Middle Eastern Society

[Beauty Mark]

A lot of people are upset by the idea of someone who isn't the same as they are. It's a great way to scare people into being uniform.

I've seen similar mentalities within the gay community, various political communities, and so on.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Beauty Mark I've seen similar mentalities within the gay community, various political communities, and so on.

Interesting choices for examples. Any specific reason?

 

[Macnarsandlove]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Please keepthe tone of the thread civil. This isn't about bashing America. Nor is it about bashing Muslims, Islam, refugees, etc. There's no reason this subject cannot be discussed without the degeneration of the commentary into "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT LEAVE!!!11211`~!!" and "I HATE AMERICA SO BAD I'M SO READY TO GO!!!!" I ask that this be kept on topic.

I apologize, which is something I rarely do if my comments were offensive. I get emotional and defensive when I feel like my country and belief system is being attacked. This country allows the right for everyone to have an opinion and no matter what that is why I love it.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Just the ones I thought up off the top of my head to contrast it.

For instance, I've been told I can't like girls, because I wear makeup and dresses and am so feminine (go figure).

Politcally, I've seen it happen if you don't agree with the party's entire ideology/agree a teensy bit with the opposing side.

I think that issue of not being a true x pops up a lot, like what it is to be a true goth, punk, or some other kind of subculture. With some of the subculture thing, it's kind of disturbing what they think you need to do to be a part of it. Some of it doesn't seem to hurt society or bother people that much, some of it is more important.

 

[GalleyGirl]

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Originally Posted by mena22787 Are all of those Muslim attacks? Nope, none of them are islamic. Are all of the perpetrators Islamic? Nope again, none of them are muslims. Are the majority of them? Nope, they're all just dirtbags. i recommend that you all take a course/read a book on islam to learn about it. i find its principles to be so selfless and 'humanitarianistic.' (this should be a word, it's a good word!) btw, i'm atheist. just an fyi.

I think this goes back to another thread on the same topic, but because the mainstream muslim community doesn't loudly express the kind of outrage at these attacks that would isolate the terrorist loonies as just that - terrorist loonies and not members of a peaceful religion - non-muslims don't feel like these loonies are being condemned by the islamic community, and hence get the idea that they may be either supported or tolerated by it. I think if any kind of understanding is going to occur, there needs to be a greater effort on the Muslim community to reach out and change these perceptions, instead of screaming about the unfairness of profiling at airports and such. And obviously non-muslims have to do their share of the work by being open and listening.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by GalleyGirl I think this goes back to another thread on the same topic, but because the mainstream muslim community doesn't loudly express the kind of outrage at these attacks that would isolate the terrorist loonies as just that - terrorist loonies and not members of a peaceful religion - non-muslims don't feel like these loonies are being condemned by the islamic community, and hence get the idea that they may be either supported or tolerated by it. I think if any kind of understanding is going to occur, there needs to be a greater effort on the Muslim community to reach out and change these perceptions, instead of screaming about the unfairness of profiling at airports and such. And obviously non-muslims have to do their share of the work by being open and listening.

100% yes.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Did you just like cut-n-past this? Because it's your exact same post from b4... As your still not understanding my question I understand the Qur'an isn't supposed to be translated... I understand it's the "exact" word of god. My question was, and still is, since were not all using Qur'an's that were published thousands of years ago, how do modern Qur'an's that were recently pubished in arabic (just to be specific), compare to the, "hand written word for word copy" that mohammad's followers wrote down when he died.

It's always been in Arabic, it's a semetic language and is as old as Hebrew. The Qu'ran is read in Classical Arabic which is comparable to Old English. And also, it was all "put together" around 600-something so it's not as old as the Bible or Torah.

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And even if you think about that, since the Qur'an's teachings were not written down until after Muhammad died, they were written down from the "best memories" of his followers who were around at the time he died.

They were written down by his followers as he said them, others were memorized by his followers.

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Have you ever tried to remember and write down something as a group? People argue over who said what, when they said it, and how they said it. So even if it's stated by the group that it was, "word for word" chances are because the people writing it down were human, that it's more than likeley the, "best idea of what they remembered."

But in Islam no one's arguing over versions of the Qu'ran, at least not like they do about the Bible (King James version, Luther version, Guttenburg, etc..). What happened was after the different followers had written down their verses they were later collected together. The verses do not dispute one another like Gospels do, they are one collected text.
In Islam there is one holy text, one version accepted. However how people interpret them, not translate but think about them, is different.

 

[Shimmer]

The Koran claims to be the ONE TRUE word.
The Bible, the New Testament, claims to be the ONE TRUE word, with the ONE TRUE path.
The Book of Mormon claims to be the most perfect gospel ever written.

How can they all be the "one true" anything...when only ONE of them bears anything remotely resembling the others? (And that's only because Joseph Smith was a copycat...)

