Femme Noir
Well-known member
it's not only makeup... it's a business too. I'll just have to turn my cheek cause i won't stray from my mac products.
Makeup artist against MAC/ MAC pushing independant artists out of the industry
- Thread starter shygirl
- Start date
Wattage
Well-known member
After reading that, it made me think a lot about the MAs and what they are saying. I don't know if many of you have seen the documentary "The Corporation", but essentially this video makes many good points about the purpose and direction of corporations.
In all honesty, I feel for the MAs, but at the same time I acknowledge EL's rights to do as they please with their company. The bottom line is money, and they want to make it - a lot of it. They aren't going to make loads of cash selling exclusively to MAs, so they brought the brand into the consumer market. Yes, they are dominating shows and bringing in their staff. The MAs are upset because they are on the receiving end of the EL giant. If it were the other way around, I highly doubt the MAs would have a whole lot of apathy for a makeup brand on the rocks.
I find it funny that they refuse to acknowledge other contributing factors, such as the fashion industry's acceptance of MAC's offers. Then too, would you not say, the fashion industries are equally responsible for this issue? Part of being an artist is being fluid and going with trends - because that's what their industry is all about. This is a trend, and this too will pass. In my opinion, smart people don't sit around and whine about it, they find a way to make it work for them and change it by being proactive - not reactive.
Maybe there isn't a place for the freelance artist right now where MAC has taken over at fashion week and what not. It will pass, MAC is capitalizing on a trend. I don't think it's anything personal, but rather a service being offered in response to a required market niche - principles of supply and demand.
I, as a consumer, like MAC because of the face and name they are very willing to put to AIDS. Maybe if some of these MA's really realized the looming global devastation of HIV and AIDS, they wouldn't be complaining so much. Second, MAC is responsible to the environment through B2M. I am a true humanitarian and environmentalist at heart. MAC really gets me where it counts.
Call me insensitive, fine. But those who wish to live in a free market, capital based society and enjoy all the finer things it has to offer must be willing to take the bumps in the road that come with such a way of life.
I am proud to support MAC.
In all honesty, I feel for the MAs, but at the same time I acknowledge EL's rights to do as they please with their company. The bottom line is money, and they want to make it - a lot of it. They aren't going to make loads of cash selling exclusively to MAs, so they brought the brand into the consumer market. Yes, they are dominating shows and bringing in their staff. The MAs are upset because they are on the receiving end of the EL giant. If it were the other way around, I highly doubt the MAs would have a whole lot of apathy for a makeup brand on the rocks.
I find it funny that they refuse to acknowledge other contributing factors, such as the fashion industry's acceptance of MAC's offers. Then too, would you not say, the fashion industries are equally responsible for this issue? Part of being an artist is being fluid and going with trends - because that's what their industry is all about. This is a trend, and this too will pass. In my opinion, smart people don't sit around and whine about it, they find a way to make it work for them and change it by being proactive - not reactive.
Maybe there isn't a place for the freelance artist right now where MAC has taken over at fashion week and what not. It will pass, MAC is capitalizing on a trend. I don't think it's anything personal, but rather a service being offered in response to a required market niche - principles of supply and demand.
I, as a consumer, like MAC because of the face and name they are very willing to put to AIDS. Maybe if some of these MA's really realized the looming global devastation of HIV and AIDS, they wouldn't be complaining so much. Second, MAC is responsible to the environment through B2M. I am a true humanitarian and environmentalist at heart. MAC really gets me where it counts.
Call me insensitive, fine. But those who wish to live in a free market, capital based society and enjoy all the finer things it has to offer must be willing to take the bumps in the road that come with such a way of life.
I am proud to support MAC.
Femme Noir
Well-known member
WORD TO WATTAGE!!!!
I couldn't have said it better!
I couldn't have said it better!
Juneplum
Well-known member
Quote:
i couldn't have put this better myself.
