Pondering Racial Connotations of "Lightful"

[aziza]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer RACISM matters, when it's really happening. Racism, in expecting people of different races to live substandard lives, and in treating people of different races badly, should definitely be talked about. But the little stuff? The stuff that's (in my eyes at least) inconsequential or not even really racist? That all detracts from real racism when it happens...kind of like the boy who cries wolf.

But who's to say if it's really happening? I guess it's all about perspective. In our day and age we don't often see blatant acts of racism ... laws have been passed to reign in actions like cross-burning etc. Now we're dealing with the ghosts of this country's past. It's attitudes and perceptions that need to be changed now.

Yes I do agree that we shouldn't nitpick at every little collection but when valid arguments are brought up (like Me220's) we should at least give her a chance to speak her piece.

 

[aziza]

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Originally Posted by Beauty Mark I thought Deep Thoughts was supposed to be about discussing issues in a frank manner without worrying about stepping on someone else's toes. Of course, don't be a jerk and write racist/sexist/homophobic/prejudiced things for the hell of it, but if you have a honest question to ask, you shouldn't be afraid to ask it.

If it is then that's cool

I just don't get that impression sometimes. Anyway ya'll have given me a serious mental workout for the day

Off to the mall I go......

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumtingSweet But who's to say if it's really happening? I guess it's all about perspective. In our day and age we don't often see blatant acts of racism ... laws have been passed to reign in actions like cross-burning etc. Now we're dealing with the ghosts of this country's past. It's attitudes and perceptions that need to be changed now. Yes I do agree that we shouldn't nitpick at every little collection but when valid arguments are brought up (like Me220's) we should at least give her a chance to speak her piece.

And, it's been pointed out, that had the argument been presented in a more clear manner, it probably wouldn't have taken the life it has. :/

The idea of conforming to a standard of beauty applies to ALL races, not just WoC.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumtingSweet If it is than that's cool I just don't get that impression sometimes.

Someone (trunkmonkey I think) pointed out that when opinions are thrown out, someone's going to be offended, and it's going to fall on the person who spoke the opinion to either defend it or recind it.
The problem is that defense of the opinion causes more disharmony, and being forced to recind it isn't fair.

 

[Trunkmonkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye And for a breath moment to just calm down- I bring back the kitty kat......... and my super hero because this is how I feel some people are these days

*releases Trex on Captain and the kitty

 

[Beauty Mark]

I definitely agree racism occurs on a more subtle level. However, with big name corporations, a lot of thought normally goes into naming products and the ad campaign. I don't think MAC was aiming to have white=the ideal. I'm not advocating the concept of being "colorblind" but I saw the model and saw flawless skin. Considering that MAC prides itself on being ethnically diverse, I don't think they were aiming for making a statement on whiteness.

The ad would've been much more offensive if they took a darker woman and made her look pale. My South Asian friends were quite offended by the Loreal ads with the Indian actress, the ones that, according to them, erased her ethnicity. I don't know what that woman looks like outside the ads, but I have to admit that I thought she was white when I saw them.

Quote:

If it is than that's cool I just don't get that impression sometimes. Anyway ya'll have given me a serious mental workout for the day Off to the mall I go......

I think it's easy to not see it, because everyone has some strong opinions. I used to feel like that, but then I realized that they're just stating their opinion like I'm stating mine.

 

[VeronikaJ]

Can we just close this thread for discussion? I feel it's become VERY off-topic and many people have offended others (some not on purpose) and it's not going to get us anywhere. Just a suggestion.

 

[aziza]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Someone (trunkmonkey I think) pointed out that when opinions are thrown out, someone's going to be offended, and it's going to fall on the person who spoke the opinion to either defend it or recind it. The problem is that defense of the opinion causes more disharmony, and being forced to recind it isn't fair.

I see what you're saying. And I'm still not at the mall lol.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye And for a breath moment to just calm down- I bring back the kitty kat.........

Screw your stoned kitty! *watches kitty dig into King Size bag of Cheetos*

I think it's time to

 

[Shimmer]

I dont' see a reason to close it...Though there have been (and likely will be) heated moments within the thread, the opinions being offered are still valuable.