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer The Koran claims to be the ONE TRUE word. The Bible, the New Testament, claims to be the ONE TRUE word, with the ONE TRUE path. The Book of Mormon claims to be the most perfect gospel ever written. How can they all be the "one true" anything...when only ONE of them bears anything remotely resembling the others? (And that's only because Joseph Smith was a copycat...)

It's all relative.
Jews have the Torah.
Christians have the Old Testament and New Testament.
Mormons have the book of Mormon.
And Muslims have the Old Testament, Torah, New Testament, and what they beleive is the final word of God, the Qu'ran.

The point is that to Muslims this is the final revelation of God to Mankind to the Prophet Muhammad. Think of it like this, that Judaism and Christianity are both revelations that have not been carried out correctly.

In terms of consistency: The Qu'ran has remained the same text over the past 1700 years. I think the Torah has too. Both languages (Hebrew and Arabic) are semetic and the written Qu'ran is still in Classical Arabic as it would have been when it was first recorded.

Unlike the Bible, it has not had to have been re-written from Aramaic or Hebrew to Latin, German, English, etc.. so also no translation errors have occurred.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Emma_Frost It's all relative. Jews have the Torah. Christians have the Old Testament and New Testament. Mormons have the book of Mormon. And Muslims have the Old Testament, Torah, New Testament, and what they beleive is the final word of God, the Qu'ran. The point is that to Muslims this is the final revelation of God to Mankind through the Prophet Muhammad. Think of it like this: God reveals to Moses, its written down and Judaisim is created. But he screwed it up. God reveals to Jesus, its written down and Christianity is created. But he screwed it up. God reveals to Muhammad, for what God makes sure is the last time, its written down, and Islam is created. And Islam is right. ^.^; yeah, that's kind of blunt and very simplified but you get it. The matter of the Qu'ran is that it's remained the same block of text over the past 1700 years. I think the Torah has too. Both languages (Hebrew and Arabic) are semetic and the written Qu'ran is still in Classical Arabic as it would have been when it was first recorded. Unlike the Bible, it has not had to have been re-written from Aramaic or Hebrew to Latin, German, English, etc.. so also no translation errors have occurred.

Are you kidding?

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Emma_Frost Unlike the Bible, it has not had to have been re-written from Aramaic or Hebrew to Latin, German, English, etc.. so also no translation errors have occurred.

Even versions of the King James Bible change over the years, even though it's all in English... I dont read arabic, but I would be interested in seeing if two Qur'an's published by different people, read exactly the same, word for word, or if they differ slightly from text to text.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Are you kidding?

Fine, I'll edit

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Emma_Frost Fine, I'll edit

what makes you think anyone has carried out the revelations to muhammed correctly?
I'm not following this at all.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer what makes you think anyone has carried out the revelations to muhammed correctly? I'm not following this at all.

I don't. I'm atheist (blaming what I know about the Qu'ran and Islam on my Muslim brothers, 4 years of classes in reading the Qu'ran, and living in an Islamic country).

But it's a matter of faith as to whether or not you beleive in any relgious text. I don't read the Qu'ran or Hadith much anymore because I don't have to so I can't cite specific verses and/or revelations to support what I say.

Um... wasn't this about Middle Eastern Society and not Islam anyways?
Just remember there's also Orthodox Egyptians, Jews, and Catholics who make up a noticeable amount of the Middle East too. Islam is dominant but other religions certainly have a presence and impact.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Emma_Frost Um... wasn't this about Middle Eastern Society and not Islam anyways? Just remember there's also Orthodox Egyptians, Jews, and Catholics who make up a noticeable amount of the Middle East too. Islam is dominant but other religions certainly have a presence and impact.

Very true. However, other than Israel, those other religions tend to be minorities in the countries. Not to mention the governments tend to be biased towards Islam (not a bad thing, just to be clear). And the dominant laws and customs tend to reflect that.

Edit - It's like saying Religion in the United States, to most people, the first thought in the mind is gonig to be christianity. Even though all the religions in the world are found here.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Emma_Frost I don't. I'm atheist (blaming what I know about the Qu'ran and Islam on my Muslim brothers, 4 years of classes in reading the Qu'ran, and living in an Islamic country). But it's a matter of faith as to whether or not you beleive in any relgious text. I don't read the Qu'ran or Hadith much anymore because I don't have to so I can't cite specific verses and/or revelations to support what I say. Um... wasn't this about Middle Eastern Society and not Islam anyways? Just remember there's also Orthodox Egyptians, Jews, and Catholics who make up a noticeable amount of the Middle East too. Islam is dominant but other religions certainly have a presence and impact.

Interesting reading for anyone who might want it.