| Originally Posted by wattage After reading that, it made me think a lot about the MAs and what they are saying. I don't know if many of you have seen the documentary "The Corporation", but essentially this video makes many good points about the purpose and direction of corporations. In all honesty, I feel for the MAs, but at the same time I acknowledge EL's rights to do as they please with their company. The bottom line is money, and they want to make it - a lot of it. They aren't going to make loads of cash selling exclusively to MAs, so they brought the brand into the consumer market. Yes, they are dominating shows and bringing in their staff. The MAs are upset because they are on the receiving end of the EL giant. If it were the other way around, I highly doubt the MAs would have a whole lot of apathy for a makeup brand on the rocks. I find it funny that they refuse to acknowledge other contributing factors, such as the fashion industry's acceptance of MAC's offers. Then too, would you not say, the fashion industries are equally responsible for this issue? Part of being an artist is being fluid and going with trends - because that's what their industry is all about. This is a trend, and this too will pass. In my opinion, smart people don't sit around and whine about it, they find a way to make it work for them and change it by being proactive - not reactive. Maybe there isn't a place for the freelance artist right now where MAC has taken over at fashion week and what not. It will pass, MAC is capitalizing on a trend. I don't think it's anything personal, but rather a service being offered in response to a required market niche - principles of supply and demand. I, as a consumer, like MAC because of the face and name they are very willing to put to AIDS. Maybe if some of these MA's really realized the looming global devastation of HIV and AIDS, they wouldn't be complaining so much. Second, MAC is responsible to the environment through B2M. I am a true humanitarian and environmentalist at heart. MAC really gets me where it counts. Call me insensitive, fine. But those who wish to live in a free market, capital based society and enjoy all the finer things it has to offer must be willing to take the bumps in the road that come with such a way of life. I am proud to support MAC. |
mspixieears
Well-known member
Wattage, you're so damn eloquent it hurts me!
I find it hard to disagree with a lot of what you've written, but for the sake of intelligent argument/debate, but will point out one thing that may not change regardless of trend and so forth and that is the minimum wage aspect some of the freelancers brought up.
If the freelancers really are serious about MAC having drastically altered this, then despite all that MAC does for others in terms of their environmentally friendly policies and HIV/AIDS support (which is traditionally looked upon as a very 'untrendy' cause to support, so further kudos to them), it - or rather EL - has shown that it can be inhumane in aspects. As can the fashion industry, by adopting their services (as wattage rightly pointed out).
Working in our currently capitalist, democratic society should mean that you have a right to expect a certain standard of pay in your industry, and that it is protected to a certain degree (by unions etc.). Again, at the risk of sounding like a Marxist, but aren't these the sorts of things that people fought for at the beginning of the 20th century?
I'm really pleased on one hand that MAC's products are made in countries that generally is not driven by slave trade labour (I assume this perhaps? e.g. Canada, Germany, Italy and so on), but if it is forcing its competitors in its field, who don't necessarily have the opportunity to belong to a massive corporation or conglomerate like EL, to offer services for less than what they expect to earn then in some ways it is nurturing a slave trade labour-like attitude within its so-called democratic/capitalist society.
I don't necessarily agree with all the of the concerns of the freelancers, but I am concerned about their survival, as someone who hopes to make a living from the arts one day. I'm worried that their problem is bigger than them accepting very healthy competition and rising above that through their own initiative. Perhaps at present there is no place for the freelance MA to work in fashion shows, but should they want to join the model that defeated them (e.g. MAC/EL), there aren't an infinite amount of people that can be employed.
So personally speaking, I'm a bit worried about the plight of freelancers and what this could mean for many in the broader arts, despite EL's innovative drive to succeed which they are entitled to. Hopefully this explains a bit better why I'm a bit torn on this issue.
It's such a complicated, multi-faceted issue! I mean, where does it stop? Technically, freelancers to take their boycott to such a level where they could actually obliterate the industry they work for! e.g. boycotting MAC, boycotting fashion brands that support MAC, then boycotting private clients that use either MAC or wear clothing from said fashion houses and so on and so forth...you could actually get to a stage where you should...boycott everything!!! We have to draw a line somewhere. Damned if I know where that line is
I find it hard to disagree with a lot of what you've written, but for the sake of intelligent argument/debate, but will point out one thing that may not change regardless of trend and so forth and that is the minimum wage aspect some of the freelancers brought up.
If the freelancers really are serious about MAC having drastically altered this, then despite all that MAC does for others in terms of their environmentally friendly policies and HIV/AIDS support (which is traditionally looked upon as a very 'untrendy' cause to support, so further kudos to them), it - or rather EL - has shown that it can be inhumane in aspects. As can the fashion industry, by adopting their services (as wattage rightly pointed out).
Working in our currently capitalist, democratic society should mean that you have a right to expect a certain standard of pay in your industry, and that it is protected to a certain degree (by unions etc.). Again, at the risk of sounding like a Marxist, but aren't these the sorts of things that people fought for at the beginning of the 20th century?
I'm really pleased on one hand that MAC's products are made in countries that generally is not driven by slave trade labour (I assume this perhaps? e.g. Canada, Germany, Italy and so on), but if it is forcing its competitors in its field, who don't necessarily have the opportunity to belong to a massive corporation or conglomerate like EL, to offer services for less than what they expect to earn then in some ways it is nurturing a slave trade labour-like attitude within its so-called democratic/capitalist society.