 

[macslut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye how in the hell did the KKK get into this discussion. First things first: The topic is regarding makeup industry and MAC's color story that could have a racist undertone. With racist meaning: Why do they not have more black models than usual- and what is the perception of beauty in the U.S. HOW does the KKK fit into this? Simply put- it doesn't. Now we're just dragging more crap into this. lets keep it on the beauty industry topic and not give the KKK any free advertisements!

It was in response to a story that AR told about her father. I was interested in where it happened and because she (and I assuming she..please correct me if I am in error) mentioned white hoods, I wanted to know if it was the KKK or some other idiot group. That's all.:chillpill:

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumtingSweet Yes I do agree that we shouldn't nitpick at every little collection but when valid arguments are brought up (like Me220's) we should at least give her a chance to speak her piece.

That's just it though, she DID speak her piece. Lots of people thought her point was invalid (or done to death on this particular subject) and added that to the conversation. Just because many people didn't agree with her didn't mean she DIDN'T get to speak her piece. If Shimmer had come in and said, "This topic is closed and I am deleting it" then I think you could argue that she'd didn't get to speak her piece. Just because the reaction wasn't what she may have wanted doesn't negate that she said it and no one censored her over it.

 

[bsquared]

I won't add my two cents about the INITIAL subject of this post because clearly it would get lost in the shuffle of this "discussion" that, unfortunately, I've had to witness before. Issues like race are difficult to tackle without causing offense to someone, everyone wants to be right, act like they walk around with blinders on, or yell wolf at every turn. As a black woman, I find myself very sensitive to issues involving race or skin color that I encounter (which I do, every single day and I don't need anyone to validate me or agree, it's my life and I'm quite clear about its many facets). I'm sorry, I can't help it. I didn't invent the hate that's been spewed at me from both external and internal factors, I have reason to be suspicious if I please. You don't think that's okay, hey, fine by me. PM me if you want to discuss it in further detail.

With that being said, if someone wants to mention how they felt (or open up a discussion about how others feel) about something they've seen or read that may cause offense, I feel as though they have every right too. And if you disagree, you have every right to disagree. But please, ladies (and the gentlemen that I know are reading this forum but have remained silent) remember to respect each other and each others opinions. Cyberbickering is not pretty and no MAC makeup can cover it up. I'm so surprised at what I've read here and I'm going to try my best to see the "light" beneath these dark and spiteful comments.

PS dead horse,

? I'll have to disgaree, I feel like that stallion is alive and well. But, that's just me. I'm tired of talking about race too, but just because we stop talking about it doesn't mean that it'll cease to exist.

 

[Shimmer]

Excellent point,

Thank you.

 

[*Stargazer*]

b squared, I'd like to point out that it is almost impossible to read your post in that font color. Just a heads up.

 

[bsquared]

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Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 b squared, I'd like to point out that it is almost impossible to read your post in that font color. Just a heads up.

oooops! lol, I did it in the little quick post thingamajiggy and just goofed on the color . . . now where is that edit button? lol

 

[visivo]

In response to the original, completely valid question, I have a few thoughts...

I think that the issue that seems more inflammatory is the pushing of skin lighteners (literally bleaches) that are marketed in other countries... and despite having a mostly "to each her own" attitude, it makes me wonder why there is such a strong market for whiteners in cultures that have naturally darker, beautiful skin tones? Though the same can be said for this country -- think of the millions spent on self-tanning, fake tanning, etc every year, and the marketing for that...

MAC had a line that was Japan-only I believe, of lighteners -- similar line of skin care... Perhaps every culture has some that want to alter their skintone, not necessarily due to race issues. I really hope not. I can be an idealist and say that I wish everyone could be content with what they have because every skin tone is amazing and gorgeous in its own way... but we'll always have a grass is always greener mentality, I am sure.

A few women mentioned lightening of scars, etc, and I am sure that is exactly what it's useful for but I do not think the original question should be overlooked. To read her question and have your immediate response be "oh but the line sounds nice" is overlooking the major issue, the original query, which is a totally fair and honest question. Is it masked racism? Attacking her and making generalizations about people "making a big deal out of every little issue" is innapropriate. Is this not a forum for people of color, on a site which discusses every aspect of the cosmetics company in discussion?

