It was avoidable.

 

[MAC_Whore]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* People follow Hamas because it is more than an terrorist organization. It's an organization with a terrorist wing. Hamas provides more than 90% (not sure the exact figure - 93?) of the social services and infrastructure to the Palestinians, many of whom are relegated to refugee camps. In a situation that many of these people are in, when they are being driven from their homes by illegal Israeli settlers (who let's not forget have Israeli gov't backing), they latch on to whatever they can, which unfortunately is Hamas. It it right that they back Hamas? Probably not. Do they have much of a choice? No. If anything, this Israeli endeavour has done little more than kill a crapload of innocent people and enrage a WHOLE lot more

It's a horrible situation. No doubt about it.