There's certainly more information, both via google, and via citations on the sites listed that is even more interesting.

 

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by Raerae My question was, and still is, since were not all using Qur'an's that were published thousands of years ago, how do modern Qur'an's that were recently pubished in arabic (just to be specific), compare to the, "hand written word for word copy" that mohammad's followers wrote down when he died. And even if you think about that, since the Qur'an's teachings were not written down until after Muhammad died, they were written down from the "best memories" of his followers who were around at the time he died. Have you ever tried to remember and write down something as a group? People argue over who said what, when they said it, and how they said it. So even if it's stated by the group that it was, "word for word" chances are because the people writing it down were human, that it's more than likeley the, "best idea of what they remembered."

my response to the first paragraph: you'd have to ask a reader/studyer of the qur'an. someone that speaks arabic. most likely, they're almost exactly the same thing.

mohammad's followers memorized word for word what mohammad told them.

you have to remember that this is all what muslims believe, not my beliefs. as for my own beliefs however, i'd have to say that the original teachings of mohammad and all the qur'ans today are probably almost exactly the same. i truly believe that the words havn't changed much throughout time. people's interpretations certainly have, but again, that would have to do with interpretation of hadith, which is NOT the same at all as the qur'an.

 

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer No, they're not, but I used the slapping analogy because it's an attack of violence. If a group of people is violent to you over and over again, you learn to distrust that group of people. Simply put. There are Muslims, Christians, Jews, Mormons, and Scientologists would would argue vehemently that their ideas of "God" are all quite different from one another. They are the same thing, with one difference: there's not a repeated and wholly patterned theme of Waco TX massacres. There's not a pattern of Mormons acting as suicide bombers. Nor is there a pattern of Baptists attacking market places. The pattern is the difference. The consistent and seemingly never ending pattern of Muslim (or "muslim") attacks on civilians and military. That's the difference. Yes, they are islamic/muslim/dirtbags. Try telling Osama Bin Laden "You, sir, are no Muslim!!!", try telling that to ANY of them. Tell ANY of the followers of any regime claiming to be of Islamic faith that they're infidels. See how far it gets you.

1st paragraph: true. but it's so incredibly unfair. and this type of thinking leads to stereotypes and ppl being distrustful of all muslims for no reason.

2nd para: according to islam, all three people of the book religions (islam, christianity, judaism) share the same god. since islam is the newest of the three, christianity and judaism don't have anything in their religions books that address the concept of god in islam. and of course *some* ppl of all those religions you said would say that their gods are all different, but they're wrong. any person who studies the religions would tell you that they're the same god.

ya, their ideas of god are different from each other b/c they all describe him/it/w/e differently. but they're still all the same god.

3rd para: it's true waco was an isolated incident and that these suicide bombers arn't singular events. but i was arguing that these suicide bombers arn't true muslims, which you seem to not wholly believe due to you writing "Muslim (or "muslim") attacks"

and as for your last comment:

"Yes, they are islamic/muslim/dirtbags."

why can't you understand that these suicide bombers, etc. are NOT muslims??? don't you understand that muslims preach tolerance and peace??? this last comment is absolutely infuriating.

and as for telling bin laden that he's not muslim, i would if i got the chance. HE wouldn't believe that, but that's b/c he thinks he's doing all the things he does b/c it's his islamic duty. he's wrong!!!

 

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by Raerae I always found that to be an interesting part of religion. If you dont believe my specific views, your not a "true _______ <----- Insert religion here." Pretty common across all religions.

true. but it's def. not the majority of said religion to blow off ppl from other sects of their religion. i'm pretty sure if you told a normal protestant that you're catholic, they're not ganna tell you you're not a real christian. again, i said the normal person. there are always exceptions.

 

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by GalleyGirl I think this goes back to another thread on the same topic, but because the mainstream muslim community doesn't loudly express the kind of outrage at these attacks that would isolate the terrorist loonies as just that - terrorist loonies and not members of a peaceful religion - non-muslims don't feel like these loonies are being condemned by the islamic community, and hence get the idea that they may be either supported or tolerated by it. I think if any kind of understanding is going to occur, there needs to be a greater effort on the Muslim community to reach out and change these perceptions, instead of screaming about the unfairness of profiling at airports and such. And obviously non-muslims have to do their share of the work by being open and listening.

oh dear, more american media here to blame. are you sure that muslim communities don't speak out against these attacks? or are you just assuming that b/c media doesn't show you that??

muslims in the US and the ME, both loudly express their outrage and anger of terrorist attacks and do not tolerate such things. their religion teaches peace, so why would they condone such things?

why should only muslim communities reach out and change other's perceptions of muslims? seems to me like it would make them seem guilty. everyone should help change these perceptions. and i wasn't aware that the whole muslim community was screaming about the unfairness of profiling at airports.