If you could not question this, and make your own decisions based on your personal thoughts, what kind of society would this be?

Discussions like this are bound to get heated but I think people deserve more respect than is sometimes given.

-mollie

 

[MAC_Whore]

I guess I'm late to the party....

I know the OP addressed this to "Beauties of Color", a category that I don't fall into, but I have something to say none the less.

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Originally Posted by faifai ....I do think the whole "being lighter is better" thing is still a problem, but every color has similar problems (like what's happening to people who are very pale...these days they get told they look ghastly and "need to get a tan!"). Either way it is unhealthy. .....The solution to both would be to promote loving oneself just as you are.....

Well said. I personally understood the Lightful line to lessen hyperpigmentation on all skin types. I personally look forward to it. I need it to undo the damage of some discoloration from tanning in my youth to try to fit to a mold of what I thought I had to be. There is another angle of this product to ponder.

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Originally Posted by f1rewater To me the American beauty standard is a humongous fantasy that cannot be representative of any race or ethnic group because as far as i can tell it goes something like this: You have to be thin, but be careful because then you can be too thin and get called anorexic. If big boobs and butts don't come naturally to you, you better go get some cause they're hot, but careful you don't want them to be too big cause then you are just fat and blobby. Full lips are sexy, but not too full cause then you are a monkey. You have to be white, but not pale, that's gross and you look sick, but don't go too dark or you risk looking too "ethnic". Blondes are hot, but dumb, dark-haired girls are sultry vixens, but then again blondes have more fun no? ... Seriously who can keep up? I don't care if the way i look is "in" or "out", my body and my color (or lack thereof) are not fashion accesories like a handbag or a pair of shoes. I stopped giving a rat's caboose about the way advertisements/media/fashion think i should look like a long time ago.

I am a white woman who gave up on tanning and damaging my skin / health to fit a mold that I must be darker. My sister is an NC45 who wears sunscreen for the same reason....health. My other sister who is from Korea loves to tan. It all comes down to what is important to you. Everyone needs to do what makes them feel better. Media be damned. Sociatal pressure only wins when you let it. Be the kind of beautiful you want to be.

I think that the feelings that MAC or cosmetic companies exclude products for certain colours of skin is way too subjective to quantify. A lot of it has to do with what a woman perceives she can or can't pull off. Or it is an issue of personal taste. At one point, 97% of my clients were black women. I really feel like we learned a lot from each other. We opened each others eyes.

To move on to another topic:

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Originally Posted by OnaFyre ............I think we all just got comfortable here at Specktra as a place to air some of that publicly with other people of color who are interested in makeup, but perhaps Specktra isn't a safe place for that...

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Originally Posted by ARmakeupjunkie ..... I believe it's safe to say that now, Specktra is divided and will never be in harmony again.

There is no reason anyone should feel that is the case. To truly examine an issue, to truly do it justice, you need to look at it from all angles. We owe it to ourselves to look at all of the angles. How can you truly know an issue if you don't scratch the surface?

 

[Macnarsandlove]

the off-topicness and the level of that this thread has desended is nuts. this wont change ppls thinking no matter what.

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Originally Posted by ARmakeupjunkie How funny that you would think that some People of color are the most racist. Last time I checked, we were not the ones wearing white robes and hoods down town, on a Saturday, the day of both university graduations when there are thounsands of people in from all over the country to see their loves one graduate or handing out fliers on your local Wal-Mart parking lot. It's the reason my Dad does not go to Wal-Mart today. But, that's just my opinion. And no, I would not care if there was a WET, White Entertainment Teleivision, because I watch CMT and I love NASCAR. This thread was never about race until a few people added their two cents and tried to make it about race. I believe it's safe to say that now, Specktra is divided and will never be in harmony again.

and on a separate note WORD.^

 

[Hawkeye]

We'll all be fine and friends again soon. We just have to get over ourselves and our PC mentality long enough to realize that hey- you know not everything is about race and if you do have a question then I think this should be a safe place to put an answer but again we can't get past our PC selves enough to do so!