I don't necessarily agree with all the of the concerns of the freelancers, but I am concerned about their survival, as someone who hopes to make a living from the arts one day. I'm worried that their problem is bigger than them accepting very healthy competition and rising above that through their own initiative. Perhaps at present there is no place for the freelance MA to work in fashion shows, but should they want to join the model that defeated them (e.g. MAC/EL), there aren't an infinite amount of people that can be employed.
So personally speaking, I'm a bit worried about the plight of freelancers and what this could mean for many in the broader arts, despite EL's innovative drive to succeed which they are entitled to. Hopefully this explains a bit better why I'm a bit torn on this issue.
It's such a complicated, multi-faceted issue! I mean, where does it stop? Technically, freelancers to take their boycott to such a level where they could actually obliterate the industry they work for! e.g. boycotting MAC, boycotting fashion brands that support MAC, then boycotting private clients that use either MAC or wear clothing from said fashion houses and so on and so forth...you could actually get to a stage where you should...boycott everything!!! We have to draw a line somewhere. Damned if I know where that line is
bebs
Well-known member
I totally agree with you wattage, again couldnt have said it better.
mac hits me where I think it counts, if they stop well then I will re-think buying from them.
I also love make up and artists but we do live in the real world and everybody does this, the lowest bid gets the job from construction jobs to make up its the way the world works and until free market stops there will be nothing to stop it.
mac hits me where I think it counts, if they stop well then I will re-think buying from them.
I also love make up and artists but we do live in the real world and everybody does this, the lowest bid gets the job from construction jobs to make up its the way the world works and until free market stops there will be nothing to stop it.
ladydanger
Well-known member
mac sends out their pro artists ( you can find their profiles on maccosmetics.com) to fashion week along with the HARDWORKING makeup artists ( not just "sales associates") that not only show the talent, but also the dedication to give up their time in order to experience fashion week. the pro artist that keys the show hand picks who will be working along side them during fashion week ( based on talent and capability of handling such a stressful event like fashion week).
user1
New member
I'm not going to get into the whole debate, but I can tell you, as a freelance artist of over 20 years, I helped make MAC what it is today. Yup, that's right. I was in there in the beginning when Frank & Frank were developing this product. Freelancers got this product out into the mainstream. MAC never advertised until their Rupal campaign. WE put it on the map and this is how they repay us.
I tried to excuse their practices for a while but after the N.Y. shows, I took every brand under the E.L. umbrella out of my kit including MAC. I'm not cryin' a river but I refuse to support any company that doesn't support me.
End of story.
I tried to excuse their practices for a while but after the N.Y. shows, I took every brand under the E.L. umbrella out of my kit including MAC. I'm not cryin' a river but I refuse to support any company that doesn't support me.
End of story.
singinmys0ng
Well-known member
Thanks to FemmeNoir (got this from her myspace blog)..I would like to share this with everyone else and see what you all think.
Here is this orginal link :http://blog.kjbennett.com/?p=43
MAC & Estee Lauder Company pulls another fast one »
Boycott MAC Makeup Products
Thanks to the morally bankrupt, maniacally driven steamroller called The Estee Lauder Companies Inc. and their take no prisoners attitude of If you cant Beat Them, Buy Them!
Professional Makeup Artists worldwide are having jobs ripped out from underneath them.
The Estee Lauder Companies (who acquired MAC 4-5 years ago) methodically reduced the professional formulas and quality of the original MAC Makeup products to drugstore levels, rendering them un-usable by professional makeup artists. This was only the beginning of the new, improved money making scams coming from the feverish brains of the Estee Lauder marketing division.
The original MAC, as a courtesy, extended a iscount card (the PPID card) to pro makeup artists, hair stylists and even actors because they understood how expensive our professions were to maintain. Within a year of taking over the company, MAC/Estee Lauder instituted a yearly membership fee that had to be paid before they would renew/replace our PPID discount cards.
PAY for a DISCOUNT? WTF!
As if this wasnt a large enough slap in the face to the community that made them famous
The Estee Lauder Companies/MAC Division has aggressively approached designers, production companies, photographers, advertising agencies, etc. and offered them tons of gratis makeup and free use of their staff makeup artists in exchange for product placement or production credit. They have even gone as far as paying CASH to get their foot in the door of some agencies/companies.
The MUAs (makeup artists) that work for MAC are brainwashed into thinking that they should feel privileged to do this work and it will be important to their career. They are also told that they MUST do these gigs to gain their certification to merit promotions within the MAC organization. These certifications carry absolutely no cache or significance outside of the MAC company (usefulness???). The MAC artists are manipulated into working these high profile jobs for their usual hourly salesperson rate (maybe $16-17) while Pro MUAs would usually book the same jobs for 10x that amount.
The saddest thing is, these poor kids might get a MAC certification, but they usually get no credit (tear sheets, etc) for the actual jobMAC does. Without credit for your work, you get NOWHERE in the real industry. So they, in effect, have been PIMPED OUT BY MAC/ESTEE LAUDER and have taken jobs away from legitimate, professional MUAs.
You, the buying public and other MUAs have to help us out and make your voice heard. Professional MUAs are the people that put MAC on the map, made you covet the products because WE used them and now we are being systematically eliminated by the Estee Lauder Marketing and Promotional juggernaut. They are compromising our means of making a living (paying bills, feeding families) to sell more lipsticks.
Please dont support a company who willingly treats the people that are responsible for their enormous SUCCESS with blatant disrespect and underhanded, deceitful business practices.
Please stop purchasing MAC Makeup Products and help Professional Makeup Artists worldwide continue to work in the industry that we love.
CLICK HERE for a list of great alternatives to MAC products.
Thanks,
KJB
xoxoxo
This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 9th, 2006 at 8:51 am and is filed under WTF?, Liberty & Injustice For All. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Here is this orginal link :http://blog.kjbennett.com/?p=43
MAC & Estee Lauder Company pulls another fast one »
Boycott MAC Makeup Products
Thanks to the morally bankrupt, maniacally driven steamroller called The Estee Lauder Companies Inc. and their take no prisoners attitude of If you cant Beat Them, Buy Them!
Professional Makeup Artists worldwide are having jobs ripped out from underneath them.
The Estee Lauder Companies (who acquired MAC 4-5 years ago) methodically reduced the professional formulas and quality of the original MAC Makeup products to drugstore levels, rendering them un-usable by professional makeup artists. This was only the beginning of the new, improved money making scams coming from the feverish brains of the Estee Lauder marketing division.
The original MAC, as a courtesy, extended a iscount card (the PPID card) to pro makeup artists, hair stylists and even actors because they understood how expensive our professions were to maintain. Within a year of taking over the company, MAC/Estee Lauder instituted a yearly membership fee that had to be paid before they would renew/replace our PPID discount cards.
PAY for a DISCOUNT? WTF!
As if this wasnt a large enough slap in the face to the community that made them famous
The Estee Lauder Companies/MAC Division has aggressively approached designers, production companies, photographers, advertising agencies, etc. and offered them tons of gratis makeup and free use of their staff makeup artists in exchange for product placement or production credit. They have even gone as far as paying CASH to get their foot in the door of some agencies/companies.
The MUAs (makeup artists) that work for MAC are brainwashed into thinking that they should feel privileged to do this work and it will be important to their career. They are also told that they MUST do these gigs to gain their certification to merit promotions within the MAC organization. These certifications carry absolutely no cache or significance outside of the MAC company (usefulness???). The MAC artists are manipulated into working these high profile jobs for their usual hourly salesperson rate (maybe $16-17) while Pro MUAs would usually book the same jobs for 10x that amount.
The saddest thing is, these poor kids might get a MAC certification, but they usually get no credit (tear sheets, etc) for the actual jobMAC does. Without credit for your work, you get NOWHERE in the real industry. So they, in effect, have been PIMPED OUT BY MAC/ESTEE LAUDER and have taken jobs away from legitimate, professional MUAs.
You, the buying public and other MUAs have to help us out and make your voice heard. Professional MUAs are the people that put MAC on the map, made you covet the products because WE used them and now we are being systematically eliminated by the Estee Lauder Marketing and Promotional juggernaut. They are compromising our means of making a living (paying bills, feeding families) to sell more lipsticks.
Please dont support a company who willingly treats the people that are responsible for their enormous SUCCESS with blatant disrespect and underhanded, deceitful business practices.
Please stop purchasing MAC Makeup Products and help Professional Makeup Artists worldwide continue to work in the industry that we love.
CLICK HERE for a list of great alternatives to MAC products.
Thanks,
KJB
xoxoxo
This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 9th, 2006 at 8:51 am and is filed under WTF?, Liberty & Injustice For All. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
midnightlouise
Well-known member
I read something about that on MUA the other day, but I never could track down the original source. Thanks for posting it. Interesting reading to be sure...and it gives you some food for thought....
ladydanger
Well-known member
if people are going to be pointing fingers, point em to shu uemera and smashbox too. it's not fair to blame one company alone. not to mention that there are some makeup artists out there that aren't quite professional ( no formal education or even counter experience) that take jobs away from mac stores. come on now, look at carmindy from "what not to wear" on tlc. weak artist. sorry, but true
Designergirl9
Well-known member
Business is business....I don't see how its the end of the world.
ms.marymac
Well-known member
Right now it feels like the end of the world to them because they have bills to pay and are losing work. It does happen in business all the time but it still doesn't mean the people affected shouldn't feel upset.
maxcat
Well-known member
A bunch of the artists who work retail MAC have freelance gigs that pay them freelance rates on tv shows and film crews. They use the MAC work to stabilize their income, and MAC is in turn flexible with their schedules. The bucks for the pro card were likely to keep people from faking their creds, which are easy to do - they would have had to hire staff to do the cross checking...
As for the training being "worthless" - has he checked out the utter highway robbery charged by these so-called "schools"?
MAC has hugely discounted student kits for accredited schools - but the private schools want these kids to buy the school's product.
It's a catty catty business, this...
And speaking of... I agree on Carmindy, LadyDanger. Spray foundation on EVERYONE. Pink lippies on EVERYONE. Gah.
As for the training being "worthless" - has he checked out the utter highway robbery charged by these so-called "schools"?
MAC has hugely discounted student kits for accredited schools - but the private schools want these kids to buy the school's product.
It's a catty catty business, this...
And speaking of... I agree on Carmindy, LadyDanger. Spray foundation on EVERYONE. Pink lippies on EVERYONE. Gah.
Moyra
Active member
Quote:
In all fairness,it links to a pretty interesting and detailed listing of his fave products, from many different companies, not HIS products.
| Originally Posted by maxcat Yeah... um... maybe I'm among the "brainwashed" here, but did ANYONE ELSE notice that buddy's rant ends with a "click here to find great alternatives to MAC" hyperlink... ...that links to his OWN line of makeup for you to buy? |
In all fairness,it links to a pretty interesting and detailed listing of his fave products, from many different companies, not HIS products.
maxcat
Well-known member
yeah, just noticed that, so changed my post actually as you were writing... (sleep deprived insomniac!) - but after also having a think about a bunch of people that I know do freelance outside of MAC...
you're absolutely right. Hence why I took it down... apologies all...
you're absolutely right. Hence why I took it down... apologies all...
lara
Well-known member
This has been hashed over again and again. I wrote a lengthy paragraph in FemmeNoirs blog, I don't want to type it out all over again.
No one is stopping MAs from voting with their wallets and choosing other brands. If MAC gets too expensive, I take my cash elsewhere. So far the local MAC pro store has been quite supportive of me, and I'm yet to be undercut by them. Take it with a grain of salt.
No one is stopping MAs from voting with their wallets and choosing other brands. If MAC gets too expensive, I take my cash elsewhere. So far the local MAC pro store has been quite supportive of me, and I'm yet to be undercut by them. Take it with a grain of salt.
coachkitten
Well-known member
Who the heck is this guy? Is he a famous MUA?
I was happy to see that below his opinion he allows other people to post theirs. I still really like MAC and although I value his right to speak his mind but he has not changed anything for me.
I was happy to see that below his opinion he allows other people to post theirs. I still really like MAC and although I value his right to speak his mind but he has not changed anything for me.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
Hmmm definately food for thought.
The problem he's ranting and raving about and I do agree with him about the EL being an unreasonable monster(Come on they asked specktra to take down the color swatches and pictures even those that have been out for years) and suddenly everything is being kept secret----i understand about not wanting to keep people from stealing their ideas but something about the whole no speak no hear policy is mighty disturbing-me thinks there maybe trouble for the MAC horizon or at least for the EL horizon-they wouldn't be flipping out for pictures if there wasnt....
anyway back on track (hehe) it is true business is business but at the same time you cant really boycott EL because a lot of company's are owned by EL or L'Oreal.
My suggestion is the same as his, if you feel uncomfortable or whatever take the money elsewhere. People talk but nobody hears it, the moment money starts talking suddenly its all you can hear.
The problem he's ranting and raving about and I do agree with him about the EL being an unreasonable monster(Come on they asked specktra to take down the color swatches and pictures even those that have been out for years) and suddenly everything is being kept secret----i understand about not wanting to keep people from stealing their ideas but something about the whole no speak no hear policy is mighty disturbing-me thinks there maybe trouble for the MAC horizon or at least for the EL horizon-they wouldn't be flipping out for pictures if there wasnt....
anyway back on track (hehe) it is true business is business but at the same time you cant really boycott EL because a lot of company's are owned by EL or L'Oreal.
My suggestion is the same as his, if you feel uncomfortable or whatever take the money elsewhere. People talk but nobody hears it, the moment money starts talking suddenly its all you can hear.
